Pitting Surgeons Against Each Other

[Curious25]

It just doesn’t make sense. You were actively engaged in the thread, liking the posts one minute . . Then it’s been removed, despite not one of the members having any issues with the content ?  

[Melvin- Admin]

8 minutes ago, Curious25 said:

Melvin, come on. This is literally done on a daily basis, including by yourself.

I’ve done it before on a hairline thread to point out the difference in quality surgeons and not so, using patients of BHR, Rahal, and De Freitas ALL from patient posted threads on here - none of them minded, nor did the board? 

I can imagine your job on here not being a straight forward one, and having to mediate between being fair to the community and the clinics not always being a simple feat - but this whole debacle screams that there has been some higher power at force here who has requested this to be taken down. 
 

 

Curious, 

You have been active a while, never once posted a picture of yourself or your results, if you’ve even had surgery. I’m sure you have reasons. So is it inconceivable that perhaps people don’t approve their pictures used for purposes other than the reason they posted them? I find it odd those who are so vociferously asking for this, are individuals who won’t share any pictures themselves. 

[anotherbaldguy]

You never once made it clear that taking pictures of other patients and comparing them is not allowed; another poster did it months earlier and you allowed the thread to continue. And when I did it you initially saw no issue with it and even thanked for me contributing ... only to suddenly delete the thread and have your entire position change. Why? 

So what exactly is this issue? Is comparing photos not allowed? Are the motives and identities of members who want to contribute positively to the forum now an issue? How else are we to assess the work of clinics if not by comparing photos? 

 

And is the new standard now that every forum member that posts an opinion now needs to create a public thread first? Are you serious???? I just sent you my clinic photos privately to prove who I am, but I dont like the idea of being forced to do anything publicly.

Admittedly I was actually thinking about making a thread and even mentioned it here, but genuinely i dont respect how any of this has been handled.

[Melvin- Admin]

1 minute ago, anotherbaldguy said:

You never once made it clear that taking pictures of other patients and comparing them is not allowed; another poster did it months earlier and you allowed the thread to continue. And when I did it you initially saw no issue with it and even thanked for me contributing ... only to suddenly delete the thread and have your entire position change. Why? 

So what exactly is this issue? Is comparing photos not allowed? Are the motives and identities of members who want to contribute positively to the forum now an issue? How else are we to assess the work of clinics if not by comparing photos? 

 

And is the new standard now that every forum member that posts an opinion now needs to create a public thread first? Are you serious???? I just sent you my clinic photos privately to prove who I am, but I dont like the idea of being forced to do anything publicly.

Admittedly I was actually thinking about making a thread and even mentioned it here, but genuinely i dont respect how any of this has been handled.

You never answered my question. Why would you take others pictures, and not your own? That makes absolutely no sense. 

 

[anotherbaldguy]

3 minutes ago, anotherbaldguy said:

I dont like the idea of being forced to do anything publicly.

Admittedly I was actually thinking about making a thread and even mentioned it here, but genuinely i dont respect how any of this has been handled.

 

[Melvin- Admin]

4 minutes ago, anotherbaldguy said:

 

No one is forcing you to do anything, but you don’t even want to share your own pictures. It’s baffling that you think others should allow you to take their pictures and pick them apart. That is mind boggling to me. 

[anotherbaldguy]

1. i was thinking about making a thread and am still considering doing so because others might learn from my journey. 

2. i used multiple examples of public photos to discuss the general surgical approaches of each clinic. Just using one example (my own) would not make any sense because a) it doesnt reveal an overall pattern, and b) I have undergone multiple surgeries and my case is unique. 

3. Why is this now focused on me deciding whether or not to share my own photos publicly - is this not my identity and my choice? I have shared them privately with you already. I think you are trying to distract from the inconsistent rules presented on the forum and your bad handling of this. 

 

[Melvin- Admin]

Again, I have absolutely no problem with anyone sharing their own results and discussing them. That’s actually better, it’s verifiable, and stands for much more. Just want to add that. 

[Melvin- Admin]

1 minute ago, anotherbaldguy said:

1. i was thinking about making a thread and am still considering doing so because others might learn from my journey. 

2. i used multiple examples of public photos to discuss the general surgical approaches of each clinic. Just using one example (my own) would not make any sense because a) it doesnt reveal an overall pattern, and b) I have undergone multiple surgeries and my case is unique. 

3. Why is this now focused on me deciding whether or not to share my own photos publicly - is this not my identity and my choice? I have shared them privately with you already. I think you are trying to distract from the inconsistent rules presented on the forum and your bad handling of this. 

 

Is it not the person’s choice how they want their pictures posted on the forum? Absolutely it’s your choice, it is everyone’s choice. Just because it’s posted publicly, does not give you or anyone the right to do whatever you want with them. I take these concerns VERY seriously, as I would you if someone did that. 

[Curious25]

28 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Curious, 

You have been active a while, never once posted a picture of yourself or your results, if you’ve even had surgery. I’m sure you have reasons. So is it inconceivable that perhaps people don’t approve their pictures used for purposes other than the reason they posted them? I find it odd those who are so vociferously asking for this, are individuals who won’t share any pictures themselves. 

Melvin, 

 

I had surgery with Dr Feriduni in 2016 and actually had a thread on a different site because I wasn’t aware of, or using this forum at the time. I can send you my pictures privately, link you to the thread (if external links to other forums are permitted) or you can speak to @L0ke to confirm who I am. 
 

Regardless, I wasn’t aware of it being a stipulation to sharing your own photos before you can voice concern over unwarranted censorship on what is meant to be the internets only free voiced hair loss forum? 
 

Anyway, I really don’t want to get into tit for tat with you because I actually respect what you do, and don’t want to waste your time with having to muster up some other excuse and respond to whatever I say - but the bottom line is , a lot of what you have said to justify the removal of the thread is not, and has never been the case from what I have seen on this forum.
 

You constantly (in a positive manner) put photos or link threads from other patients’ when their dr’s names come into question from a user, to provide them with examples of their work. Which makes sense, because after all, that’s what this forum is about ? 
 

So to take disciplinary action to that particular thread and remove it, where there was absolutely no bad mouthing or tribalism going on, just a very detailed and in depth analysis from actively engaged users . . I mean you even liked the actual post in question with the comparison photos on - it begs the question, what has really gone on here? 
 

I pm’d you yesterday by the way and you haven’t replied. 

[Melvin- Admin]

12 minutes ago, anotherbaldguy said:

2. i used multiple examples of public photos to discuss the general surgical approaches of each clinic. Just using one example (my own) would not make any sense because a) it doesnt reveal an overall pattern, and b) I have undergone multiple surgeries and my case is unique. 

 

 

#1 every case is unique, there is no one-size-fits-all. Furthermore, everyone’s goals are different. Using your personal  example and your own goals makes the MOST sense. I have found the reason many seek my advice is not because I manage this forum have seen hundreds of cases. It is because I have ACTUAL experience as a patient, and I can refer to my own surgeries and provide input from my perspective as a patient. That’s what matters the most. 

Pseudo-patients on an anonymous forum provide little to nothing. The verifiable patients with journeys are the ones who provide the most information. 

[anotherbaldguy]

then you should have simply deleted the photos and left the thread intact

talking about anonymous posters motives, suggesting that dissecting surgeon reviews is not necessary, that people draw different conclusions from photos (when that is the ONLY way of judging the work here), and then suggesting I needed to make a thread here myself is nonsense. 

if it's possible you should simply restore the thread without the photos so that others might make up their own minds. But it is mind boggling trying to understand how something simple has now evolved

1 minute ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

#1 every case is unique, there is no one-size-fits-all. Furthermore, everyone’s goals are different.  

And if you restored the thread you will see that that is exactly what i argued

2 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Pseudo-patients on an anonymous forum provide little to nothing. 

This is highly insulting, and downright bizarre given you agreed with my posts and thanked me for it

[Melvin- Admin]

14 minutes ago, anotherbaldguy said:

then you should have simply deleted the photos and left the thread intact

talking about anonymous posters motives, suggesting that dissecting surgeon reviews is not necessary, that people draw different conclusions from photos (when that is the ONLY way of judging the work here), and then suggesting I needed to make a thread here myself is nonsense. 

if it's possible you should simply restore the thread without the photos so that others might make up their own minds. But it is mind boggling trying to understand how something simple has now evolved

And if you restored the thread you will see that that is exactly what i argued

This is highly insulting, and downright bizarre given you agreed with my posts and thanked me for it

I feel like I’m going in circles. What makes no sense, is you pulling other peoples pictures, instead of your own. Then turning around and getting mad that people don’t want you to use their images. It’s your right, just as it is anybody to dictate where, how, and when your images are used. Period. 

[anotherbaldguy]

3 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

I feel like I’m going in circles. What makes no sense, is you pulling other peoples pictures, instead of your own. Then turning around and getting mad that people don’t want you to use their images. It’s your right, just as it is anybody to dictate where, how, and when your images are used. Period. 

I NEVER said I was mad at people that didnt want to use their images. What are you talking about? That's their absolute right. 

Im annoyed and upset at YOUR failures as a moderator in how you have handled this. Your behaviour has been entirely arbitrary, inconsistent and makes no sense whatsoever. 

 @RecessionProof had no issue with me using his photos, so why not restore the thread and simply remove the photos of those who do not wish to participate? Simple. You admitted it was rash decision to delete it, so why not restore it?

[Melvin- Admin]

2 minutes ago, anotherbaldguy said:

I NEVER said I was mad at people that didnt want to use their images. What are you talking about? That's their absolute right. 

Im annoyed and upset at YOUR failures as a moderator in how you have handled this. Your behaviour has been entirely arbitrary, inconsistent and makes no sense whatsoever. 

 @RecessionProof had no issue with me using his photos, so why not restore the thread and simply remove the photos of those who do not wish to participate? Simple. You admitted it was rash decision to delete it, so why not restore it?

If you want to create thread and compare your own results by all means go ahead. No one is stopping you. This will be my last reply on the subject. 

[MachoVato]

Emotions are hot! 😂

With respect Melvin, 2 weeks ago you asked Konior how would he do his research... and his answer was to "dig dirt up on me". And he even said to go to other surgeons. In the voice of arguably the best hair transplant surgeon in the world... look at my worse work, ask questions, and compare to others. I've never seen a rule that we can only compare our own photos, besides how would we do that if we are researching our first transplant? You have several threads on celebrities/footballers/etc. who have had transplants. Research without comparing patient results is just reading a brochure.

I respect what you do, totally. And it isn't easy to work with crazy hair people. But this if that "no comparing" rule was in effect, this would hurt the community.

 

 

[HappyMan2021]

In my opinion, any doctor who essentially is charging anywhere from a 10k-25k premium cost, even when compared to other elite docs, absolutely demands rigorous scrutiny. More scrutiny than even hair mills. 

This is in no way throwing shade at Dr. Konior even. Just that when paying such a jaw-dropping price, consumers are justified in getting as much information as possible. 

I saw the original thread and saw no issue with it. @anotherbaldguy wasn't even insulting Konior in any way. It was incredibly objective and filled with a ton of great inside info. 

Melvin himself has said earlier in this thread perhaps he rushed too soon to close @anotherbaldguy thread. 

I'm seeing a lot of long-time forum regulars and valued contributors @Curious25 @MachoVato @NARMAK @Aslitarcan sucks all agree the thread should have stayed. 

I personally don't want to be dragged into any argument myself. I don't have any stake in H&W or Konior. 

I am moreso looking at this from a consumer and patient advocate POV. These doctors are providing a service, and I don't see why they can't be compared apples to oranges like any other service.

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by HappyMan2021

[Curious25]

We need Elon to buy HRN - he’s into hair transplants, so who knows 

[Melvin- Admin]

1 hour ago, MachoVato said:

Emotions are hot! 😂

With respect Melvin, 2 weeks ago you asked Konior how would he do his research... and his answer was to "dig dirt up on me". And he even said to go to other surgeons. In the voice of arguably the best hair transplant surgeon in the world... look at my worse work, ask questions, and compare to others. I've never seen a rule that we can only compare our own photos, besides how would we do that if we are researching our first transplant? You have several threads on celebrities/footballers/etc. who have had transplants. Research without comparing patient results is just reading a brochure.

I respect what you do, totally. And it isn't easy to work with crazy hair people. But this if that "no comparing" rule was in effect, this would hurt the community.

 

 

I agree with you. If you’re a patient, BY ALL MEANS post your pictures and any critiques you have, that is absolutely 100% fair and vital. All I’m saying is don’t use other peoples pictures, when they may not consent. That’s all, if I gotta be the bad guy for that, so be it. If someone’s comparing HLC and Bisanga, the most common sense thing to do is compare your own experience. 

To your point about comparisons, it’s difficult to compare because there are several factors that will affect the overall appearance. Like hair thickness, head size, donor density, etc. I do not believe it’s ever a good idea to compare, as we know no two cases are the same, even with the same surgeons. 

[Melvin- Admin]

11 minutes ago, Curious25 said:

We need Elon to buy HRN - he’s into hair transplants, so who knows 

Maybe I’ll ask him when you share your own pictures 😉

[anotherbaldguy]

15 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

I agree with you. If you’re a patient, BY ALL MEANS post your pictures and any critiques you have, that is absolutely 100% fair and vital. All I’m saying is don’t use other peoples pictures, when they may not consent. That’s all, if I gotta be the bad guy for that, so be it. 

If you had argued that from the start i would have respected you. But that is not what happened.

15 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

I agree with you. If you’re a patient, BY ALL MEANS post your pictures and any critiques you have, that is absolutely 100% fair and vital. All I’m saying is don’t use other peoples pictures, when they may not consent. That’s all, if I gotta be the bad guy for that, so be it. If someone’s comparing HLC and Bisanga, the most common sense thing to do is compare your own experience. 

To your point about comparisons, it’s difficult to compare because there are several factors that will affect the overall appearance. Like hair thickness, head size, donor density, etc. I do not believe it’s ever a good idea to compare, as we know no two cases are the same, even with the same surgeons. 

As you saw in the thread that you deleted I took into these things into account and showed how both clinics approached a patient with fine hair completely differently. This was the post that you liked and thanked me publicly for writing.

I do have copies of what i wrote so if anyone would like me to start the thread again perhaps Melvin will let me. I have no idea how these things work anymore.

5 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

There’s a private messaging feature for a reason. Discussing techniques, philosophies, is fine. The line in the sand is pulling reviews and comparing them publicly and dissecting them. 

Otherwise apparently it's ok to message me privately.

Im happy to help anyone that is interested

Edited April 29, 2022 by anotherbaldguy
grammar etc

[Melvin- Admin]

5 minutes ago, anotherbaldguy said:

If you had argued that from the start i would have respected you. But that is not what happened.

As you saw in the thread that you deleted I took into these things into account and showed how both clinics approached a patient with fine hair completely differently. This was the post that you liked and thanked me publicly for writing.

I do have copies of what i wrote so if anyone would like me to start the thread again perhaps Melvin will let me. I have no idea how these things work anymore.

Otherwise apparently it's ok to message me privately.

Im happy to help anyone that is interested

You can start the thread if you wanna compare your results and then break down the differences and techniques. Yes that’s absolutely fine. As mentioned, other people who share may not consent, so use your own pictures. That’s the best thing to do anyway. 

[NARMAK]

@Melvin- Moderatorcan i just confirm how you feel we can fairly compare the techniques and work of clinics if we can't link to specific users?

Do we take the pictures of patients posted elsewhere and make them anonymous or simply edit them somewhat and make no mention at all to which users they are etc.?

Surely you would agree that an objective analysis of a doctors body of works is what allows us to judge over time their ability and helps build or erodes their reputation. 

With a forum such as this, as the Moderator i think the community needs a clear and concise answer how we can objectively compare clinic results if what you're saying is above that we are only supposed to use our own results. Some patients may only go to Hasson and Wong for example but not Konior. So then they cannot logically compare the two on a like for like basis. 

Taking two anonymous examples of sorts however from both clinics without mention dealing with similar hair transplants is surely a more logical way. 

So is the issue using and naming members without their express permission? Because there's an element of where once a person has posted their image as part of patient results here on the forum, it instantly becomes part of a public domain to be used for comparison imo. 

That's not to say as a community we should allow disparaging comments about the person but in some ways, looking at things objectively surely we come to a conclusion on what is and isn't a good result. 

[Curious25]

17 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

To your point about comparisons, it’s difficult to compare because there are several factors that will affect the overall appearance. Like hair thickness, head size, donor density, etc. I do not believe it’s ever a good idea to compare, as we know no two cases are the same, even with the same surgeons. 

That’s a fair and valid point. At the risk of pandering the contributors on the original thread, I believe the level of the conversations being had would suggest that the posters were well aware of these factors obviously being fundamental to overall results, however if it wasn’t specifically stated - I agree, for full transparency it should have been mentioned (I don’t know if it was or wasn’t). This could have been as easy as staying it in in a simple post, rather than deleting the whole thread though.
 

You didn’t ask for my pics on your PM, so I assumed you weren’t interested - more than happy to show you them though, as long as you play by your own rules and don’t go posting me around the Internet 😉 

[anotherbaldguy]

Im still waiting for my results to come in from one of the clinics, and after 4 surgeries have found paying too much attention only builds expectations and makes the process worse.

The thread that was deleted was a meta-analysis and breakdown of surgical approaches of each clinic generally, with particular attention to each surgeon's strengths (not just between Konior and H&W but between H&W themselves). No single patient thread would ever capture that, and given the feedback and support i got publicly and privately, you have done a disservice by removing it. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by anotherbaldguy