3600 Grafts - Dr Koray Erdogan 13th March 2018

[Payam]

19 hours ago, Melvin-Moderator said:

Payam,

You have been saying the results are a failure since 4 months, it still has time to turn around yes even at 7 months. In addition, your result IMO does not look unnatural, the hairline is sparse yes, it lacks density without a doubt, but the hairline has single hair follicular units and the angles aren’t misplaced. With that said, like I said before; if things do not change at 12 months I will personally contact Dr. Erdogan. However, I have seen improvements every month, so there’s definitely time and hope. 

I suppose you are right in that i felt something was wrong from the start.. i became discouraged and worried by the fact he had so many patients a day, and how little you actually saw the doctor, I genuinely thought I would sit and discuss my case with him, present and future for a length of time, and those very young girls performing the extractions.. i don't know

I appreciate the optimism, I can't see it happening through, I look every day for new sprouts in the 2 first cm of the hairline and see nothing.. it just looks really bad in natural light due to my dark thick hair and low density, i need more grafts, trying to get in contact with konoir to no avail.

 

[Payam]

On 10/9/2018 at 12:45 PM, garethbale said:

I’d be annoyed as well Payam.  Clearly not enough of the grafts have grown (so far) and I think it’s very patronising for people to tell you your expectations were unrealistic.  Looking at your immediate post op pics you would expect very good density from that.

I would wait a couple of months more though before you assess the final result however.  In the meantime I do think you should use toppik or some kind of concealer which will make the result appear thicker and more natural.  I don’t se ewhy it’s such a chore as you only need to do it once in the morning. 

Also get on meds if you are not already.  Your pre-op pics show you have good hair on the crown and meds should thicken that up, reducing the need for further work.

good luck mate! 

Thank you bro, it really is frustrating being accused of this and that.. I'm trying to get some second opinions on why this could have happened but not sure who to ask.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Payam

[Sean]

Payam, hang in there man.  Hope your goals are addressed when this is all done.  

[JayLDD]

16 hours ago, Payam said:

I suppose you are right in that i felt something was wrong from the start.. i became discouraged and worried by the fact he had so many patients a day, and how little you actually saw the doctor, I genuinely thought I would sit and discuss my case with him, present and future for a length of time, and those very young girls performing the extractions.. i don't know

I appreciate the optimism, I can't see it happening through, I look every day for new sprouts in the 2 first cm of the hairline and see nothing.. it just looks really bad in natural light due to my dark thick hair and low density, i need more grafts, trying to get in contact with konoir to no avail.

 

"I genuinely thought I would sit and discuss my case with him, present and future for a length of time"

 

You did and all his patients do, why say things which aren't true and wind yourself up further?  If its a time issue, what difference is an hour discussion going to make to covering it in fifteen minutes?  Yes he does multiple patients per day, but you spent ten grand on a procedure, the idea that you didn't read patient experiences, go on Youtube or read the details clearly that the clinic present about this in your booking is absurd. Sorry, but there's no other way of putting it. And what difference does it make if they're young girls or young men? They're all look mid twenties to mid thirties from what I saw, 99% of transplant clinics use women as surgical technicians and assistants, again you're looking to create problems in your head where there isn't one. Are women in their early twenties not equipped to perform a task which is mostly based on hand eye coordination, basic procedural understanding,  long term experience and fine motor skills? Think through what you're saying, because it sounds ridiculous a lot of the time.

 

And I think you misinterpret what Melvin is saying, he's not pretending that your result so far is great or that it would be an acceptable final result, but rather that the work isn't unnatural, your donor is still in good shape, you've evidently had growth it just isn't as dense as it could be, and its improving month by month. In the case that your result isn't up to scratch,  the clinic offers a 90% guarantee specifically because they're open about the fact that there are a small group of unlucky patients that don't get results they hoped for, so you can't pretend you weren't aware of the risks. Is a touchup the end of the world? No. Were you aware going into the procedure that every surgeon has poor results and perfect growth isn't a guarantee? Yes you most certainly were and the clinic says as much.

 

No one can know why a result doesn't turn out perfectly and those pretending to you are pathetic salesman trying to feed their ego and get you in the door for your wallet, nothing more. I've seen everything from virtually zero growth, technical issues like poor angulation and donor depletion, or even necrosis among many top surgeons globally including those in the United States and Canada, many of which charge more than double what ASMED does.  I'm not putting anyone down, but I've seen multiple poor Cooley results here (a surgeon double the price) in the past 6 months including one with more grafts than you, and the patients were still emotionally collected and calm. There are zero reason a poor result has to lead to accusations of misconduct, being treated poorly or saying your result was "botched", because in your case for example its just not true.

 

Don't kid yourself into thinking that you've been badly treated, the clinic wants you to get a good result just as you do. Everyone here wants you to get a result in fact, but you don't think through what you say and fling mud in a situation where a clear head would benefit you 10x more. If you had gone with Konior to begin with for example, it would absolutely not have "guaranteed" a better or a good result, but it would have guaranteed a surgery 3 times the price. Either way, none of this is the end of the world and you'll be best suited to deal with it with a calmer mentality. The reality is that you've had a net gain with this surgery and hair restoration is a journey, not a once off. Hopefully down the track you can get the result you hoped for, but its not a guarantee no matter who the surgeon. Sean who posted here went to a surgeon multiple times who has produced countless incredible results and still didn't achieve one that was acceptable for him. You can't always  know the reasoning as to why a result doesn't turn out well or if it would in future. 

 

Edited October 11, 2018 by JeanLDD

[Mick50]

20 hours ago, Payam said:

I suppose you are right in that i felt something was wrong from the start.. i became discouraged and worried by the fact he had so many patients a day, and how little you actually saw the doctor, I genuinely thought I would sit and discuss my case with him, present and future for a length of time, and those very young girls performing the extractions.. i don't know

 I appreciate the optimism, I can't see it happening through, I look every day for new sprouts in the 2 first cm of the hairline and see nothing.. it just looks really bad in natural light due to my dark thick hair and low density, i need more grafts, trying to get in contact with konoir to no avail.

  

Hi payam ,   I agree with Melvin and Jean that you haven't been botched and of course the density in the hair-line isn't great but as has been said to you I'm sure Dr Erdogan will make things good for you if you don't see a marked improvement by 12 months  .

As you have admitted yourself you weren't properly equipped to deal with the emotional roller coaster that having a transplant can be for a lot of guys, actually for me I was pretty cool with the whole post op thing ,but then again as a diffused NW 6 not unless I was totally botched depleted donor ,pitting etc  I was pretty sure it would be an improvement ,even if I didn't get the density which fortunately I did ..

One point I think you need to think about when approaching  other clinics I wouldn't mention where you had your transplant or that you have been writing about how unhappy you are with the outcome etc on here ,a lot of clinics will run a mile if they perceive a patient as being neurotic and is prepared to go public before properly discussing things with them ,which actually is how it should be, especially before the 12 months is up ,so I would bear that in mind when/if approaching other recommended Docs ,of course  less reputable clinics will have no problem and take your money regardless.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Mick50

[Payam]

5 hours ago, JeanLDD said:

"I genuinely thought I would sit and discuss my case with him, present and future for a length of time"

 

You did and all his patients do, why say things which aren't true and wind yourself up further?  If its a time issue, what difference is an hour discussion going to make to covering it in fifteen minutes?  Yes he does multiple patients per day, but you spent ten grand on a procedure, the idea that you didn't read patient experiences, go on Youtube or read the details clearly that the clinic present about this in your booking is absurd. Sorry, but there's no other way of putting it. And what difference does it make if they're young girls or young men? They're all look mid twenties to mid thirties from what I saw, 99% of transplant clinics use women as surgical technicians and assistants, again you're looking to create problems in your head where there isn't one. Are women in their early twenties not equipped to perform a task which is mostly based on hand eye coordination, basic procedural understanding,  long term experience and fine motor skills? Think through what you're saying, because it sounds ridiculous a lot of the time.

 

And I think you misinterpret what Melvin is saying, he's not pretending that your result so far is great or that it would be an acceptable final result, but rather that the work isn't unnatural, your donor is still in good shape, you've evidently had growth it just isn't as dense as it could be, and its improving month by month. In the case that your result isn't up to scratch,  the clinic offers a 90% guarantee specifically because they're open about the fact that there are a small group of unlucky patients that don't get results they hoped for, so you can't pretend you weren't aware of the risks. Is a touchup the end of the world? No. Were you aware going into the procedure that every surgeon has poor results and perfect growth isn't a guarantee? Yes you most certainly were and the clinic says as much.

 

No one can know why a result doesn't turn out perfectly and those pretending to you are pathetic salesman trying to feed their ego and get you in the door for your wallet, nothing more. I've seen everything from virtually zero growth, technical issues like poor angulation and donor depletion, or even necrosis among many top surgeons globally including those in the United States and Canada, many of which charge more than double what ASMED does.  I'm not putting anyone down, but I've seen multiple poor Cooley results here (a surgeon double the price) in the past 6 months including one with more grafts than you, and the patients were still emotionally collected and calm. There are zero reason a poor result has to lead to accusations of misconduct, being treated poorly or saying your result was "botched", because in your case for example its just not true.

Don't kid yourself into thinking that you've been badly treated, the clinic wants you to get a good result just as you do. Everyone here wants you to get a result in fact, but you don't think through what you say and fling mud in a situation where a clear head would benefit you 10x more. If you had gone with Konior to begin with for example, it would absolutely not have "guaranteed" a better or a good result, but it would have guaranteed a surgery 3 times the price. Either way, none of this is the end of the world and you'll be best suited to deal with it with a calmer mentality. The reality is that you've had a net gain with this surgery and hair restoration is a journey, not a once off. Hopefully down the track you can get the result you hoped for, but its not a guarantee no matter who the surgeon. Sean who posted here went to a surgeon multiple times who has produced countless incredible results and still didn't achieve one that was acceptable for him. You can't always  know the reasoning as to why a result doesn't turn out well or if it would in future. 

 

It is the unknown variables that is keeping my up at night, I need to know what went wrong and based on what I've read on realself from other surgeons it is most likely mishandling of grafts, which is why I got stuck on the techs. If I had a bad result with konoir I wouldn't have acted like this because then I would be sure it wasn't his fault, the same had been true if Dr Koray had performed the whole surgery on me, or at least had been present in the room. I wanted him to watch over me that day. I really am not lying I truly thought the whole day would be focused on me, i had not done my research.

You're right though, I really wish I had been more level headed and calm in this thread, the anxiety is overwhelming and I am constantly self conscious over my hair looking pluggy and unnatural. I really don't mean to sling mud, I am trying to explain things from my perspective and I'm sorry if that comes across as trying to sling mud at the clinic.

The clinic has been as accommodating as possible, I even have a direct email contact with Dr Koray, but he feels I am trying to ruin the clinics reputation which I can completely understand why he would think that but again, I am trying to explain this ordeal from my experience and am NOT trying to sling mud.

Ultimately going back to Asmed might be a bad decision, clearly what they are doing is working great for others, you and many people that posted in this thread included, but not for me. 

[VicTNYC]

Should you choose to go for another procedure with another clinic after the 12-18months from this procedure has passed, it might help answer some questions with this procedure.

1. If you go to another clinic and get another procedure and experience similar results in the similar time frames, then, you just might come to see that it is the possibility that the lackluster results from both procedures is due to your biology and not the fault of either chosen clinics.

2. On the flip-side, if your results are obviously much better from any 2nd procedure at a different clinic and at similar growth and healing time frames, then, your original concerns from the first clinic definitely show merit and you deserve a proper resolution.

But, i really do hope that things do turn around for you in another 4-8 months time with much better results, and hopefully makes you happier. 

 

[Payam]

5 hours ago, VicTNYC said:

Should you choose to go for another procedure with another clinic after the 12-18months from this procedure has passed, it might help answer some questions with this procedure.

1. If you go to another clinic and get another procedure and experience similar results in the similar time frames, then, you just might come to see that it is the possibility that the lackluster results from both procedures is due to your biology and not the fault of either chosen clinics.

2. On the flip-side, if your results are obviously much better from any 2nd procedure at a different clinic and at similar growth and healing time frames, then, your original concerns from the first clinic definitely show merit and you deserve a proper resolution.

But, i really do hope that things do turn around for you in another 4-8 months time with much better results, and hopefully makes you happier. 

 

Appreciate it man, I will try to book with another clinic soon, hopefully I won't need too many grafts. I would settle for a semi-decent result at this stage, at least so I can't see so much of my scalp. And the clinic I book with should be able to see roughly what my yield was from this surgery as well.

 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Payam

[Payam]

Took these today. Don't think I can go out without toppik, anyone have tips for concealers? Something that is a bit easier to apply and doesn't make such a mess, from a spray bottle would be nice

Edited October 11, 2018 by Payam

[Sean]

Have you tried any other concealer other than toppik?  Couvre?  Nanogen?  The spray applicatir reallyvhelps get inbetween some hairs in low density areas, but i agree.  The sink is a mess and the it sometimes get in your nose.  So much fucken effort just to apply this krap.  Youblose like 40 min to an hour.  The best you can hope is you do not sweat, there isnt a windy day, or it does not rain.  Such a time consuming hassle that really frustrates folks.  Worst feeling is to use these products when you actually had a transplant to remedy that zone where you are now again applying that fucken product.

[Melvin- Admin]

Apply the toppik in your midscalp and use a thin tooth comb, as you brush your hair with the comb it will start to gather fiber, then use the comb on your hairline. This gently coats the hairline without making it clumpy. Also, I’ve had concealer in heavy rain and wind it doesn’t move. The trick id to use a a pomade or wax and ultra hold hair spray. Personally, I use bed head hard head. I can literally dunk my head in water and it won’t run.

I dont use concealer in my hairline, but I use it in the crown and sides. Honestly, I took 40min to an hour when I had hair in high school and it hasn’t changed. I’d rather have the option of making myself look good rather than just being bald or having a sloppy hairstyle. 

[hanginginthewire]

1 hour ago, Payam said:

Took these today. Don't think I can go out without toppik, anyone have tips for concealers? Something that is a bit easier to apply and doesn't make such a mess, from a spray bottle would be nice

This is without concealer?  I feel like it looks pretty great....

[FarsanUk]

8 minutes ago, jonyny said:

First of all i m sorry for you. but you are only 7 months.Do you think you wait enough? it's hard at 7 months and  wanna see you final result, my hair started to look better only after 23 months.and bealive me it looks way much better now then back at 7 months.How do you think your hair should look at 7 months? 

Joyny how are you? Did it really improve alot ? I thought you are going for repair ? I went to asmed last week my photos are in the link 

[VicTNYC]

If these new photos you’ve posted are without concealer then I would say it looks to be improving, which is always a good sign.

[Payam]

15 hours ago, jonyny said:

First of all i m sorry for you. but you are only 7 months.Do you think you wait enough? it's hard at 7 months and  wanna see you final result, my hair started to look better only after 23 months.and bealive me it looks way much better now then back at 7 months.How do you think your hair should look at 7 months? 

It's a bit different though as my issue is graft survival, yours look like most your grafts survived when i looked at your old thread, you had really nice density. I think i can expect some improvement in the coming months, but it won't be enough even for an average result, especially not on the left side where it looks like i had a terrible yield..

[Melvin- Admin]

Payam,

Are your last photos without concealer?

[Payam]

19 hours ago, Melvin-Moderator said:

Payam,

Are your last photos without concealer?

I have some toppik there, like I said I can't go out without it

[Payam]

Month 7

Probably no point in this update since I've posted so regularly. I took pictures if both sides and some closeups, trying to show the gaps in density with these pictures. Also adding a post op picture for comparison. It makes me sad to see the post op and what I currently have, I think the front is a bit better in terms of growth, the right side looks better than the left which has too few hairs to even slick the hair, I have to cover it. I had more hair on the right to start with though. The full face picture is of the "good" side.  I can't see any new sprouts anymore, not sure how many % of the implanted grafts are growing at this point, I'm sure someone more experienced could make a rough assessment by looking at the post op. I know I have to wait 5 more months before taking action but I would like to plan ahead and book someone right now, I have no problems using toppik on the crown and midscalp, but applying toppik to the hairline is a huge pain and you are constantly self conscious about how it looks, I can't live with that and need to fix it in a couple of months.

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Payam

[fortuneplant]

1 hour ago, Payam said:

Month 7

...I can't see any new sprouts anymore...I know I have to wait 5 more months before taking action but I would like to plan ahead and book someone right now, I have no problems using toppik on the crown and midscalp, but applying toppik to the hairline is a huge pain and you are constantly self conscious about how it looks, I can't live with that and need to fix it in a couple of months.

Wait a couple of months before you make any decision for another operation. Hair takes time to go from stringy to normal.  (I attached my pic. The texture - among others -  is noticeably different between 7th and 11th month.)

A lot of sprouts cannot be seen with the naked eye. I bought a digital microscope on month 4 just to satisfy my curiosity/anxiety that I have hair growing on my head;  you can get one online priced pretty reasonably,  about US$20 tops.

Edited October 13, 2018 by fortuneplant

[Payam]

1 hour ago, fortuneplant said:

Wait a couple of months before you make any decision for another operation. Hair takes time to go from stringy to normal.  (I attached my pic. The texture - among others -  is noticeably different between 7th and 11th month.)

A lot of sprouts cannot be seen with the naked eye. I bought a digital microscope on month 4 just to satisfy my curiosity/anxiety that I have hair growing on my head;  you can get one online priced pretty reasonably,  about US$20 tops.

Hey is that you in the picture? What a great result you got, happy for you bro. I really do need a touch up though unless i have an explosion of sprouts which i doubt, but i will wait until month 8 or 9 before i book as i think any staggering sprouts should at least be visible by then. 

[Melvin- Admin]

It's definitely improving, if you go back to see how it looked before without a doubt you have had growth, I don't see why that wouldn't continue up until 12 months stay patient.

[BigBen]

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 11:14 PM, Melvin-Moderator said:

Yea, IMO you probably should’ve never opted for surgery. Your expectations and outlook I don’t think is suited for surgery tbh. I hope that you can somehow come to terms with your results which so far isn’t great, but definitely is not a “botch” job as you view it. 

I apply toppik in my crown at least 3-4 x a week and I honestly have no problem with it, I also take 20-30 min to get my hair looking perfect. That’s just who I am and as I embarked on this journey it was never my outlook to seek perfection or with the thought that I would never have to worry about my hair again. I thought if only I could have more hair and have some options or at least have the ability to use toppik I would be happy. It’s a difference in a perspective, wish you the best I hope you can find some peace of mind. 

However, Melvin, your hairline is great. I know you had more than one surgery, I have checked your threads, but the reason why Payam is dissatisfied is because of the low density in the hairline. As everyone says, hopefully it improves in the next months as the final result is expected one year after the HT. If one year later he still looks like this he would need a touch up for his hairline to be nice.

[Squidward]

I cant help but to think you chose a good an honest clinic, Dr. Erdogan is very involved in the hair transplant science and with helping with new innovations in the field. A lot of doctors from my search in finding one, especially in USA (where I am from) are far more expensive and do not offer any kind of guarantee (I have had quite a few e-mail consultations with Dr's here in America asking about guarantee if the procedure failed, and most do not offer any guarantee.) Erdogan has tons of stellar results and yes some are not as great, but for one you paid way less, and two, he is willing to help fix the issue, which in my mind is one of the deciding factors, I would hate to pay 3x more for a Dr. in America and yield poor results with a "hey not everyone is the same sorry" than pay less and still have a Dr. willing to help you reach your goals. Whether it's 10 grand or 30, its still a ton of money especially for the average person, I can only think it is ethical for that money to come with a little bit of a guarantee, especially when dealing with a type of surgery that does not always yield satisfactory results.A 90% guarantee is very generous. I cant see with this type of guarantee where a Dr. wouldn't be doing everything in his power to give every patient the best results, because it is time and money against his clinic when he has to have a patient back to perform touch ups to meet the guarantee. I think this alone should speak for the skill of the tech's involved, whether they are young or not, Im sure Dr. Erdogan doesn't want case after case of free touch ups due to failed procedures going on.

[BigBen]

@SquidwardYes, Asmed also wrote me an email explaining that the guarantee is 90% of survival rate and that they believe that most of the times the survival rate is higher. That is one of the reasons why I chose them. If you get +90% survival rate you get a great result (at worst 10% fewer grafts which shouldn't be too bad) and if you don't get 90% they fix it for you.

So @Payam, think about this, you have that guarantee too, but I assume that you have to wait one year for that.

Edited October 13, 2018 by BigBen

[fortuneplant]

8 hours ago, Payam said:

Hey is that you in the picture? What a great result you got, happy for you bro. I really do need a touch up though unless i have an explosion of sprouts which i doubt, but i will wait until month 8 or 9 before i book as i think any staggering sprouts should at least be visible by then. 

Yes. That's me. The point of the pic is that hair changes, month to month - texture, growth, density. Like you, I was contemplating a touch up even at the 9th month but then everything came together for me at the 11th month.

Right now you just got to suck it up and let some time pass. Your hair need to mature first so you can make a decision that's more based on facts than emotion.

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by fortuneplant