Is Hasson and Wong Still good? A horror story from Reddit. I have HT booked later this year and I'm a little concerned after reading this post.

[Legend007]

That being said .. it’s always best to point out bad results .. keep the clinic on top of their game. Or they get lackluster and unmotivated while banking millions from us.. 

 

[mister_25]

30 minutes ago, Legend007 said:

Why can’t we all get along. There’s going to be some bad and good results.. I was only 85 percent satisfied with my result too..  I was hoping to have that awesome hair like some of the pics in here. But reality is ,, it’s very rare to get that awesome full look  when we balding. 
 

I got 2500 grafts just into my hairline .. I was expecting more for my $20k.  But it’s actually not too bad .. I just leave my hair natural don’t put anything in it.. that’s just how I always wanted .. to be comfortable .. this my update for ya from h n w . After about 4 years and on finasteride . 
I always combed my hair forward like the Koreans pop stars ,, even before the transplant .. so I’m happy I can still comb it that way

Your hair looks awesome

[Melvin- Admin]

Dear Community,

I have reached out to @H & W Doug the individual in question I firmly believe is Qui Bono. Last week he requested I delete his profile. I deleted his profile yet again to help him move on, so unfortunately, he cannot respond here. But he’s welcome to post for his individual case. 

I believe in keeping a fair and balanced community. Part of keeping it fair and balanced is allowing the clinic to respond. In my time as a moderator, I’ve seen poor results from the best surgeons. Hasson and Wong, in my experience, are an ethical clinic. Many are pointing out at Nordsters case. But no one mentions what he said about H&W standing by their work.

 

Let's stay level-headed until we hear back from the clinic. 

Onwards and Upwards,

[Rafael Manelli]

19 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Dear Community,

I have reached out to @H & W Doug the individual in question I firmly believe is Qui Bono. Last week he requested I delete his profile. I deleted his profile yet again to help him move on, so unfortunately, he cannot respond here. But he’s welcome to post for his individual case. 

I believe in keeping a fair and balanced community. Part of keeping it fair and balanced is allowing the clinic to respond. In my time as a moderator, I’ve seen poor results from the best surgeons. Hasson and Wong, in my experience, are an ethical clinic. Many are pointing out at Nordsters case. But no one mentions what he said about H&W standing by their work.

 

Let's stay level-headed until we hear back from the clinic. 

Onwards and Upwards,

I was impressed by how Dr Hasson stuck by Nordster, personally. Goes to show how integrity and care can salvage even a worrying outcome with dubious planning.

[Gatsby]

4 hours ago, stephcurry30 said:

I completely disagree here Gatsby. getting outside information from other sources and experiences is a valuable tool. In fact science and many surgeon that i consulted with mentioned going through different websites and experiences to find as much information on the clinic and doctors themselves. I think this statement is a little bit contradictory of the hair transplant community as research is a vital part about obtaining a surgeon and success surgery. 

@stephcurry30 as an ex butchered patient myself, I have a very real vested interest in protecting young vulnerable guys risking going through what I went through that began at the age of eighteen! I also have a vested interested in supporting patients who have been butchered just as much, as you would know the lengths that I have gone through over a 37 year period. As I stated in my post I wrote that 'I had not read through the thread' and I was responding to the topic. As to the hair transplant community it is made up of a lot more than just the internet and forums. My experience with reddit has been pathetic at best. I have tried to help there and I have simply been questioned there for my integrity (from one of the mods of all people who claims to know me) and not to mention my actual identity. My time is too valuable so I won't be wasting it there. Everyone has the right to anonymity. But when people like myself post pictures, videos, audios, interviews, podcasts, etc of myself it's fairly obvious to see that I am genuine and I don't feel the need to hide behind an avatar which brings me to my next point. The amount of people who troll, have fake accounts and have nothing but pure malice are legion in 'the hair transplant community.' How do you control for these 'variables' in a science driven approach? You can't can you as long as we have anonymity and people that are not prepared to disclose, or are hiding, their true identity. As to a patient's complaint on forums/social media you will know that I am the first to ask someone 'who did the work' in order to prevent others from making the same mistake. As to this complaint about Dr Wong it has now been addressed via the correct channels (which don't require a lynch mob) and I have every confidence that Dr Wong has been made aware of it at the very least. Finally as to the people (real or fake) who have chimed in with their own agendas enough said!

[2Bulls]

I was watching this unfold on Reddit and became curious if it was mentioned here. The HairTransplants subreddit is kind of a clusterf**k and the moderator Wallaby strikes me as a little unreliable. So I wanted to come here, to what seems like the adult end of the pool, and get some perspective because my head is spinning from all the comments and posts there. 
 

I agree with @Gatsby that it’s a bit of a cesspool.

This poster, with all of his alias’s and evolving story, gives me concern. While I don’t think anyone should be subjected to a traumatic experience, and in an ideal world there would be no miscommunication between clinic and patient, doctor and patient, doctor and staff, and patient and staff; running a business, any kind of business, that deals with the public, carries a pretty high risk of communication and clerical error. This just happens. Especially when dealing with cosmetics. And extra so when dealing with men and their hair.

No one deserves an unideal outcome, and in a perfect world they wouldn’t happen. 
 

If Wong was negligent he should be held accountable.  I am just not convinced, really at all, that he was. Hopefully his clinic provides a response. Though I can understand why they may not as WoodenBlueberry has made it clear, in text posted by wallaby I believe, that he is attempting to gather evidence against H&W.  Although I see no real grounds for a viable lawsuit.

I would like to state that I would not go to H&W for a transplant, but that is for other, personal, reasons. 

I engaged a bit with this user. He comes across as entitled and seems to believe he was/is an ideal candidate. Although, and this comes from various comments he’s made with users across several of his posts, he began losing his hair in his 20’s, is a NW 5 by his early 30’s, and has a diffuse pattern. Based on this alone, I would say he has gotten excellent coverage from his, at least, 3 transplants, though I have seen others say he has had 4.

Is it perfect? No. But it actually looks pretty natural to me. Any average person would not think his is balding. At most someone might think he has some diffuse thinning up top.

Further, he has implied that everything that is wrong with his numerous transplants (all done by well regarded surgeons) is either negligence, malice, or apathy.

He seems to take no accountability whatsoever.

And I hope he pursues treatment or some other intervention, but I think this is a significant factor in his unhappiness. As well as the fly-by-night way he is portraying his case. He is doing it in a just so slight way as to make himself appear as a helpless, naive, victim. I don’t think he is naive at all.

I suspect he did not disclose any mental health issues to any of the doctors who worked on him. Based on my interactions with him I believe he likely deliberately concealed this component so they would be willing to perform surgery on him. I feel no surgeon would have taken him on as a patient or performed surgery on him if he had.

Not sure if any of this is relevant to the conversation, but I wanted to add my experience as well.

Also, @Legend007 your hair looks great, what’s the 15% of unhappiness for? 😉

Edited April 12, 2023 by Melvin- Moderator
Removed mental health issues

[Curious25]

I don’t think there was ever any claims that Konior ‘botched’ him - his FUT scar was textbook perfect, FUE extractions were above average, and he yielded likely to be upwards of 95% growth. The issues from what I remember were that he allegedly transplanted a density of 90cm2 into his frontal band, which left a vast contrast between his diffusely thinning scalp and frontal hairline, which bought into question the ethics of the planning and design stage, and then later this information was supposedly withheld from him in the medical reports. I then believe Wong had said to him during his surgery with H&W that the angles were incorrect. 
 

To add balance to this, I have personally had what I deem to be a good result years ago with one of this forums preferred surgeons, however have since consulted with other forum favourites whenever they have been in my city, two of which spent the entire time criticising the work lol . . Maybe they’re right with what they said, maybe they were just trying to fortify their superiority, who knows, but I’m happy with where I’m at, and I just see it as one of those things to be expected in an industry that is largely dominated by fragile egos, hence the at times unbearable forum politics that we see before us. 

 

In my opinion, this forum is still on the whole the best English speaking source of information online for all things related to hair loss and hair restoration, there are a huge number of very informed posters that contribute neutrally, and they’re not hard to pick out once you spend enough time reading the boards - so if you can get past the white noise without it affecting your judgement, and take it for what it is, you’ll hopefully get further towards your goals than what you would do by looking on Instagram. I also want to add that the podcasts and interviews are brilliant sources of information, and provide what would otherwise be unavailable opportunities for many to be able to ask questions to elite level doctors who are based halfway across the world. 

Anyway, the best way forward for the community, patient and clinic during cases like this, are to not lock and delete threads, however to invite the clinic to address them openly, add their perspective into the situation, and provide the required transparency for everyone to make up their own mind, which thankfully Melvin has orchestrated. 
 

Hopefully a positive resolution will come from this for all involved. 

 

[Melvin- Admin]

@2Bulls

I must call out that this is a new poster posting on this particular topic. This goes on unchecked on Reddit, I'm all for anonymity, but it seems that alt accounts are allowed to run wild there. That is not allowed here. 

@Curious25 He told Konior where he wanted grafts, and that's precisely where he received them. There were no issues until six months after the procedure. 90 grafts per cm2 is not physically possible. But that is all irrelevant to this case. 

I've also been alerted that Reddit is trying to orchestrate neg- bombing the clinic. This is the epitome of toxic internet troll behavior. This is unacceptable here. While we can have feelings, we should allow the clinic time to respond to these allegations.

I trust no one in our community is partaking in this behavior. That is not something that will be tolerated. Frankly, I find it appalling that it is allowed. I'm all for keeping surgeons and clinics accountable. But this is not that. This is malicious, spiteful, and defamatory. Should this case go legal, this orchestration of negative review bombing will have serious repercussions. 

[Rafael Manelli]

12 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

@Curious25 He told Konior where he wanted grafts, and that's precisely where he received them. There were no issues until six months after the procedure. But that is all irrelevant to this case. 

It seems true that he told Konior where he wanted the grafts, and that is where he received them - however the density was more than he bargained for and it gave him issues, issues which didn't present themselves until many months after the surgery, which makes sense because it takes many months for a transplant to reach full growth and density.

[asterix0]

It is a two way street to be a well informed patient and communicate to the doctor what you want as clearly as possible. If this is the guy who went to Dr. Konior earlier, he does seem to have issues of not quite understanding what the possibilities and limitations of hair transplantation are.

Nevertheless, I do agree that the clinic should be able to respond to the claims before any judgement is cast.

If what he said is true, it is a disappointing result indeed and I understand his frustration. 

 

[MisterBreakfast]

People gotta use some common sense and critical thinking here. 

On the one hand you have a guy from Reddit who has, let's just say a history of creating multiple accounts to bad mouth the top 3 clinics in the WORLD.  What is the likelihood that every single best doctor has somehow done him wrong, vs the tens of thousands of other patients with different experiences, and decades long strong results of these clinics?

The only thing I believe (with a large grain of salt) is what I see in the pictures, and 0% of the story.  They show a stretched scar, and moderate density.  Does this surprise me? Not really.  The guy is clearly a higher Norwood, so medium density is to be expected.  A stretched scar is far more likely after multiple FUT procedures, as any doctor will tell you.

Absolutely nothing sticks out to me. 

Now is it possible his story is somehow true? Sure.  But you need evidence to backup this kind of accusation.  His brandying about obsessing over some tech, with her given name, wild accusations, and little evidence certainly won't help his case.  So until he tidy's up his act and presents something that doesn't come across in such a way, then I will literally pay him no mind.

Edited April 11, 2023 by MisterBreakfast

[2Bulls]

I understand the callout @Melvin- Moderator and agree that adds to the wildness of Reddit. That is the reason I came here to get what I hoped was a more reasoned take on the matter.

To clarify any concerns, I am not in anyway involved in the Hair Transplant business. I am just a causal observer who is bewildered by what I am seeing.

Full transparency, I have been a reader of this forum going back nearly 20 years. I first heard of H&W through this site. As stated, I’ve never really been a fan of their work personally. I do not recall ever creating an account, mainly because I didn’t really have anything to add that other people here didn’t already know more about than me. **If** I created an account nearly 2 decades ago I have no idea my username, what email I would have used, nor would I even likely have access to that email anymore to recover a password, and would have at most asked a question or two.

I, like most people who are ultimately happy with their hair, moved on from the online space. Even on Reddit, this was a random situation for me to come upon as I don’t participate there, but will just read occasionally. 
 

My understanding is surgeons have no way to reliably screen for these conditions, so more awareness in the community may help improve people’s odds of happiness post-op.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Melvin- Moderator
Removed mental health issues

[Rafael Manelli]

13 hours ago, 2Bulls said:

I understand the callout @Melvin- Moderator and agree that adds to the wildness of Reddit. That is the reason I came here to get what I hoped was a more reasoned take on the matter.

To clarify any concerns, I am not in anyway involved in the Hair Transplant business. I am just a causal observer who is bewildered by what I am seeing.

Full transparency, I have been a reader of this forum going back nearly 20 years. I first heard of H&W through this site. As stated, I’ve never really been a fan of their work personally. I do not recall ever creating an account, mainly because I didn’t really have anything to add that other people here didn’t already know more about than me. **If** I created an account nearly 2 decades ago I have no idea my username, what email I would have used, nor would I even likely have access to that email anymore to recover a password, and would have at most asked a question or two.

I, like most people who are ultimately happy with their hair, moved on from the online space. Even on Reddit, this was a random situation for me to come upon as I don’t participate there, but will just read occasionally. 

My understanding is surgeons have no way to reliably screen for these conditions, so more awareness in the community may help improve people’s odds of happiness post-op.

People with those conditions can still benefit from surgery 

[NegativeNorwood]

I don't want to come across as an @sshole, but how is it possible that someone goes to not just one, but several reputable clinics and gets botched in all of them? Clearly there's something wrong with that guy, the anomalies are too much.

I understand that every surgeon has botched cases, but what are the odds of going to not one but 3 very reputable clinics (Devroye, Konior, H&W) and get a botch from every one of them, and for different reasons. It's just too much. There are two possibilities here: 

- He has the worst luck ever.

- He must be doing something wrong.

Not even going to argue about him editing the posts when questioned, creating multiple accounts or being banned here, which make him lose a lot of credibility.

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by NegativeNorwood

[Rafael Manelli]

7 minutes ago, NegativeNorwood said:

I don't want to come across as an @sshole, but how is it possible that someone goes to not just one, but several reputable clinics and gets botched in all of them? Clearly there's something wrong with that guy, the anomalies are too much.

I understand that every surgeon has botched cases, but what are the odds of going to not one but 3 very reputable clinics (Devroye, Konior, H&W) and get a botch from every one of them, and for different reasons. It's just too much. There are two possibilities here: 

- He has the worst luck ever.

- He must be doing something wrong.

Not even going to argue about him editing the posts when questioned, creating multiple accounts or being banned here, which make him lose a lot of credibility.

 

To be fair, the odds of any particular individual getting botched by 3 top docs is minuscule, but the odds that it happens to *someone* over the course of however many years, with all the thousands of hair transplants done every year, is basically guaranteed.

It's just probability. 

[Melvin- Admin]

I wanted to let the community know I searched the IP of @2Bulls and I didn’t find any previous usernames. I also didn’t find any previous accounts under his email. Now that doesn’t mean he wasn’t able to go around it, but I wanted to let you guys know I did my due diligence with not allowing alt accounts fly under the radar. That said, I will give him the benefit of the doubt. 

I have removed some of the speculation regarding the patients mental health. While I agree with the sentiment,  mental health should be screened for multiple things. Its not our place to speculate or call out someone’s mental health publicly. Thanks for sharing your input. I’ve left the rest of your statements up. 

[deepthoughts1]

Hi @Melvin- Moderator

Any updates or statements from H&W on this topic yet?

[Melvin- Admin]

3 hours ago, deepthoughts1 said:

Hi @Melvin- Moderator

Any updates or statements from H&W on this topic yet?

None that I can disclose. I will update the thread when I have more information. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Melvin- Moderator

[Gasthoerer]

We are not the "international-psychotherapy-network" and therefore we should concentrate on what we do best: give advice about "hair-restoration" and hold clinics responsible. This is a dirty business and patients have to stick together.

The TO's initial question was: 

1. Should I be concerned after reading this case? 

2. Is H&W the right clinic for my case? Well, he did not ask this question, but maybe he should have.

Regarding the first questions:

- Obviously, the issue in the presented case is large scar from strip and poor growth only (!) in the areas where a non-shave method was used and supposedly a tech did the incisions etc. 

In case the TO goes for shaven FUE and gets confirmation that the incisions are done by the surgeon, the other case is almost unrelated to his own. Anyway (independent of the discussed case), unshaven surgery should be avoided in my opinion and the slits should be done by the surgeon. 

Regarding the second question:

- Which clinic is the best can only be answered when more information about the case is presented. This is what the TO should do (present his case) and what we should have asked him to do from the very beginning. In general, H&W are not in my personal Top5 for smaller FUE cases and there are better options out there. Whatever "better" really means. 

Of course we also have to hold the clinic responsible, but the focus should not be at that case particularly. The questions to the clinic should be more general, but based on what is presented:

- Do they let techs to the incisions in certain cases e. g. unshaven cases or other cases?

- Would they generally perform unshaven (recipient) surgery and if yes, also for repair cases? Why?

- What is the reason for such a strip scar especially after a good one before? Bad luck or the boundary conditions like initial surgery? If the latter is true, would they inform the patient that there is a higher risk?

 

 

[2Bulls]

14 hours ago, Rafael Manelli said:

People with those conditions can still benefit from surgery 

Yes, I completely agree. No issue aught to automatically disqualify someone if they want a hair transplant unless the surgeon deems it so. My point is it is imperative for a prospective cosmetic surgery patient to disclose their entire health history, and be completely transparent with what their ideal outcome and expectations are to the surgeon beforehand.  These are elective procedures.

[2Bulls]

Totally understand @Melvin- Moderator and sorry if I was too specific.

And I’ll reiterate that I wouldn’t go to H&W for a transplant even if they paid me. Just personal preference on that one.

I will however ask if you have performed the same due diligence with the original poster, who appears to be a new account as well, and has only engaged to find out  H&W’s response? If this question is better suited for private message please feel free to edit this post.

Edited April 13, 2023 by 2Bulls

[2Bulls]

4 hours ago, Gasthoerer said:

We are not the "international-psychotherapy-network" and therefore we should concentrate on what we do best: give advice about "hair-restoration" and hold clinics responsible. This is a dirty business and patients have to stick together.

The TO's initial question was: 

1. Should I be concerned after reading this case? 

2. Is H&W the right clinic for my case? Well, he did not ask this question, but maybe he should have.

Regarding the first questions:

- Obviously, the issue in the presented case is large scar from strip and poor growth only (!) in the areas where a non-shave method was used and supposedly a tech did the incisions etc. 

In case the TO goes for shaven FUE and gets confirmation that the incisions are done by the surgeon, the other case is almost unrelated to his own. Anyway (independent of the discussed case), unshaven surgery should be avoided in my opinion and the slits should be done by the surgeon. 

Regarding the second question:

- Which clinic is the best can only be answered when more information about the case is presented. This is what the TO should do (present his case) and what we should have asked him to do from the very beginning. In general, H&W are not in my personal Top5 for smaller FUE cases and there are better options out there. Whatever "better" really means. 

Of course we also have to hold the clinic responsible, but the focus should not be at that case particularly. The questions to the clinic should be more general, but based on what is presented:

- Do they let techs to the incisions in certain cases e. g. unshaven cases or other cases?

- Would they generally perform unshaven (recipient) surgery and if yes, also for repair cases? Why?

- What is the reason for such a strip scar especially after a good one before? Bad luck or the boundary conditions like initial surgery? If the latter is true, would they inform the patient that there is a higher risk?

 

 

I agree with many of your points. I do believe a patients state of mind can greatly impact their level of happiness with an outcome.

Photos from users can often be inconsistent and so don’t always reveal all the details.

As to the craftsmanship, I think this is a decent outcome given this H&W patient’s previous hair transplant history and what seems to be progressive hair loss.

If negligence occurred that is unacceptable.

 

Question: do you think unshaven transplants can produce lower yield? I know if can effect angulation, blending, naturalness, etc.

[Melvin- Admin]

23 minutes ago, 2Bulls said:

Totally understand @Melvin- Moderator and sorry if I was too specific.

And I’ll reiterate that I wouldn’t go to H&W for a transplant even if they paid me. Just personal preference on that one.

I will however ask if you have performed the same due diligence with the original poster, who appears to be a new account as well, and has only engaged to find out  H&W’s response? If this question is better suited for private message please feel free to edit this post.

Great call out. I just searched his IP address as well, and his email. No matches. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t somehow get around it. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt as well. Though I’ll concede its very odd as a first post, and no additional posts or comments have been made. 

[2Bulls]

20 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Great call out. I just searched his IP address as well, and his email. No matches. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t somehow get around it. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt as well. Though I’ll concede its very odd as a first post, and no additional posts or comments have been made. 

This all sounds fair.

[MaximusEastwood]

1 hour ago, 2Bulls said:

Totally understand @Melvin- Moderator and sorry if I was too specific.

And I’ll reiterate that I wouldn’t go to H&W for a transplant even if they paid me. Just personal preference on that one.

I will however ask if you have performed the same due diligence with the original poster, who appears to be a new account as well, and has only engaged to find out  H&W’s response? If this question is better suited for private message please feel free to edit this post.

Why wouldn't you go to H&W? I already went to them, so it's too late for me...but just curious to hear your reasoning here