Pitting Surgeons Against Each Other

[Melvin- Admin]

5 minutes ago, NARMAK said:

@Melvin- Moderatorcan i just confirm how you feel we can fairly compare the techniques and work of clinics if we can't link to specific users?

Do we take the pictures of patients posted elsewhere and make them anonymous or simply edit them somewhat and make no mention at all to which users they are etc.?

Surely you would agree that an objective analysis of a doctors body of works is what allows us to judge over time their ability and helps build or erodes their reputation. 

With a forum such as this, as the Moderator i think the community needs a clear and concise answer how we can objectively compare clinic results if what you're saying is above that we are only supposed to use our own results. Some patients may only go to Hasson and Wong for example but not Konior. So then they cannot logically compare the two on a like for like basis. 

Taking two anonymous examples of sorts however from both clinics without mention dealing with similar hair transplants is surely a more logical way. 

So is the issue using and naming members without their express permission? Because there's an element of where once a person has posted their image as part of patient results here on the forum, it instantly becomes part of a public domain to be used for comparison imo. 

That's not to say as a community we should allow disparaging comments about the person but in some ways, looking at things objectively surely we come to a conclusion on what is and isn't a good result. 

If you want to compare people, why do you have to do it publicly? I don’t believe that’s fair, nor does it make it inviting for people to share. This is a sensitive subject and people don’t want to be picked apart in a disparaging manner, even if it’s for the sake of “research.” I wouldn’t appreciate that as a patient, and many feel the same way. Now, if someone is a patient and wants to share their point of view and pictures by all means, do so that is your right and very helpful. 
 

What bothers me is people want to do this with other peoples pictures and keep their own anonymity. I don’t think that’s fair at all. I’m the bad guy for saying this, okay, but how can you expect others to be cool with being picked apart, when you won’t do it yourself. 

[anotherbaldguy]

5 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

If you want to compare people, why do you have to do it publicly? I don’t believe that’s fair, nor does it make it inviting for people to share. This is a sensitive subject and people don’t want to be picked apart in a disparaging manner, even if it’s for the sake of “research.” I wouldn’t appreciate that as a patient, and many feel the same way. Now, if someone is a patient and wants to share their point of view and pictures by all means, do so that is your right and very helpful. 
 

What bothers me is people want to do this with other peoples pictures and keep their own anonymity. I don’t think that’s fair at all. I’m the bad guy for saying this, okay, but how can you expect others to be cool with being picked apart, when you won’t do it yourself. 

who can keep up with your arguments anymore melvin. And I thought you already made your last reply on the subject.

you could easily restore the thread without the photos. But as to why you haven't done so yet i have no idea why. this shouldnt have been a big deal 

the fact that you appreciated my analysis only reveals you are confused about it yourself

[NARMAK]

5 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

If you want to compare people, why do you have to do it publicly? I don’t believe that’s fair, nor does it make it inviting for people to share. This is a sensitive subject and people don’t want to be picked apart in a disparaging manner, even if it’s for the sake of “research.” I wouldn’t appreciate that as a patient, and many feel the same way. Now, if someone is a patient and wants to share their point of view and pictures by all means, do so that is your right and very helpful. 
 

What bothers me is people want to do this with other peoples pictures and keep their own anonymity. I don’t think that’s fair at all. I’m the bad guy for saying this, okay, but how can you expect others to be cool with being picked apart, when you won’t do it yourself. 

Personally i plan to post my pictures and journey and happy for the results to be picked apart. 

Again, if you saw at the end of my post, i specifically mentioned ensuring things are kept as objective as possible and avoiding any disparaging comments. 

In regards to why we have to do it publicly, the same way we would hope to keep somebody away from hair mills, we also want to steer them to the doctor and clinic perhaps best for the case of prospective patients. Surely as a person on a forum designed for patient advocacy you understand the need to have independent patient results to compare to when all clinics literally post cherry picked results on their own websites, Youtube or on forums etc. that will never likely ever show the results that never quite worked out as intended. 

So, once again, do we use patient examples with permission or find a way to make them as anonymous as possible by cropping the images? Making sure we do not mention usernames etc. but perhaps a year and month for reference to timelines.

[Curious25]

7 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

but how can you expect others to be cool with being picked apart, when you won’t do it yourself. 

No one was being picked apart on that thread though Melvin, it was just a collation of finished results taken from patient posted threads, from two of the surgeons the conversation was centred around. 
 

I’m at a loss at how you expect a prospective patient to decide on choosing a surgeon? 
 

You chose Dr Sethi for your most recent transplant, because you liked what you saw from his results with BHT - however it will be fair to say, you have seen BHT results from plenty of other recommended doctors on here, so how did you narrow it down to Dr Sethi without comparing his results to that of the other Dr’s? By viewing the patient results I presume - which was literally all that was done on that thread, albeit in a condensed format, saving the OP the time and hassle of going through searching the forum and looking for all the individual cases himself. 
 

If links to the original threads that the photos were taken from, rather than the photos themselves, were used . . would that have been acceptable? 

[Melvin- Admin]

12 minutes ago, NARMAK said:

Personally i plan to post my pictures and journey and happy for the results to be picked apart. 

Again, if you saw at the end of my post, i specifically mentioned ensuring things are kept as objective as possible and avoiding any disparaging comments. 

In regards to why we have to do it publicly, the same way we would hope to keep somebody away from hair mills, we also want to steer them to the doctor and clinic perhaps best for the case of prospective patients. Surely as a person on a forum designed for patient advocacy you understand the need to have independent patient results to compare to when all clinics literally post cherry picked results on their own websites, Youtube or on forums etc. that will never likely ever show the results that never quite worked out as intended. 

So, once again, do we use patient examples with permission or find a way to make them as anonymous as possible by cropping the images? Making sure we do not mention usernames etc. but perhaps a year and month for reference to timelines.

Asking permission is definitely the right thing to do. I still don’t understand why you need to compare them publicly to other people? Every patient is different so comparing results makes no sense. 

9 minutes ago, Curious25 said:

No one was being picked apart on that thread though Melvin, it was just a collation of finished results taken from patient posted threads, from two of the surgeons the conversation was centred around. 
 

I’m at a loss at how you expect a prospective patient to decide on choosing a surgeon? 
 

You chose Dr Sethi for your most recent transplant, because you liked what you saw from his results with BHT - however it will be fair to say, you have seen BHT results from plenty of other recommended doctors on here, so how did you narrow it down to Dr Sethi without comparing his results to that of the other Dr’s? By viewing the patient results I presume - which was literally all that was done on that thread, albeit in a condensed format, saving the OP the time and hassle of going through searching the forum and looking for all the individual cases himself. 
 

If links to the original threads that the photos were taken from, rather than the photos themselves, were used . . would that have been acceptable? 

If you post threads that’s fine. Because you’re letting the readers draw their own conclusions. Again, journeys should not be compared to one another, as results vary for a myriad of reasons. What would make the most sense, is compare yourself to each surgeon. Now that’s a fair comparison. If you say here are 10 recent threads from each surgeon that’s fine.

[digi23]

7 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Curious, 

You have been active a while, never once posted a picture of yourself or your results, if you’ve even had surgery. I’m sure you have reasons. So is it inconceivable that perhaps people don’t approve their pictures used for purposes other than the reason they posted them? I find it odd those who are so vociferously asking for this, are individuals who won’t share any pictures themselves. 

You seem to put weight on the active members to participate with their own story.

For example @J.A.C have been here since 2013, 10 000 posts, not a single photo of himself or his hairloss journey.

Claiming 5 hair transplants, 2 at Ziering in UK, 1 at Longevita, 1 at Dr Maral and 1 at unknown in Turkey according to his posts. 

[Mycroft]

So, just to clarify my understanding of the nuances here, the discussion is fine if links to the threads are used lieu of posting the photos directly? Or is it that we are permitted to share the threads but sharing them in addition to discussing their contents is a no-go? 

I read more than I post these days other than to give what I consider to be good starting advice to newbies who seem like they need guidance, but I do occasionally like to discuss and compare different surgical approaches and methodologies. Are we able to link to multiple clinic-posted results and discuss in this manner, or would this only apply to threads published by patients?

[Vann]

I didnt really want to post this... but if this was about copyright when using other peoples photos, the person could have been messaged to remove such photo or ask for permission.

If the person was verbally attacked, any unwarranted messages, or had any defamation; they could have been messaged and asked to remove said message.

DMCA - music copy right will shut down the video to the public but will still remain online until said person can remove, modify, mute any parts that contain parts of the song, music, or jingle within the video.

None of these will delete a message without giving fair warning or contrast without giving a chance. A lot of times when using online photos either you can license them from the photographer when using it for digital marketing (youre making revenue off of it) or if you use it for research purposes (you must credit them or cite them as the source).

Since the person or persons who want to remain anonymous they can be removed. But for the most part the comparisons could be made that each person is different, each person had results that were remarkably life changing, and each person had good improvement with the smaller amount of finite grafts that wouldve been higher at a different establishment. 

 

On the other hand, not sharing your own photos would give you a different objective approach with or without bias. Analyzing the data you presented lets other users come to different conclusions which each user elaborated their subjective and objective opinions whether they were an experienced person at that specific clinic or another. Sharing feedback should be the basis of this forum. I like the statement "no journey is the same case by case" (not exactly how it was said). But that is a reason why some who are new need to consider that and put that information with the rest of their research. This is a journey not a sprint so even the small comparisons would help someone to learn how to look people up.

For ex: The cost analysis that had a spreadsheet of different clinics, cost, techniques, location, etc. 

That came from someone who looked up different results from a previous forum because people were comparing results. The same came from this post. We build off each other and learn how to use that and move forward.

I am not sure if someone has directly messaged Melvin about their photo being used or whether someone felt offended about the post. But in my opinion I think there should be a filter view button until there can be an established reasoning for why its filtered from view. That way when you prove your point it doesnt have to be completely deleted and only modified to remove parts that "have cause" for moderation.

[Fue3361]

This is such  a weird thread.

 

If people post threads on their own work, one should assume they are alright with people discussing their hair transplants.  They put them out publicly.

 

It's one thing if someone took someone's photos, started making fun of said person.  It's entirely another, to take pictures publicly uploaded by someone, post them on the very same website said person uploaded them, and discuss the results (and in a positive manner, may I add).

 

I personally just assume someone important to Melvin DM'd him and asked for the thread to be taken down for whatever reason, and Melvin did so, and he can't say as to who or why.

But I find the reasoning being given to make zero sense.  It's like me arguing the following:  "I don't think Melvin asked Connor McGreggor for his permission to discuss his hair.  And Connor doesn't even post here, nor does he publicly state anywhere that he had a HT.  That thread should be deleted..."  Melvin, you've tons of times linked to other people's threads in discussions, or linked their names and told people to look at their results.  Obviously, this should be by default fine.  That's no different though to the said thread.
 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Fue3361

[Curious25]

The fact of the matter is simple; the only way to ascertain which clinic or surgeon will be most suited for your procedure is to conduct both an objective and subjective analysis upon service providers within the industry.

Subjective, as the word suggests, is an individuals personal perception, and is far more likely to potentially cause bias or risk patients’ feelings being hurt, should their photos be used as a talking point, for example. 

However the thread in question was purely centred around objective factors for consideration, discussing mainly the differences in approaches between Dr Konior and Hasson & Wong - not once mentioning anything about quality of results, because, as from my perception, there was an established understanding on the thread already that both clinics have a solid history of proving themselves capable. 

I really struggle to see how this forum could even exist, should it be prohibited to compare surgeons side by side. Even the title of this thread is a complete misconception of what posts in that thread were intending to achieve. 

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Curious25
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[anotherbaldguy]

1 hour ago, Vann said:

I didnt really want to post this... but if this was about copyright when using other peoples photos, the person could have been messaged to remove such photo or ask for permission.

If the person was verbally attacked, any unwarranted messages, or had any defamation; they could have been messaged and asked to remove said message.

I took 4 patient results posted on this site from each clinic and showed how each surgeon approached the cases differently. @George Clooney had done the same thing months earlier which Melvin took no issue with and (similar to my posts) thanked him for it.

I then used the results to show the differences between the clinics; as Konior does all the work himself this limits the amount of grafts he can do in a single session and results in vastly different surgical plan from that of Hasson who is part of a larger clinic (with more tech involvement) who is able to achieve more in a single session.

The irony of this all is i argued continually that these two clinics shouldn't be compared as they were better suited to different things; H&W were better at higher nw cases whereas Konior was ideal at smaller surgeries. Not sure how that is "pitting" surgeons against each other, but i cant make sense of anything Melvin says generally

1 hour ago, Vann said:

But in my opinion I think there should be a filter view button until there can be an established reasoning for why its filtered from view. That way when you prove your point it doesnt have to be completely deleted and only modified to remove parts that "have cause" for moderation.

It's highly unlikely that the thread is well and truly deleted - forums such as these have to keep a record in case of legal action 

1 hour ago, Fue3361 said:

I personally just assume someone important to Melvin DM'd him and asked for the thread to be taken down for whatever reason, and Melvin did so, and he can't say as to who or why.

👍

Edited April 30, 2022 by anotherbaldguy

[Melvin- Admin]

1 hour ago, anotherbaldguy said:

I took 4 patient results posted on this site from each clinic and showed how each surgeon approached the cases differently. @George Clooney had done the same thing months earlier which Melvin took no issue with and (similar to my posts) thanked him for it.

I then used the results to show the differences between the clinics; as Konior does all the work himself this limits the amount of grafts he can do in a single session and results in vastly different surgical plan from that of Hasson who is part of a larger clinic (with more tech involvement) who is able to achieve more in a single session.

The irony of this all is i argued continually that these two clinics shouldn't be compared as they were better suited to different things; H&W were better at higher nw cases whereas Konior was ideal at smaller surgeries. Not sure how that is "pitting" surgeons against each other, but i cant make sense of anything Melvin says generally

It's highly unlikely that the thread is well and truly deleted - forums such as these have to keep a record in case of legal action 

👍

Actually, I had a big issue with what @George Clooney did, in fact, his posts were reported. I told him not to do that, he got mad and stopped posting. I still don’t see why you won’t post your own pictures. If you’re a patient of the two, it would make the most sense to post your own results. That’s apples to apples.

When you compare different individuals, with different hair to color contrast, donor density, hair thickness, head size, etc. That’s apples to oranges. It makes absolutely ZERO sense to compare individuals. Results vary from person to person, even with the same surgeon. If you’re comparing yourself having had two surgeries with two different surgeons, that’s ultimately apples to apples. 

I’ll once again invite you to post your own thread, by all means, I’m sure it will be very educational. I’m getting the sense you’re @qui bono you guys can go back and look at the previous posts. 

[asterix0]

I am sympathetic to Melvin's efforts to keep the forum a positive place.

Due to the nature of how clinic's present their work, without full transparency, with high resolution pictures at multiple stages of the recovery process and post-op, we should be thankful that forum members here have posted such pictures for our free viewing.

I think the main issue is that, somewhat unfortunately, the threads with the most value are precisely the negative ones. Just like any other review on the internet. The positive ones are taken for granted, we sort of naturally question their authenticity because of how widespread fake reviews are online.

The negative ones give us an alternative, more realistic perspective of the full gamut of whatever service we are considering. They may help someone from making a big mistake, and we know that hair transplant surgery is no minor decision at all.

So, I propose there be maybe two sub forums, one labeled "success" and an other category. In the other category a worried patient can post their results to get some feedback what they should do, or if they know their transplant was unfortunately a failure, they can advise future patients about their own experience and why they don't recommend that particular surgeon that did their procedure.

I for myself browsed all threads, good and bad, before picking my surgeon, and I am post-op looking for signs in both the good and bad to see how my progress has come along after my transplant. Both have value, and neither should be shunned over the other.

 

[NARMAK]

I think there's already a section for patients to post their surgical results from different clinics and they can highlight in the title whether it's a start to finish result or a full review after 12+ months and whether they felt it was good or bad is probably put into the text. 

I think if we can have an agreement where we can highly crop a photo to edit out the individuals face to just focus on the hair itself and do not mention the patient name, simply a timeline of when it was done, this should be a fair compromise. Again, helping to make it so that no individuals are disparaged, it may be best to also try ask permission from the users where possible. 

This is one of the few forums on the Internet i think that has enough patients to objectively compare clinics for like for like situations or contrast their approach. We just need to figure out a way to make it fair to do so i think. 

[anotherbaldguy]

35 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Actually, I had a big issue with what @George Clooney did, in fact, his posts were reported. I told him not to do that, he got mad and stopped posting. I still don’t see why you won’t post your own pictures. If you’re a patient of the two, it would make the most sense to post your own results. That’s apples to apples.

When you compare different individuals, with different hair to color contrast, donor density, hair thickness, head size, etc. That’s apples to oranges. It makes absolutely ZERO sense to compare individuals. Results vary from person to person, even with the same surgeon. If you’re comparing yourself having had two surgeries with two different surgeons, that’s ultimately apples to apples. 

I’ll once again invite you to post your own thread, by all means, I’m sure it will be very educational. I’m getting the sense you’re @qui bono you guys can go back and look at the previous posts. 

Then you should have edited George Clooneys post on the thread to reflect this. And im still waiting for my results - ill post them if and when i feel comfortable for the public to assess them. It is incredibly strange that are you still trying and make this about me however

It seems that between @George Clooney  @qui bono and myself you have a history of this sort of thing. I empathise with George's last post;

On 2/25/2022 at 5:12 AM, George Clooney said:

This non response and attacking instead of responding to the substance of what I said is what I expected. Whether or not I show my own hair has nothing to do with my comments on another user's posts.

[Melvin- Admin]

5 hours ago, anotherbaldguy said:

Then you should have edited George Clooneys post on the thread to reflect this. And im still waiting for my results - ill post them if and when i feel comfortable for the public to assess them. It is incredibly strange that are you still trying and make this about me however

It seems that between @George Clooney  @qui bono and myself you have a history of this sort of thing. I empathise with George's last post;

Maybe because you are @qui bono checked the IP’s same time zone 🤔 

 

I removed the IP, but confirmed this is definitely the same person and banned him for duplicate accounts.

 

[anotherbaldguy]

Its interesting that you are willing to reveal private information about multiple forum members on a public thread.

Any chance you could tell us @George ClooneyIP as well?

Guess you never heard of a VPN 

 

[Melvin- Admin]

20 minutes ago, anotherbaldguy said:

Its interesting that you are willing to reveal private information about multiple forum members on a public thread.

Any chance you could tell us @George ClooneyIP as well?

Guess you never heard of a VPN 

 

Of course I have, that’s what you’re using now qui bono.

[Melvin- Admin]

Locking this thread, anotherbaldguy is a past member with an axe to grind. 

To be clear, speaking about surgeons, philosophies, techniques, results is fine. Comparing results from different individuals makes no sense since results vary from person to person for various reasons. Referencing threads is fine.

Again, taking pictures from threads and comparing them to others isn’t the appropriate thing to do, for one, results vary even with the same surgeon. I’m not saying we can’t discuss surgeons, I’m saying we can’t take other peoples pictures and start comparing them. This sets a bad precedent. I always say never compare yourself to others, that’s for a reason.