Have HT Surgeons Begun to Charge Too Much?

[Berba11]

9 hours ago, JoeMan said:

My surgeon (Dr. Ferreira) was 3€ a graft. Works 4 days a week Tue-Fri. About 1500 grafts a day. I'd bet most take quite a few vacations as well. Do they make good money, absolutely! But for 1.5€, find me a Dr that is exceptional. They'd be booked for 2-3 years. You get what you pay for in most things in life and a HT are no exception. Sure, some Dr's are a better value of course. 

Very few world class Dr's exist and they are all booked a year plus. Most are raising prices right now because they can. Supply/Demand. 

I think your numbers are way off as well since most quality Dr's don't see so many per day. 

That's approximately a €1.2m a year turnover (in reality probably less when factoring in holidays, smaller surgeries, unfilled cancellations etc...), which rather makes the point quite well that the OP's numbers are fairly extravagant!

[NARMAK]

55 minutes ago, Berba11 said:

That's approximately a €1.2m a year turnover (in reality probably less when factoring in holidays, smaller surgeries, unfilled cancellations etc...), which rather makes the point quite well that the OP's numbers are fairly extravagant!

Even if they were exaggerated, hot damn. A 7 figure turnover with potentially €250k+ Euro profit per year assuming really high costs. I don't know how that isn't living a good life though. 

[Melvin- Admin]

I’m fairly certain this thread was created a while ago with the same points, and same responses. 

Fallacy number one: Hair transplants should be treated like a non-profit charity. 

Hair transplants are not medically necessary, they are a cosmetic procedure we CHOOSE to get. Surgeons are a business. What is the point of every business? To gain revenue. There’s nothing wrong with making money, there’s a right and a wrong way to do it. But absolutely nothing wrong with it. 

How on earth can you say a BUSINESS can be charging too much, especially in a free market. That’s like saying “are Ferraris charging too much” in a free market, the market decides the cost. 

The clinic charges what the market is willing to pay, now you may not be in a particular surgeon’s market, that’s just the truth.  That’s why medical tourism exists.

For example, Dr. Konior, highly regarded as one of the best in the world, his patients are usually high-profile, CEO’s, Executives, etc. His prices are aligned with his clientele.

Free industries have different demographics and markets and niche’s. There’s two ways to make money, lower cost and raise production. Sell more of a cheaper product. The other way is to raise prices and lower production. Sell less of an expensive higher quality product. I always advise surgeons to do the latter. 

I have personally advised some surgeons to up their prices, as the cheaper they go, the worse the quality. There’s a market for everyone someone who just wants a cheap hair transplant is not in their market. This forum is not their market. We have a variety of doctors who charge low, medium, and high. But our focus isn’t the money, its the results. That’s all that matters in the end! 

[Mike10]

Yes. Most HTs Doctors are just after the money anyway. There are few ethical Drs out there

[Melvin- Admin]

8 minutes ago, Mike10 said:

Yes. Most HTs Doctors are just after the money anyway. There are few ethical Drs out there

 Lower ethics usually coincides with lower cost, because the only way they make money is to maximize the number of patients.

But I disagree that only few are ethical. The more expensive doctors are usually the ones turning away bad candidates. Plenty of cases here of members saying “_turned me down.”  

[Fue3361]

Markets set prices.  When you're a surgeon and have a 2 year waiting list, are you going to lower prices?  Of course not, you'll raise them until you hit an equilibrium.  

[deeznuts]

16 hours ago, NARMAK said:

Even if they were exaggerated, hot damn. A 7 figure turnover with potentially €250k+ Euro profit per year assuming really high costs. I don't know how that isn't living a good life though. 

250k euro is utter garbage for being a world class doctor honestly. Though he is in Portugal where CoL and average salary is lower but I still don't consider 250k euro all that impressive if you are at the top of your profession.

Not that 250k isn't a lot of money for the average person, but being one of the best hair transplant doctors in the world hardly qualifies you as an average person

[MachoVato]

This reminds me of that thread from that guy in India saying that Eugenix should lower their prices so that average Indians can afford them. Absolutely ridiculous.

If you want a cheaper option, there are plenty. Dr. Cinik's clinic offers a FUE transplant, maximum grafts, hotel and transport included, for €2090. If you're a gambling man, Asli Tarcan has a package for €1800... good luck with that!

 

[Fue3361]

6 hours ago, deeznuts said:

250k euro is utter garbage for being a world class doctor honestly. Though he is in Portugal where CoL and average salary is lower but I still don't consider 250k euro all that impressive if you are at the top of your profession.

Not that 250k isn't a lot of money for the average person, but being one of the best hair transplant doctors in the world hardly qualifies you as an average person

There's no way that 250k figure is even remotely close to real.  I'd assume the best in the world are making over 1m in profit a year at the last.

[NARMAK]

6 hours ago, deeznuts said:

250k euro is utter garbage for being a world class doctor honestly. Though he is in Portugal where CoL and average salary is lower but I still don't consider 250k euro all that impressive if you are at the top of your profession.

Not that 250k isn't a lot of money for the average person, but being one of the best hair transplant doctors in the world hardly qualifies you as an average person

It's amazing when somebody can call €250k income per year "garbage" lol. 

I was just trying to give a conservative ballpark figure and the truth is, the best Hair Transplant doctors are probably easily multi-millionaires and it's not like the lifetime income takes a nosedive after like 10-15 years. It's near enough a full length career you can have and earning tens of millions if you are amongst the best and consistently in demand. 

[Melvin- Admin]

55 minutes ago, MachoVato said:

This reminds me of that thread from that guy in India saying that Eugenix should lower their prices so that average Indians can afford them. Absolutely ridiculous.

If you want a cheaper option, there are plenty. Dr. Cinik's clinic offers a FUE transplant, maximum grafts, hotel and transport included, for €2090. If you're a gambling man, Asli Tarcan has a package for €1800... good luck with that!

 

That’s exactly the thread I was talking about, I bet it’s the same guy with a VPN. 

[Melvin- Admin]

36 minutes ago, NARMAK said:

It's amazing when somebody can call €250k income per year "garbage" lol. 

I was just trying to give a conservative ballpark figure and the truth is, the best Hair Transplant doctors are probably easily multi-millionaires and it's not like the lifetime income takes a nosedive after like 10-15 years. It's near enough a full length career you can have and earning tens of millions if you are amongst the best and consistently in demand. 

To be fair, 250k is peanuts. For me, an average guy, I would be ecstatic. But in the grand scheme, it’s not much. Would you say this about a famous actor or athlete? No, you’d say that’s a small amount. Globally known surgeons should be no different.

World famous surgeons are at the top of the game globally. They should be making more. The more they make the more their staff makes. Why shouldn’t their world class technicians earn 100k a year. Much of what is earned is put back into the business to make it better. 

Some of these doctors sacrifice a lot. They don’t work normal hours, there’s no off time. Like I said, there’s a right and wrong way to make money. The wrong way - hire technicians, do none of the work and become a millionaire like these mills in Turkey.  Destroy many lives and heads in the process.

The right way is very demanding, work long hours physically exhaust yourself. Be meticulous with every patient, that deserves all the compensation, and I want these surgeons to have money. They’re changing lives. 

[Fue3361]

26 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

To be fair, 250k is peanuts. For me, an average guy, I would be ecstatic. But in the grand scheme, it’s not much. Would you say this about a famous actor or athlete? No, you’d say that’s a small amount. Globally known surgeons should be no different.

World famous surgeons are at the top of the game globally. They should be making more. The more they make the more their staff makes. Why shouldn’t their world class technicians earn 100k a year. Much of what is earned is put back into the business to make it better. 

Some of these doctors sacrifice a lot. They don’t work normal hours, there’s no off time. Like I said, there’s a right and wrong way to make money. The wrong way - hire technicians, do none of the work and become a millionaire like these mills in Turkey.  Destroy many lives and heads in the process.

The right way is very demanding, work long hours physically exhaust yourself. Be meticulous with every patient, that deserves all the compensation, and I want these surgeons to have money. They’re changing lives. 

Absolutely agreed.

Can't talk for other surgeons, but my Dr. wakes up every morning before 2AM, gets to the clinic before 4AM, is seeing patients for planning at 5AM, starts surgeries before 6AM.  He gets home after sunset.  It's not an easy life.

[RTC]

1 hour ago, MachoVato said:

This reminds me of that thread from that guy in India saying that Eugenix should lower their prices so that average Indians can afford them. Absolutely ridiculous.

If you want a cheaper option, there are plenty. Dr. Cinik's clinic offers a FUE transplant, maximum grafts, hotel and transport included, for €2090. If you're a gambling man, Asli Tarcan has a package for €1800... good luck with that!

 

Asli Tarcan 😭

[NARMAK]

21 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

To be fair, 250k is peanuts. For me, an average guy, I would be ecstatic. But in the grand scheme, it’s not much. Would you say this about a famous actor or athlete? No, you’d say that’s a small amount. Globally known surgeons should be no different.

World famous surgeons are at the top of the game globally. They should be making more. The more they make the more their staff makes. Why shouldn’t their world class technicians earn 100k a year. Much of what is earned is put back into the business to make it better. 

Some of these doctors sacrifice a lot. They don’t work normal hours, there’s no off time. Like I said, there’s a right and wrong way to make money. The wrong way - hire technicians, do none of the work and become a millionaire like these mills in Turkey.  Destroy many lives and heads in the process.

The right way is very demanding, work long hours physically exhaust yourself. Be meticulous with every patient, that deserves all the compensation, and I want these surgeons to have money. They’re changing lives. 

I've stated before that i don't begrudge people making money if they're in demand etc. but but i do not think technicians are potentially rewarded as high as you stated and the way they can build their resume to try justify such an income would be very difficult because i do not know how easily they could showcase their skill or portfolios if they needed to jump from one place to another. Usually only the clinic knows on a day to day basis how good their technicians are and also, i don't think you are taking into account how international clinics are probably still paying techs reduced wages alongside overhead costs, so their profit margins are very healthy. 

We've already said its a business at the end of the day. Every clinic is entitled to jack up their prices to the moon until their demand slips and moreso than not, we are seeing this happen with almost all the reputable clinics to maximise their income. 

I know you mentioned athletes and actors, but usually very few make the biggest incomes you hear grab the headlines and they're classed as the elite of the elite. So it's not inconceivable some make 6 figures rather than 7 figures.

Then you do have the top elite doctors making multiple millions per year after costs. 

Regarding work hours, that's also an individuals choice. They have a reputation to make people typically work around their schedules if they wanted to. 

[HairRun]

I don't think so. The ones in the big city obviously charge a premium, but there's lots of others in mid sized cities that have great reps and don't charge a lot. Even including travel and hotel you can save a lot by going to them. 

[Fue3361]

The elites have to be making easily 6 figures per month.  Even with overhead, imagine how much Konior is making, if he's charging 15 bucks per graft.  Lets say the average surgery is 1.5k grafts, that's still 22k USD per day.  Let's say he was only to work 4 days a week, that's still 360k a month.  Even with costs aside, that's a ridiculous brute income.  And this is assuming only tiny surgeries 4 days a week.  Lots of elite surgeons are working way more than 4 days a week, on bigger cases. 

[Melvin- Admin]

On 4/6/2022 at 7:58 AM, Fue3361 said:

Absolutely agreed.

Can't talk for other surgeons, but my Dr. wakes up every morning before 2AM, gets to the clinic before 4AM, is seeing patients for planning at 5AM, starts surgeries before 6AM.  He gets home after sunset.  It's not an easy life.

I’ve talked to surgeons at noon my time, and 2am their time. They’re just finishing surgery. They’ll have another in the morning. It can be brutal. These guys deserve wealth, but for many, it becomes not even about that, but more about their body of work. 

[Al - Moderator]

I have an ex girlfriend who lives in California and makes $300k working as an ICU nurse at a hospital. If the Drs are not making more than that then they are not being paid enough.

 

[Al - Moderator]

On 4/4/2022 at 6:57 PM, trynagetaHT said:

I’ve recently been looking at hair transplant prices and they seem exorbitant in the US (and even worldly across top HT clinics). Assuming a doctor works 3 weeks less than all weekdays (261), they’re working 240 days. Let’s assume they, on average, do around 10k FUE grafts a day across several patients and charge $8 a graft. 

This means they make close to $20 million a year. Isn’t that unreasonably high?

 

The average FUE grafts done by a Dr per day in the USA is under 1500 grafts. They don't make anywhere near what you are saying. They also have to pay a team of techs and a consultant which probably averages $35 per hour for each one and more like $40 when you factor in the social security and medicare tax and cost of benefits the Dr has to pay. The anesthesiologist will be making a lot more than that. Then there's rent for the facility which can be over $25k per month. Plus there's utility bills, equipment, etc.

 

 

[NARMAK]

1 hour ago, BeHappy said:

I have an ex girlfriend who lives in California and makes $300k working as an ICU nurse at a hospital. If the Drs are not making more than that then they are not being paid enough.

 

Jeez Louise. That's a lotta moolah for a nurse to be on. 

I know people talk about income being linked to the relative costs in an area, but it just blows my mind sometimes reading these examples. 

I guess that said, it always comes back to "The market charges what the demand will pay" and it always will. 

[H.K]

Specially when looking at world class surgeon , I believe HT surgeon is more like an artist . 

Cost is dependent on surgeon art and skill and market demand , not the actual surgery cost in anyway . 

 

 

[Melvin- Admin]

On 4/9/2022 at 5:46 AM, NARMAK said:

Jeez Louise. That's a lotta moolah for a nurse to be on. 

I know people talk about income being linked to the relative costs in an area, but it just blows my mind sometimes reading these examples. 

I guess that said, it always comes back to "The market charges what the demand will pay" and it always will. 

It depends where in California you live, in the bay area, the average home costs 1.6 million dollars. The cost of living is through the roof. So, 300K on paper sounds like a lot, but when it costs over a million to buy a home, it's average.

[NARMAK]

5 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

It depends where in California you live, in the bay area, the average home costs 1.6 million dollars. The cost of living is through the roof. So, 300K on paper sounds like a lot, but when it costs over a million to buy a home, it's average.

Honestly, i guess i'm just surprised by how bad things are in the world when first world problems like being able to probably pay for shelter and bills look like everyday 3rd world problems lol. 

Then it just makes it even more stark how elective a procedure a hair transplant becomes. Something a lot of people might want but can't afford from reputable clinics so they end up at these Horror Mills and the cycle continues. 

I hope something changes at some point where we have a bit of a better balance kept between somebody reputable and pricing or there's gonna be even more guys hitting this forum after the fact needing repairs. 

[Hairy Henderson]

Simple supply vs demand.

 Considering how big the market is, I’m surprised more top docs haven’t entered this niche.

 

 If more docs would enter and/or present ones step up their game to achieve excellent results, then more competition and prices would come down.