Pitting Surgeons Against Each Other

[Melvin- Admin]

Dear Community,

I have noticed that there have been threads come up where it will be  _surgeon vs. _surgeon. In the beginning, helpful advice is offered on how to make a choice. But then, posters begin to take pictures from various threads, and start comparing results, that's when feelings can get hurt. Now, while not tagging someone is better than tagging them. Everything you post publicly is seen by the PUBLIC. It's a delicate balance of creating an environment where people feel encouraged to share their results, good or bad, and creating an environment where people discuss results freely. I know that if you ask any world class surgeon about another world class surgeon, they will not hesitate to tell you to choose the other doctor if that's who you feel comfortable with. This back and forth dissecting of a surgeons reviews is unnecessary. Remember guys private messages exist for a reason. You can get feedback from past patients which is invaluable, and worth much more than an anonymous person on a message board. 

[Curious25]

Thanks for clarifying why this was taken down Melvin. 
 

I agree, it is a fine line between maintaining a healthy and positive environment where posters and surgeons are comfortable to share their results, whilst remaining fair and consistent with feedback. 
 

I may have missed further posts from the thread in question, so could be overlooking things that were said - but from what I recall, the individual who had one of their photos used as an example in a previous post, came on to contribute to the thread, and was actually pretty much in agreement with all that had been said, and even opened up the invitation for posters to contact him for further information, which was great to see. 
 

The points (the ones that I saw) made were absolutely brilliant from a lot of contributors on the thread, and it’s a real shame that it was taken down, rather than locked, because some of the analysis was better than any hair restoration content I’ve ever came across before.  

[NARMAK]

I think it's a difficult area to navigate but a surgeon sometimes is seen as "Only as good as their last patient" and if the most recent reviews by people on here etc. aren't as favourable as past reviews, that can and does influence things. 

It's also one of the reasons why i think some people have in the past been removed from the recommended list or not held in the same esteem they once were. 

Now you can call that hurt feelings, but imo i'd rather see the feelings of a doctor hurt over objective failings imo in the outcome they are responsible for via their own or their technicians hands than a patient with a less than acceptable or sub par result. 

We know there are factors that are out of the hands of both clinic and patient, so those fringe examples shouldn't be used but if we are imo to adhere to patient advocacy on the forums founding principle, a doctor needs to be able to be held somewhat to account and that's why we share our patient reviews and journey on here where possible or some brave souls do. 

The Good, Bad and Ugly for all to see so that we can hope prospective patients can make an informed decision. 

The entire premise has and ALWAYS will be Caveat Emptor. So if the onus is on the buyer to always be the party taking responsibility, i don't mind if a surgeon is regularly pitted against an other if things imo are measured objective and respectfully to help patients including perhaps use of recent patient reviews. 

[Curious25]

I agree with what you are saying - but I am failing to see the relevance of it to the thread in question, unless you are just going off on a different tangent to add to the debate of removal of such threads? 
 

The comparisons between the two clinics, H&W, and Dr Konior, never made any mention of one being g superior over the other - it was a technical analysis and breakdown of the differing strategies employed by each, and discussion into the pro’s and con’s of each . . which was done very fairly, and in a supportive manner.
 

If I were a prospective patient - that is exactly the type of information I would be wanting to read and learn from, and I thought it was conversely shaping up to be a thread that would be excellent promotion for each of the clinics, because of the volume of information about each that was on show. 
 

 

[Hairy Henderson]

I can agree with both of you.  The bottom line is that the doctors should stand by their work whether good or bad.  These forums are a good way to hold them to account.  

[NARMAK]

43 minutes ago, Curious25 said:

I agree with what you are saying - but I am failing to see the relevance of it to the thread in question, unless you are just going off on a different tangent to add to the debate of removal of such threads? 
 

The comparisons between the two clinics, H&W, and Dr Konior, never made any mention of one being g superior over the other - it was a technical analysis and breakdown of the differing strategies employed by each, and discussion into the pro’s and con’s of each . . which was done very fairly, and in a supportive manner.
 

If I were a prospective patient - that is exactly the type of information I would be wanting to read and learn from, and I thought it was conversely shaping up to be a thread that would be excellent promotion for each of the clinics, because of the volume of information about each that was on show. 
 

 

I was talking generally based on the "surgeon v surgeon" part mentioned in the OP tbh as to why we do need to allow such threads to exist with a fair approach. 

I am not 100% familiar with the other thread between Konior or H&W but what i can say is that they're probably two of the biggest elites on the field and most people could go to either and be entirely happy with results but comparing in that way you highlight is a little more Apples to Oranges in comparison maybe? 

Either way, i just wanted to throw my opinion into the ring regarding a comparison of surgeons a person may have narrowed down on as that's what i thought was being focused on in OP. 

[Curious25]

3 minutes ago, NARMAK said:

but comparing in that way you highlight is a little more Apples to Oranges in comparison maybe? 

Yes it very much is so . . Which is important because we’re not just a bunch of apples on here.

 

Patients are an eclectic mix also, so once skill level has been established with a clinic, matching the correct patient to the correct surgeon based on his style or surgical approach, is very important IMO. 

[anotherbaldguy]

So as I understand it the main reason the thread was taken down was because I took random samples of patients from what are commonly regarded as the "two best clinics in the world" and used them to discuss the different surgical approaches taken in each case? I would argue it would have been better to simply remove the photos in question and leave the content untouched given many forum members were openly thankful for my contribution.

1 hour ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

This back and forth dissecting of a surgeons reviews is unnecessary. 

First of all it is common practice for prospective patients to be left stuck choosing between two or more clinics and request help to discover which clinic is better suited to their needs. Head to heads are a necessary part of the research phase, and after many years of lurking on various forums I have never seen one taken down before, and as far as I can tell no other such threads have been removed.

Second of all I was in fact following in the footsteps of what a previous poster @George Clooneyhad done months earlier when they (as a computer programmer) analysed the work of each clinic and broke down their results, further adding photos to their analysis. This did not cause the thread to be taken down and the moderator of the forum commended him for it.

Third of all I purposefully did not tag any of the patients involved in case any feelings were hurt; I understand how vulnerable it is to put yourself out in public, so I truly apologise if i did in fact cause any offense. But on the other hand these are results from one of the best surgeons in the world, and such patients made a conscious decision to submit their results publicly and left them up for review. Indeed one of the patients @RecessionProofhappened to recognise himself, came online, even agreed with my initial analysis, and openly welcomed further discussion of his results both publicly and privately. He should be commended for his behaviour because this is how a community that supports one another behaves, otherwise it's a community that doesn't value transparency and doesn't care if their fellow patients make an informed decision about their bodies or not.

I guess i am left disappointed and confused, especially considering the forum moderator initially here liked my contribution and thanked me for it. If there really was an issue i would still argue it is better for the community at large to simply remove the photos and leave the content up. I would have hoped for better. 

[Mycroft]

That thread seemed like productive and civil discussion to me. While I don't pretend to have been following everything minute by minute, I didn't notice anyone becoming hostile or taking shots at other forum members. I think members discussing the pros and cons of each surgeon in a subjective manner is part of the reason that forums like this exist, and doctors or members who post their results on the forums are inviting a certain level of discussion regarding the result.

This does not mean that anyone needs to be hateful or aggressive in the context of this discussion, and if something along these lines ended up being posted that's not okay, but it seems to me like a situation like that would warrant a moderation of the offending comment itself rather than the removal of the entire discussion.

To me, this seems counterintuitive to the discourse and support we are all presumably looking to the forums for. If the OP requested removal of the thread for some reason, that would also be another story, but I didn't see anything that would have indicated that. Threads like that one have proven to be an invaluable educational resource for me over the years.

[RecessionProof]

No hard feelings on my end! I enjoyed the discussion and didn't mind having my own case discussed, though maybe others would feel differently.

At the end of the day I'd consider both Konior's and H&W's clinics to be probably the best in North America. As always, anyone is welcome to PM me about my experience.

[MachoVato]

I think it should be encouraged to discuss the differences in tools and techniques. A person considering multiple doctors may not know about those differences. For example, one doctor may use manual extraction, while another uses motorized. One uses stick and place for implantation, another uses implanter pens. One uses technicians, another is all hands-on. One implants in rows, another has a bias towards soft hairlines. One uses microscopes, another only loupes. Etc.

As a patient, my research is based on comparing these things. Patient results are great but there are many great results here. Personally, I used to have a preference for manual extraction but I don't any more. I still have a bias towards stick and place. So knowing these things are important. As are the hairline design approaches and biases. 

 

As a community, we owe it to each other to be respectful and civil. But comparing doctors and their results is, in my opinion, essential to decision making.

[RTC]

I agree that versus discussions can be very helpful.. this site, as far as I know, is aimed at helping customers and patients make informed decisions. Therefore why limit and moderate discussions to protect Doctors at the expense of patients?

[parsia]

3 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Dear Community,

I have noticed that there have been threads come up where it will be  _surgeon vs. _surgeon. In the beginning, helpful advice is offered on how to make a choice. But then, posters begin to take pictures from various threads, and start comparing results, that's when feelings can get hurt. Now, while not tagging someone is better than tagging them. Everything you post publicly is seen by the PUBLIC. It's a delicate balance of creating an environment where people feel encouraged to share their results, good or bad, and creating an environment where people discuss results freely. I know that if you ask any world class surgeon about another world class surgeon, they will not hesitate to tell you to choose the other doctor if that's who you feel comfortable with. This back and forth dissecting of a surgeons reviews is unnecessary. Remember guys private messages exist for a reason. You can get feedback from past patients which is invaluable, and worth much more than an anonymous person on a message board. 

Malvin , as a person who do research about transplants for years and still haven't done surgery yet , I think that thread was very helpful to me and the fact that it was getting lots of attention speaking by itself  , I post on that thread as well and I didn't mean to put any doctor under question  , Of course there is a difference between doctors quality work and I think everyone opinion should be welcome either he is a world class surgeon or not . 

I think VS thread can be one of the most helpful thread  , The reason is thats the only way you can get more information when you are undecided about one surgeon , Looking at patient photos and their results still not make me convince . 

I personally learned a lot about difference between doctors in VS thread we had on this forum , In that thread I do believe @anotherbaldguy went through  many good details that I was not even aware of , I searched a lot about both of those doctors and I never found any post helpful even close to that. 

I understand if posting photos of other patients (which has published by their permission to do comparison )was making the thread to be out of the line in your eye and I respect that but I think it should be address smoother by send a reminder or even remove the specific post instead of making the thread lock.

just as a side note , I watch your recent live surgery and asked you couple questions during that and I remember you were liking my questions ,  which shows you do have passion to educate patients  , Those good questions comes from information I got from this forum and even watching your videos on youtube and instagram , I hope you considering that to make this community more helpful . 

[Melvin- Admin]

Perhaps I was rash in removing the topic. Civil discourse is important. Maintaining a good environment is vital. I don’t want to go into the Reddit realm, which is popular, but terrible. Full of shills, where people make accusations and don’t have to substantiate anything they say under the guise of anonymity. 

I’m not perfect, I do take criticisms in a positive way, so long as there’s a way to improve myself, and the community. I’m open to finding a happy medium, where no one’s upset or feeling attacked. 

[Mountinvan]

I think Melvin is saying he is all in favor of a vibrant, open community where we can fairly evaluate strengths/philosophies/skills of various surgeons and clinics. It is unfair to the surgeon and to the community if there are anonymous posters with a biased agenda---hard to always detect. Thank you Melvin for keeping this as fair and open as you can, while preserving the integrity of the dialogue. We have to realize that not all results are the surgeon's best product; they can be constrained by patient budgets, patient goals, and patient's unique characteristics (good, bad, or neutral). In the end, we each have to research, research , research.

[Hair4Days]

I feel like head to head comparisons are important. It helps making a crucial decision  slightly easier.. and we need all the help we can get.  

[Melvin- Admin]

2 hours ago, Mountinvan said:

I think Melvin is saying he is all in favor of a vibrant, open community where we can fairly evaluate strengths/philosophies/skills of various surgeons and clinics. It is unfair to the surgeon and to the community if there are anonymous posters with a biased agenda---hard to always detect. Thank you Melvin for keeping this as fair and open as you can, while preserving the integrity of the dialogue. We have to realize that not all results are the surgeon's best product; they can be constrained by patient budgets, patient goals, and patient's unique characteristics (good, bad, or neutral). In the end, we each have to research, research , research.

Well said. 

[parsia]

7 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Perhaps I was rash in removing the topic. Civil discourse is important. Maintaining a good environment is vital. I don’t want to go into the Reddit realm, which is popular, but terrible. Full of shills, where people make accusations and don’t have to substantiate anything they say under the guise of anonymity. 

I’m not perfect, I do take criticisms in a positive way, so long as there’s a way to improve myself, and the community. I’m open to finding a happy medium, where no one’s upset or feeling attacked. 

I truly appreciate you being humble enough to accept that  and see my criticisms along others  positive , Because that was my true intention , I may didn't post enough on this forum but I have about thousand of posts on other hairloss talk forums and I've  always tried to make the forum a friendly environment and have dialogue in respectful manner .

 

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by parsia

[mrmane85]

I personally enjoyed that thread and gained a lot of good information. It is good to get a breakdown of different people's opinions comparing top surgeons. 

Someone of my favourite threads are ones comparing surgeons or asking opinions on which surgeon would be best out of X and X and X.

I think it should have never been closed and hope it is re-opened. 

[mrmane85]

On 4/28/2022 at 10:05 AM, Mountinvan said:

I think Melvin is saying he is all in favor of a vibrant, open community where we can fairly evaluate strengths/philosophies/skills of various surgeons and clinics. It is unfair to the surgeon and to the community if there are anonymous posters with a biased agenda---hard to always detect. Thank you Melvin for keeping this as fair and open as you can, while preserving the integrity of the dialogue. We have to realize that not all results are the surgeon's best product; they can be constrained by patient budgets, patient goals, and patient's unique characteristics (good, bad, or neutral). In the end, we each have to research, research , research.

Agree, not all results are the surgeons best product, but I feel the community has the right to discuss the best results along with the worst results, and at the same time compare one surgeon with another, as long as it's done in a non-malicious manner. 

[Curious25]

Given the clear appetite for threads such as this one from the community, the clarification from the individual whose photo was used as an example of not having any issues with it, and an admission from the moderator that in hindsight it was unnecessary to remove the thread - could we see it restored please and allow the discussion to continue? 

 

 

[Melvin- Admin]

8 hours ago, Curious25 said:

Given the clear appetite for threads such as this one from the community, the clarification from the individual whose photo was used as an example of not having any issues with it, and an admission from the moderator that in hindsight it was unnecessary to remove the thread - could we see it restored please and allow the discussion to continue? 

 

 

No, the thread is gone. Moving forward, I believe I laid it out clearly how one should research. Anonymous posters posting things online makes very little difference in terms of actual research. What are their motives? Have they had surgery?

The best thing to do is reach out to verifiable patients with reviews. Opinions are not facts, and some may draw different conclusions looking at pictures. 
 

There’s a private messaging feature for a reason. Discussing techniques, philosophies, is fine. The line in the sand is pulling reviews and comparing them publicly and dissecting them. 
 

onwards and upwards,

[anotherbaldguy]

57 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

No, the thread is gone. Moving forward, I believe I laid it out clearly how one should research. Anonymous posters posting things online makes very little difference in terms of actual research. What are their motives? Have they had surgery?

The best thing to do is reach out to verifiable patients with reviews. Opinions are not facts, and some may draw different conclusions looking at pictures. 
 

onwards and upwards,

I've had surgery with both H&W and Konior which is why I know exactly how each clinic is run and understand what each surgeon excels at - so I believe this also makes me uniquely qualified to comment on such a thread comparing the two clinics. 

You initially liked my post and thanked me for it so it makes absolutely no sense to turn around and question the motives of 'anonymous posters posting online' when literally everyone that participates on this forum is an anonymous poster sharing their opinion (and at least mine are based on personal experience). 

Hasson & Wong and Konior are considered some of the best surgeons in the world, so does this mean forum members can no longer discuss their work publicly or ask which is best suited to their needs?

[Melvin- Admin]

38 minutes ago, anotherbaldguy said:

I've had surgery with both H&W and Konior which is why I know exactly how each clinic is run and understand what each surgeon excels at - so I believe this also makes me uniquely qualified to comment on such a thread comparing the two clinics. 

You initially liked my post and thanked me for it so it makes absolutely no sense to turn around and question the motives of 'anonymous posters posting online' when literally everyone that participates on this forum is an anonymous poster sharing their opinion (and at least mine are based on personal experience). 

Hasson & Wong and Konior are considered some of the best surgeons in the world, so does this mean forum members can no longer discuss their work publicly or ask which is best suited to their needs?

Where’s your thread and pictures?

 
I never said surgeons cannot be discussed. Taking someone else’s pictures and comparing them to others isn’t allowed. If you’re a patient why didn’t you use YOURSELF as an example, instead of others? That’s baffling, I would like to hear your reasoning.

[Curious25]

37 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Taking someone else’s pictures and comparing them to others isn’t allowed.

Melvin, come on. This is literally done on a daily basis, including by yourself.

I’ve done it before on a hairline thread to point out the difference in quality surgeons and not so, using patients of BHR, Rahal, and De Freitas ALL from patient posted threads on here - none of them minded, nor did the board? 

I can imagine your job on here not being a straight forward one, and having to mediate between being fair to the community and the clinics not always being a simple feat - but this whole debacle screams that there has been some higher power at force here who has requested this to be taken down.