JayLDD

Projection.

This type of extremist rhetoric tends to push moderates further to the right because of how evidently ludicrous it is with even just a bit of common sense. When PC moves to a point where you deny basic statistical facts on the basis of people getting offended, you ultimately help elect people like Trump and Bolsonaro. You're also overcomplicating a problem that isn't complicated; on the hair colour hair issue, how many Sudanese people for example are born with red hair for example? https://www.worlddata.info/average-penissize.php Out of interest I assume you consider the above data a result of culture and not biology then? To be honest the issue isn't completely off topic either, its a relevant consideration to who are the top surgeons when judging results. There's a certain surgeon in India for example who typically achieves good cosmetic results on Indian patients however is packing at significantly lower density than other well known surgeons, and it shows visually from the work he does on white patients.

Unfortunate that its one of the stupidest things you've read on the forum, because it also happens to be true. Obviously as a generalisation of course.

The point isn't what you're suggesting it is. Payam has quite literally said on other forums for example that you'll get butchered if you go to ASMED, they don't stand by their work, the majority are getting bad work etc. Absurd and factually incorrect criticisms. The fact is there are still hundreds of happy patients who have received top-tier work, in terms of the 5000 graft FUE cases there are no other surgeons *period* that are doing this type of work, still with immaculate donor areas. That's all highlander is emphasising, countering the ludicrous suggestion that they're a bad clinic and don't back their results. There are a significant number of people that are very happy, Payam is clearly trying to steer people away from the clinic and often with dishonesty, its fair enough that people who are happy offer an alternative view of their experience with ASMED. To pretend that its "attacking" anyone is silly. If your result isn't up to standard (even your own personal standard) imo especially when they're working on 6 patients a day they should and would be willing to find a remedy. In Payam's case they were and would be willing to do so, however he turned the option down and decided to continue attacking the clinic often with information that's downright false. If you go to the clinic and get a poor result, then don't accept the help they offer (I suspect the touchups like in PlanetS's case are completely free) then go somewhere else and get the issues fixed. Payam says he has the money for a fix and has surgeons who he much prefers, at this point it appears he enjoys complaining more than he desires a better result. Its a small amount of grafts that would get him to a very good result, there's no reason in the world for him not to proceed with that assuming he's truthful about the financial aspect. The other criticism is that Payam in particular only shows the hair from one angle in his videos, extreme closeups in very harsh lighting in photos, often has wet hair, combs the transplanted area in the opposite direction to the flow of the rest of the hair, and in general clearly wants to make the result look worse. If you have nothing to hide and the result is poor, then show it like a normal person. Its not hard. His result is below par no one denies it, but its helpful to stop hiding reality. In your case I would certainly expect more growth, however you're still a long while from final results and I don't believe for a second that if you're unhappy and it doesn't improve they wouldn't be willing to offer a remedy. You aren't crazy to complain, but to pretend that below-par density doesn't occur occasionally among every surgeon on this forum including the cream of the crop makes you most certainly sound uninformed.

Interesting that you (maybe a rep) started to reuse this account specifically to criticise Erdogan results, two in particular where the lighting or angles literally don't show a even close to enough information to suggest the results are pluggy. Not getting as many customers as you'd like lately? I wouldn't have mentioned it because there are certainly surgeons who I think do more refined hairline work, but here are some of your own recent examples of hairline work: Pretty pathetic having to resort to making false judgements based on photos in poor lighting of another doctors work (that realistically are top-tier results) when these are the results you're putting out for the public to see. Comes across as pure jealousy or worry about your own business, because certainly the criticisms are absurd. I'd recommend spending a quarter of the profit you're making from a single procedure on a decent camera and training a staff member to take before and after photos that don't look like they belong in 2005 also Dr. Mwamba.

Reminds me of this case but with literally half the grafts. Should still look good if every last graft grows though imo. At 4.5 months there's really nothing to judge, wait until 6 months minimum before you even have any idea of what you're dealing with. Most definitely it is a small number of grafts for the area however. Sometimes a doctor that does slightly less refined work with more grafts is better for cases like this, but interested to see how it turns out.

I thought it was incredibly unlikely that you had gone from what appears like 20%ish yield of grafts to an above par result when your last post was at 8 months. I'm not saying that to be insulting or to knock your doctor as I'd happily have gone to him myself, but I specifically brought it up here to emphasise that a bad result isn't relegated to surgeons that use techs for extractions or non Americans. Cooley is widely respected by virtually everyone but your result and the other I posted there clearly show that being an American or having more doctor participation in a surgery doesn't guarantee good results like some here are trying to pretend. If I'm wrong and it drastically improved from 8 months feel free to post it I'm sure a lot of people would be interested. If some people spent the amount of time researching doctors and results as they do whining or complaining here they'd figure out that there isn't a 100% chance of a good result no matter the doctor. The success rate is for 90%+ growth is likely only just above the 80% mark for even top surgeons. But of course people only want to look and compare themselves to top results in favourable lighting and styling conditions while ignoring any other relevant factors or actual patient posted result success rates among a variety of surgeons. I do think Payam's result is evidently below-par but its probably telling that he refuses to post pics or video from different angles and combs the bad side in the opposite direction to how the rest of the hairs flows.

The sentiment of always doing proper research and not putting price as the only consideration is worthwhile but all the photos of butchery in this article look to me like they're from the US or UK. Most of the butchery I see is from the US and UK even in the present day. Not to say that there isn't a lot of terrible work and butchered donors in Turkey, India etc, but the bigger danger imo is to pretend that white people and government regulation is somehow equatable to a guaranteed good result or even that you're in safe hands. The article mentions registered surgeons, you can be a registered surgeon and never have performed hair transplant surgery in your life. The only surgeons doing consistently high quality work in the UK imo are Reddy and Ball, however both are largely focused on smaller cases and far more conservative approaches than what is possible elsewhere. I'd pick a bottom budget clinic like Acar or Cinik's in Turkey over 99% of UK clinics.

Dr. Wong does some of the best crown work in the world, I'd likely consider him over Konior for this specific case on basis of the types of results they produce, especially considering Konior's extensive waiting list I'd say its a no-brainer. Got to be the funniest list of options I've ever read though. One of the most highly regarded (probably most in the US) and meticulous surgeons in the world, an industry pioneer and the most referred to speciality crown surgeon globally, and then the dude who gets his license suspended for claiming he is Jesus Christ and attacking a patient. https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/health/2014/11/25/hair-transplant-surgeon-claims-jesus-attacks-man/70123254/

Its not hard to find, just Google the names.

I might have mentioned this and read it from one of his (old?) reps on another forum, however the numbers suggested were from up to 70 in the past, and presently around 45-55 due to potential for growth and safety issues beyond this, but not 30-35.

WTF? This patient has *literally* 5% growth in a 4350 graft case, at least judging from the frontal third. What does this have to do with styling or the topic of the other thread? This is not "disappointing, nor is it "lackluster", he's blown 4350 FUE grafts with sub 10% growth, and been offered only 500-1000 grafts by the surgeon. That is a disaster. Not sure why you feel the need to act like you have no sense of reading comprehension, no set of eyes, and a brain with an IQ below 65, I'm sure you are smart enough to figure this out. I don't get what your problem is, do you just enjoy disagreeing with me for the sake of it or coming across like a sarcastic idiot? Just for reference in case you forget while scrolling down the page, this is the result we are referring to.

What on earth are some here talking about, virtually nothing has grown at the front, absolutely less than 10%. People are saying the crown took... well on what photos are people basing this? None actually clearly show before or afters of the crown. I genuinely have not seen a single good result from a first pass from this surgeon and have repeated that many times. Is this seriously what people would call "underwhelming'? No that's what 4000 grafts down the toilet looks like. "In no way is it an absolute disaster." He blew 4350 grafts on a procedure where literally almost nothing grew and is now dealing with an ultra low outline of a hairline that is getting towards female hairline territory in shape. In terms of growth this is a clear example of a disaster. Large amount of grafts via FUE, and under 10% growth with an ultra aggressive hairline. Regarding what OP said: " I expressed my desire for more density, and if it doesn't improve in that time frame, he was suggesting a touch-up between 500-1000 additional grafts," 500-1000 grafts to repair this is a joke. Realistically the number of grafts you'd need for reasonable density in the crown and frontal third here is quite literally around the 3000 graft mark. OP you should be consulting top FUT surgeons and avoid damaging what already looks like a below average donor with FUE any time soon. I'd look into Konior and Hasson/Wong in particular as some examples. Forget Nader and run elsewhere quickly before wasting more time + money and giving the knockout blow to your donor.

In my experience it’s really not a big deal. Being able to walk around in normal circumstances looking like you have no hairloss to the average person like in wind, sun after washing and styling etc is good enough and mostly achievable. Extreme closeups, harsh overhead bathroom lighting and wet hair are issues that don’t matter 99% of the time.

Hair transplants are an illusion and the nature of that relates to density, natural vs replaced. Hence it is the illusion of density. No trick or confusion here, you’re just being silly for whatever reason and playing nonsense word games. Have you had a transplant? Because it most certainly sounds like you havent. If you stand under harsh bathroom lights and look at your hairline after a successful transplant, you will be shocked at how thin it looks and understand the point. The point of the thread is obviously referencing HT014, Payam etc who post the most unflattering photos possible and make a deliberate effort to make results look worse with lighting, lengths, styling, not washing the hair, spreading it, extreme close ups etc. The photo Melvin initially posted shows this perfectly and I guarantee if a new poster showed that a lot of people would be calling for blood of the doctor thinking it was a bad result. Anyone who has had a transplant gets it, I personally can both make it look like I have a full head of hair or look like absolute shit through the above means. The reason is because of the level of density, and that is the illusion. Transplants often give you hair that can appear both severely balding or having virtually a full head of hair depending on conditions, a lot of people clearly refuse to understand this or the logic behind it. If people are posting crown results like that Couto in which the hair is combed for perfect coverage and never in opposing directions, while “wet” hair is with a spray bottle, to say that there’s no illusion proves a lot of people clearly don’t appreciate what illusion refers to. Clearly the clinic understands very well which is why they manipulate in this manner (although yes it is a terrific result). Not sure why you keep playing dumb, I guarantee you understand all this.

When you say temples do you specifically mean the side peaks at the sides or also the corners? The problem I'm referring to is visible above, with each 3 sections distinguishable. Its very clear this person has had a hair transplant because of the jarring change at the side temple peak due to the drastic change in texture and colour of the hair. Imo a patient should go to a surgeon that has experience implanting and rebuilding the entire temple point, or should leave them alone entirely. In this case only half of the temple point on the vertical has been rebuilt with low density implanted into existing areas and its created a mess of a transition as you can see. If your temple peaks are completely gone and recessed into themselves, then find a surgeon who isn't just going to place a few hundred hairs at the front of the peaks or towards the corner, but replace them entirely. Rahal, Hasson, and Erodgan do this often and there is a great lupanzula case here showing what I mean. If they aren't all that bad you're better off avoiding altogether due to potential issues with naturalness and focusing on the frontal hairline as it is the best useage of grafts to begin with.

It’s objectively an illusion. Do you think you can magically using the back of the head restore full original density to the top? Some of you people are being ridiculous. Try looking at a result post-shower (not the silly quick spray) with hair spread apart in different directions and you’ll understand. Try parting the hair in a manner like Payam or Melvin does in the original post for example and you’ll understand. Not to mention people are ignorantly ignoring hair and donor characteristics of Couto patients, which are mostly top-tier. The reality of the illusion doesn’t mean that you can’t expect with reasonable donor characteristics a head of hair that looks natural and doesn’t reflect hairloss, but it does mean that you have to find a way style it, wash it, get ideal lengths etc to make it look good. For a lot of people their personal idea of an ideal situation requires multiple procedures, period.

In that case I’d definitely strongly consider Lorenzo.

No definitely not, but I think it’s downright *moronic* to expect going into a transplant that you’re guaranteed a good result with any clinic, and that if you don’t get one you’re going to shit on the clinic. I show the poor Cooley results above because anyone who has done their research would understand that virtually any clinic no matter how highly regarded regularly gets poor results if you judge statistically (even roughly) across all surgeons. If 5-15% of results from virtually every surgeon are at a similar standard to Payams (they are and everyone should do proper research and stop focusing on top tier results) the hysteria here appears evidently insane. It’s also clearly not a disaster, the density is poor but he’s in a better position than preop and a 1500 graft touchup would likely get him in a very strong position. Payam has the right to complain his results are poor, but to say like he did on the other forum to everyone considering a procedure with Erdogan they “will be butchered” is ridiculous and reflects more poorly on him than the clinic. A normal person with basic understanding of success rates would have accepted and moved on or consulted rationally about a touchup/refund rather than shitting on them, being blatantly dishonest, often outright lying and then expecting sympathy.

I usually like your posts which are consistently helpful but come on, this is silly. Marketing fraud for what exactly? The fact that Payam can't read and misses the email correspondence and website material that nowhere says Koray does extractions (common in europe anyway), and specifically mentions a surgical team engaging in this? You can't claim marketing fraud for a below-par result or in Payam's case being wilfully illiterate. Also you mention "how silencing occurs", what silencing exactly? How is this not tilting at windmills? Not to mention the fact that Payam deliberately parts and combs his hair in the video in the most retarded way possible to forcefully make the result look worse. Melvin did a great job emphasising this type of thing here and anyone else who has had a transplant will understand. No excuse for not understanding this from people who should know better. Also to the people talking refunds, Payam's potentially pushed hundreds of people away off the back of a hell of a lot of dishonest, misleading or blatantly false information. The guy still can't post regular photos that aren't extreme closeups or in harsh bathroom lighting, parted ridiculously to avoid layering etc. No business in the world should refund a client/patient/customer who does this because it encourages people to make things up or in this case potentially assume that because they don't have an eighteen year olds density that they got screwed. If he acted like a decent and reasonable adult its a different story but no business should support or give credit someone who goes out of their way to turn people away off misleading info. He's literally posting on other forums saying not to go to the clinic because they will "be butchered". Sorry, anyone who thinks he should get a refund after that there's something wrong with your head. Also maybe someone can explain to me why these results are passed over and no one cares whether or not they're below par despite Cooley having less than a tenth the number of patient posted results, but Payam's result is the end of the world. Genuinely want to know. I'm sick of having to repeat it, but this is not a dig at Cooley, but a question on why poor results are perfectly fine with some doctors but others people immediately jump to the "muh techs" and accuse the doctor of not caring or doing it for the money etc. Not hard to be reasonable or be consistent. Both with yields visibly lower than Payam's, and no one cares despite these two being half of the patient posted Cooley results on this site from the around the last yearish.:

I would solely be looking at Lorenzo and Erdogan for FUE, but also consider Hattingen clinic and Hasson/Wong for FUT as a backup if you're not happy with either of those options. I think common Erdogan 5000+ graft type procedure would be ideal, and likely a second procedure worth considering beyond that also. I think relatively full coverage with a conservative hairline is easily possible. The main issue is time and money, also assuming that a first procedure goes well in terms of yield of graft survival.

"less than 1 % of his surgeries attain less than optimal results, so I believe one should expect 90+ growth in most cases." I've seen enough results from virtually every major surgeon to know that is absolute BS. The fact they said this is probably the most negative thing I've heard about the Rahal clinic in this whole thread. "However, top class docs are producing excellent, consistent results" It depends what you mean by consistency though. For virtually every surgeon I look at success rates tend to be around 5-15% even among top options. For the 9/10 people that get a good result (which happen to be the ones people focus on when booking a procedure) that's definitely the case. For the 1/10 that doesn't have a good result suddenly its a whole different story, and with 200-500 procedures a year that could be anywhere from 20-75 subpar results in a year. I remember seeing four Cooley patient posted results last year for example, two of them were very much subpar. It makes zero sense that somehow patient posted results on this forum have a higher rate of failure than their overall broader pool of results. The fact is for a lot of people they don't get good results despite a top end surgeon, period. Again I'm going off what I see in terms of stats in patient posted results. I guarantee 100% if anyone added up all the Rahal patient posted results on this website from over the past 3 years they'd reach the same conclusion. Also I again have to emphasise that if you're looking at a clinic like Lorenzo's, Erodan's or Diep's which are absolutely churning out huge amounts of posted results, its not exactly a surprise its easy to find duds, or that when you're comparing Konior who has *literally* less than a tenth of their results to look at online he has virtually no duds. Its very unlikely that a tech at Rahal or any other top surgeon that uses techs is one day going to yield terrific results, and suddenly forget how to do their job the next day. Its much more likely that there are other underlying reasons for said poor result. Look at Keser and Lupanzula who have their share of poor results, despite the fully hands on approach.

I read from one of Rahal's reps on another forum that Rahal has lowered the extent of his dense packing over the years as he felt it potentially compromised yields in some cases, while of course looking spectacular in others. In terms of recent cases, I don't think any surgeons are packing as Densely as Hasson in particular. Potentially 20% above what I see from any other surgeons in first pass procedures. OP, to be honest I think that at 6 months and looking at those close-ups it's unlikely this will down the track reach the point of an above par result, however I think the people that are being put off Rahal from this result don't understand statistics. More people need to wake up and do their research across multitudes of surgeons and patient posted results, because when they do they're likely to realise that the success rates in terms of above 90% yield hair transplants for 1-2/10 don't occur. This includes surgeons who do the full procedure themselves without technicians involved in surgical aspects, for that reason I find it extremely unlikely that bad results occur simply due to carelessness. Although I do find the slippery graft issue odd here. I lol every time I see someone mention Konior in terms of optimal success rates, he's an incredible surgeon and I myself would consider him strongly for a future procedure, but the guy has only 2-3 patient posted results each year. This isn't enough to make any sort of precise judgement on consistency when he's doing hundreds of procedures a year. Every surgeon that has 2-3x this many patient posted results similarly has plenty of sub-par results to look at, I doubt that's a coincidence. Tbh I also don't think Konior's hairlines are as aesthetic as Rahal's either, although both top-tier.

Flat no, time to get a transplant. If you're obsessed with blowing five grand on a procedure that no one in your case has got worthwhile cosmetic benefit out of in history, put it in Bitcoin instead and hope for the best. Most sensible option is to use that money to put towards going to the surgeon of your choice. You're likely going to require multiple transplants so its even more of a waste to put thousands of dollars into a treatment that won't help you if your current steroid level hairloss regimen doesn't. Go straight to HnW and forget anything like this which virtually amounts to the power of prayer.

No, because the length is completely different. The two photos I used are similar in lengths and lighting and the second more recent, therefore more accurate for referencing, also it wouldn't make a difference that its right after surgery. The one above is not directly below the harsher lighting shining directly on it and your hair looks much longer. But I really think you need to look at the professional quality post/preops that the clinic took, and if there are none that would be a serious red flag.