Verteporfin HAIR REGENERATION HUMAN TRIAL Dr. Barghouthi *OFFICIAL THREAD

[DrTBarghouthi]

Yes. I aimed to make the area as small as possible in order to be able to go back to it. I extracted 7-8 follicles in each spot. I will provide the other details of density etc that I have. I technically aimed to keep the spot very small and heavily extracted in order to be able to see any changes with better clarity. 

[Hairlossingfast]

Would vertaporfin be a cure for patients with DUPA?

[Dragonsphere]

Dr Bisanga has posted a Verteporfin video. 

It doesn't go into anything further than was discussed in his interview with Melvin. 

It does appear to confirm that he will conduct the trial and that his interest won't fizzle out like Dr Mohebi's did. 

[bigmistake]

13 hours ago, Dragonsphere said:

Dr Bisanga has posted a Verteporfin video. 

It doesn't go into anything further than was discussed in his interview with Melvin. 

It does appear to confirm that he will conduct the trial and that his interest won't fizzle out like Dr Mohebi's did. 

I'm just waiting for Dr Bloxham's update on Verteporfin. In FUT you don't need any special device or SMP to see if verteporfin is working or not. In FUT it is either working or it isn't. Even if there is no growth of grafts and the scarring is reduced considerably, I would say that is a win. 

Does anyone over here have any contact with Dr Bloxham ?

[bigmistake]

18 hours ago, Dragonsphere said:

Dr Bisanga has posted a Verteporfin video. 

It doesn't go into anything further than was discussed in his interview with Melvin. 

It does appear to confirm that he will conduct the trial and that his interest won't fizzle out like Dr Mohebi's did. 

He has also held a vote for a trial on the community page of his youtube channel.

[ijustbethinkin]

As there were no transections and the area is marked with SMP if the 6/7 grafts regrow we have definitive proof that Vertoporfin regrows hair. Very exciting, im sure many members here will holding their breath until months 4-6 to see prelimanary results. Using 6  extractions as a rough guide we could begin to estimate how much regrowth we could expect across a full FUE for example 4/6 regrow it could roughly translate to a 60% regrowth rate.

[Nikoni]

On 3/26/2024 at 5:44 AM, DrTBarghouthi said:

Yes. I aimed to make the area as small as possible in order to be able to go back to it. I extracted 7-8 follicles in each spot. I will provide the other details of density etc that I have. I technically aimed to keep the spot very small and heavily extracted in order to be able to see any changes with better clarity. 

Sound like a very good plan Dr. Barghouti.

Are there intermediary follow ups planned to evaluate the progress ?

[sansi]

On 3/29/2024 at 7:36 PM, Nikoni said:

Sound like a very good plan Dr. Barghouti.

Are there intermediary follow ups planned to evaluate the progress ?

hi folks, couldn't find any updates on Dr. Bloxhams trial after month 5, while it will be month 9 in two weeks.

@Fox243 maybe you have some updates from him ?

[Dragonsphere]

On 3/29/2024 at 4:03 PM, ijustbethinkin said:

As there were no transections and the area is marked with SMP if the 6/7 grafts regrow we have definitive proof that Vertoporfin regrows hair. Very exciting, im sure many members here will holding their breath until months 4-6 to see prelimanary results. Using 6  extractions as a rough guide we could begin to estimate how much regrowth we could expect across a full FUE for example 4/6 regrow it could roughly translate to a 60% regrowth rate.

I think we already have enough proof it works. We have around 5 cases clearly demonstrating hair regrowth. If we only had one case, I suppose we could always attribute the results to other variables as Dr Bisanga suggested, e.g. trichophytic closure, transacted hair, marking errors. However, when we have multiple cases showing hair regeneration then these variables are far less weighted. 

We need to move from the frame of mind of if it works to how can we improve upon it. 

Apart from figuring out the correct dose which this current test should do, we should be considering doing multiple rounds, FUEing into the donor region for areas that did not regenerate. 

Scar revision therapy involves can involve multiple procedures, I don't see any difference with this case. 

The picture below for the lowest dose you can see that the areas of scarring just look healthy than the control region; there is less fibrotic pearl like tissue. The 0.4 dose showed no fibrotic tissue and the 0.3 minimum. 

The reason why it works better with FUE than FUT is for multiple reasons. Primarily the procedure is less invasive and also that environment for which verteporfin needs to work is similar to what is was like prior to any surgery. FUT leaves the area in a high degree of tension and the fibrotic tissue tends to be more raised. 

Imagine if we did another round, FUEing into the area void of hair in the below patient at the same dose. I would imagine the % of regeneration on the second attempt would be similar to the first. You could just keep doing this over and over and over again, essentially giving you a unlimited donor supply. 

The next test should be something along these lines, as even if we could reach 100% regeneration (which is not guaranteed) this method would still give an unlimited donor area. 

I also mentioned previously about verteporfin being used to regenerate previously transplanted hair but I think this scenario is more practical and likely to work. 

For your consideration @DrTBarghouthi. 

[Fox243]

1 hour ago, Dragonsphere said:

I think we already have enough proof it works. We have around 5 cases clearly demonstrating hair regrowth. If we only had one case, I suppose we could always attribute the results to other variables as Dr Bisanga suggested, e.g. trichophytic closure, transacted hair, marking errors. However, when we have multiple cases showing hair regeneration then these variables are far less weighted. 

We need to move from the frame of mind of if it works to how can we improve upon it. 

Apart from figuring out the correct dose which this current test should do, we should be considering doing multiple rounds, FUEing into the donor region for areas that did not regenerate. 

Scar revision therapy involves can involve multiple procedures, I don't see any difference with this case. 

The picture below for the lowest dose you can see that the areas of scarring just look healthy than the control region; there is less fibrotic pearl like tissue. The 0.4 dose showed no fibrotic tissue and the 0.3 minimum. 

The reason why it works better with FUE than FUT is for multiple reasons. Primarily the procedure is less invasive and also that environment for which verteporfin needs to work is similar to what is was like prior to any surgery. FUT leaves the area in a high degree of tension and the fibrotic tissue tends to be more raised. 

Imagine if we did another round, FUEing into the area void of hair in the below patient at the same dose. I would imagine the % of regeneration on the second attempt would be similar to the first. You could just keep doing this over and over and over again, essentially giving you a unlimited donor supply. 

The next test should be something along these lines, as even if we could reach 100% regeneration (which is not guaranteed) this method would still give an unlimited donor area. 

I also mentioned previously about verteporfin being used to regenerate previously transplanted hair but I think this scenario is more practical and likely to work. 

For your consideration @DrTBarghouthi. 

Fwiw, unless Dr. Barghouthi wants to, there should be zero expectation that he will do another trial. He’s already gone above and beyond by running two trials, with the latest being extremely meticulous. The goal now should be to convince other doctors to try. 

[Dragonsphere]

Agreed, which is why I said for his consideration. 

But the core of what I said still stands. 

If you could keep FUEing into the areas void of hair and the regeneration rate is the same, that would result in an unlimited donor area, regardless of what the regeneration rate is. 

 

[CureSeeker]

I've been watching these verteporfin trials and find them very exciting. One thing I'm very interested in is whether hair could be regenerated simply by combining verteporfin with deep microneedling, or something similar. Or perhaps with tissue punches that are smaller than FUE punches and don't actually remove follicles, only skin tissue - like a more destructive needle.

If it works and generates new follicles in the damaged are, then transplants may not be needed at all, and you could simply treat the balding area directly and repeatedly until fully regenerated.

Performing an experiment to test it would likely be even easier and less risky since there's no transplant taking place. And if it doesn't generate new follicles, then the balding area will simply be unchanged.

[Dragonsphere]

30 minutes ago, CureSeeker said:

I've been watching these verteporfin trials and find them very exciting. One thing I'm very interested in is whether hair could be regenerated simply by combining verteporfin with deep microneedling, or something similar. Or perhaps with tissue punches that are smaller than FUE punches and don't actually remove follicles, only skin tissue - like a more destructive needle.

If it works and generates new follicles in the damaged are, then transplants may not be needed at all, and you could simply treat the balding area directly and repeatedly until fully regenerated.

Performing an experiment to test it would likely be even easier and less risky since there's no transplant taking place. And if it doesn't generate new follicles, then the balding area will simply be unchanged.

This I'm afraid wouldn't be practical. 

Our bodies know how bald we are meant to be at anyone time and if any none dht sensitive hair appeared on  the scalp from an area void for many years, it will quicky disappear. 

Dr Hamilton (creator of the noorwood scale) demonstrated this via injection of testosterone on castrates. Castrated men who received testosterone injections started to bald in the pattern of their siblings who were already bald. What was even more interesting is that it only took around 6 months for them to achieve total baldness. 

For us hair loss sufferers, it has to be the donor area. 

 

 

[Square1]

5 hours ago, Dragonsphere said:

Agreed, which is why I said for his consideration. 

But the core of what I said still stands. 

If you could keep FUEing into the areas void of hair and the regeneration rate is the same, that would result in an unlimited donor area, regardless of what the regeneration rate is. 

 

When you count 5 cases of vp working, which are these except from the first of dr. Barghouthi? The 3 cases of dr. Bloxham? I find those less convincing to be honest. To me it is not a foregone conclusion yet that vp does what we all hope it does. Luckily, with the trials of Kilian, dr. Barghouthi 2 and hopefully dr. Bisanga, we will have a lot more information in a couple of months.

I however completely agree with your last sentence. If all these new trials are positive, the question whether we can repeat the process on the same follicles with the same regeneration rate will be crucial.

 

 

[CureSeeker]

6 minutes ago, Dragonsphere said:

This I'm afraid wouldn't be practical. 

Our bodies know how bald we are meant to be at anyone time and if any none dht sensitive hair appeared on  the scalp from an area void for many years, it will quicky disappear. 

Dr Hamilton (creator of the noorwood scale) demonstrated this via injection of testosterone on castrates. Castrated men who received testosterone injections started to bald in the pattern of their siblings who were already bald. What was even more interesting is that it only took around 6 months for them to achieve total baldness. 

For us hair loss sufferers, it has to be the donor area. 

 

 

Perhaps, but I don't think that's necessarily dispositive, and it would certainly be premature to write it off so early without testing it, especially considering the desperate lack of effective treatments, and the relative non-invasiveness and simplicity of the proposed treatment. A few points I want to make:

First, his experiment used test subjects (castrated and mentally ill) that weren't very representative of the target population. Removing or disabling an organ in the body that produces hormones could have many side effects on the body that we don't know about or understand, which could have downstream effects on how the body functions or reacts to exogenous testosterone. His experiment provides some insight and shows an interesting connection between testosterone and balding, but trying to conclude from it that verteporfin-generated follicles on the scalp would be destined for failure is reading way too much into it.

Second, it could be that follicles need years or decades of testosterone/DHT exposure before miniaturizing. Even in his experiment, many of those men probably went through their childhoods and adolescent years producing testosterone, and even after castration the body produces some in places like adrenal glands. That may have weakened their follicles over the decades, and then his experiment was enough to push them over the edge. If that's the case, then brand new follicles generated by verteporfin might begin with a “blank history” of exposure, and would themselves need decades before miniaturizing.

Third, even if we assume that the new follicles are almost immediately susceptible to miniaturization, that might simply mean you would need maintenance treatments every few months or years. Many men would happily take that option if it meant having a full head of hair. Many already undergo treatments like PRP injections every few weeks or months, despite its poor results. I certainly wouldn’t deem it impractical.

Fourth, there’s much we don’t know about both hair loss and verteporfin’s effects. For all we know, the new follicles could be like those found in the donor region (DHT-resistant), despite not being in the donor region. To be clear, I’m not saying verteporfin will be an absolute cure. But it could be. We just don’t know yet. And we don’t know which treatment mode will be the easiest or most effective. If microneedling+verteporfin on the scalp works, then I would certainly rather do that than undergo transplants.

Balding men are suffering from a terrible, cruel disease and many are desperate to find a cure. So when a promising new treatment presents itself (especially an FDA-approved, non-systemic one), we should explore all the possibilities. It would be a shame to be so close to a cure (or easier treatment mode), yet miss it entirely because we weren’t willing to look.

[DrTBarghouthi]

Hi guys. Many thanks for the positive feedback and messages. I will publish some photos of the follow up . The patient came today for his 10 days followup. Thankfully everything was good in terms of no adverse effects or allergic reactions reported. I’ll publish some photos soon. 
I will also like to reassure you that I will hopefully proceed with further trials as seen necessary and looking forward to collaboration with other Doctors mentioned. 

[Nikoni]

6 hours ago, DrTBarghouthi said:

Hi guys. Many thanks for the positive feedback and messages. I will publish some photos of the follow up . The patient came today for his 10 days followup. Thankfully everything was good in terms of no adverse effects or allergic reactions reported. I’ll publish some photos soon. 
I will also like to reassure you that I will hopefully proceed with further trials as seen necessary and looking forward to collaboration with other Doctors mentioned. 

Can't thank you enough Doctor, you are a true hero!
As for further trials, do you intend to do older FUE scars revision or injuring and injecting verteporfin in balding area ?

[Dragonsphere]

14 hours ago, CureSeeker said:

Perhaps, but I don't think that's necessarily dispositive, and it would certainly be premature to write it off so early without testing it, especially considering the desperate lack of effective treatments, and the relative non-invasiveness and simplicity of the proposed treatment. A few points I want to make:

First, his experiment used test subjects (castrated and mentally ill) that weren't very representative of the target population. Removing or disabling an organ in the body that produces hormones could have many side effects on the body that we don't know about or understand, which could have downstream effects on how the body functions or reacts to exogenous testosterone. His experiment provides some insight and shows an interesting connection between testosterone and balding, but trying to conclude from it that verteporfin-generated follicles on the scalp would be destined for failure is reading way too much into it.

Second, it could be that follicles need years or decades of testosterone/DHT exposure before miniaturizing. Even in his experiment, many of those men probably went through their childhoods and adolescent years producing testosterone, and even after castration the body produces some in places like adrenal glands. That may have weakened their follicles over the decades, and then his experiment was enough to push them over the edge. If that's the case, then brand new follicles generated by verteporfin might begin with a “blank history” of exposure, and would themselves need decades before miniaturizing.

Third, even if we assume that the new follicles are almost immediately susceptible to miniaturization, that might simply mean you would need maintenance treatments every few months or years. Many men would happily take that option if it meant having a full head of hair. Many already undergo treatments like PRP injections every few weeks or months, despite its poor results. I certainly wouldn’t deem it impractical.

Fourth, there’s much we don’t know about both hair loss and verteporfin’s effects. For all we know, the new follicles could be like those found in the donor region (DHT-resistant), despite not being in the donor region. To be clear, I’m not saying verteporfin will be an absolute cure. But it could be. We just don’t know yet. And we don’t know which treatment mode will be the easiest or most effective. If microneedling+verteporfin on the scalp works, then I would certainly rather do that than undergo transplants.

Balding men are suffering from a terrible, cruel disease and many are desperate to find a cure. So when a promising new treatment presents itself (especially an FDA-approved, non-systemic one), we should explore all the possibilities. It would be a shame to be so close to a cure (or easier treatment mode), yet miss it entirely because we weren’t willing to look.

Hamilton's example is just the most popular one that people refer to. In every instance, the introduction of androgens will cause people to reach there genetic pattern within a matter of months. I am not going to list every example but you can Google it.  This is a fact and is indisputable. To give a final example, look at the below graph, the group who were on Propecia for the first year and switched to placebo lost hair at a far faster rate than those who were on placebo to begin with. 

This is why those of us on DHT inhibitors are in such a precarious situation. 

Verteporfin would cause the follicles outside the donor zone to regenerate to how they were, i.e., susceptible to male pattern baldness. 

I am not saying that it wouldn't work, what I am saying is by the very definition it would not be a cure! It would require one to take prevention medication for the rest of their life. 

Most men who have hair transplants don't take Propecia, most men on Propecia would obviously prefer not to be on it. I, myself, take Dutasteride and am concerned regarding the long term effects of the drug. 

If we can regenerate donor hair, all it would take is 1-3 dense pack procedures and one would never have to worry about hair loss again. No Propecia, Dutasteride, Minoxidil, lllt, etc. This is what we could consider a cure to be. 

In regards to MPB being a 'terrible, cruel disease,' that just suggests mental instability. 

 

Edited April 1 by Dragonsphere

[TV_on_LazerDisk]

6 hours ago, Dragonsphere said:

Hamilton's example is just the most popular one that people refer to. In every instance, the introduction of androgens will cause people to reach there genetic pattern within a matter of months. I am not going to list every example but you can Google it.  This is a fact and is indisputable. To give a final example, look at the below graph, the group who were on Propecia for the first year and switched to placebo lost hair at a far faster rate than those who were on placebo to begin with. 

This is why those of us on DHT inhibitors are in such a precarious situation. 

Verteporfin would cause the follicles outside the donor zone to regenerate to how they were, i.e., susceptible to male pattern baldness. 

I am not saying that it wouldn't work, what I am saying is by the very definition it would not be a cure! It would require one to take prevention medication for the rest of their life. 

Most men who have hair transplants don't take Propecia, most men on Propecia would obviously prefer not to be on it. I, myself, take Dutasteride and am concerned regarding the long term effects of the drug. 

If we can regenerate donor hair, all it would take is 1-3 dense pack procedures and one would never have to worry about hair loss again. No Propecia, Dutasteride, Minoxidil, lllt, etc. This is what we could consider a cure to be. 

In regards to MPB being a 'terrible, cruel disease,' that just suggests mental instability. 

 

Off topic but what do you think of the injecting of Dermal Papilla cells as preventure for future hair loss

[Worker1212]

11 hours ago, Dragonsphere said:

Hamilton's example is just the most popular one that people refer to. In every instance, the introduction of androgens will cause people to reach there genetic pattern within a matter of months. I am not going to list every example but you can Google it.  This is a fact and is indisputable. To give a final example, look at the below graph, the group who were on Propecia for the first year and switched to placebo lost hair at a far faster rate than those who were on placebo to begin with. 

This is why those of us on DHT inhibitors are in such a precarious situation. 

Verteporfin would cause the follicles outside the donor zone to regenerate to how they were, i.e., susceptible to male pattern baldness. 

I am not saying that it wouldn't work, what I am saying is by the very definition it would not be a cure! It would require one to take prevention medication for the rest of their life. 

Most men who have hair transplants don't take Propecia, most men on Propecia would obviously prefer not to be on it. I, myself, take Dutasteride and am concerned regarding the long term effects of the drug. 

If we can regenerate donor hair, all it would take is 1-3 dense pack procedures and one would never have to worry about hair loss again. No Propecia, Dutasteride, Minoxidil, lllt, etc. This is what we could consider a cure to be. 

In regards to MPB being a 'terrible, cruel disease,' that just suggests mental instability. 

 

Agreed, I believe most of or all of us would prefer in the first place not to take it if we werent suspectible to balding. Its definetly brutal too how mentally it effects all of us, and I believe alot of us if we were to start taking it would be far down the road in relation to prostates.

[CureSeeker]

17 hours ago, Dragonsphere said:

Verteporfin would cause the follicles outside the donor zone to regenerate to how they were, i.e., susceptible to male pattern baldness. 

Sorry, but you simply don't know at this stage whether those follicles would function like that. The only way we would know is by testing it, which no one has done. The experiments you're citing are not testing it, and you're inferring/extrapolating from them how this test would result, but that's just not how biology works. There are always more variables involved that we aren't even remotely aware of.

Quote

I am not saying that it wouldn't work, what I am saying is by the very definition it would not be a cure! It would require one to take prevention medication for the rest of their life. 

I'm not saying it would be a cure either, or would even need to be a full-blown cure. It does have the potential to be a cure, which you're claiming is impossible ("it would not be a cure"). You don't know if it would require preventive medication. As I mentioned earlier, even if the new follicles were DHT-susceptible, it might only mean you need repeated treatments to maintain renewed follicles. For most men suffering from baldness, they would consider that effectively a cure, so long as it gives them a full head of natural hair. Whether or not it's technically a full blown "cure" isn't that important. What matters is if it's capable of producing real, natural hair. The tradeoffs of cost, side effects, upkeep, etc are all questions for the individual patient to weigh for himself.

Someone absolutely should run this simple experiment.

[Berba11]

On 3/26/2024 at 5:44 AM, Hairlossingfast said:

Would vertaporfin be a cure for patients with DUPA?

Let's learn to crawl first before we attempt to sprint with a somersault at the end.

[bigmistake]

On 3/26/2024 at 11:14 AM, Hairlossingfast said:

Would vertaporfin be a cure for patients with DUPA?

The reason DUPA patients are advised against a HT is because the from the donor will thin out and the scars will be visible. If verteporfin leads to reduced scarring then some DUPA patients could get a HT, because if it doesn't work out then they can simply shave.

[Dragonsphere]

13 hours ago, CureSeeker said:

Sorry, but you simply don't know at this stage whether those follicles would function like that. The only way we would know is by testing it, which no one has done. The experiments you're citing are not testing it, and you're inferring/extrapolating from them how this test would result, but that's just not how biology works. There are always more variables involved that we aren't even remotely aware of.

Actually, what I have shown you is exactly how biology works in respect to hair loss. The hair on the back and sides of our head has a completely different genetic make-up to the top. To think that follicles regenerated would poses the characterises of the back and sides,  we might as well consider the possibility they will look like hair on your balls and I am not being facetious when I say that. At best it is wishful thinking.

It is not an extrapolation as we have a pretty good understanding of how the drug works combined with basic understanding of hairloss we can make a fairly good assumption as to what will happen. 

13 hours ago, CureSeeker said:

I'm not saying it would be a cure either, or would even need to be a full-blown cure. It does have the potential to be a cure, which you're claiming is impossible ("it would not be a cure"). You don't know if it would require preventive medication. As I mentioned earlier, even if the new follicles were DHT-susceptible, it might only mean you need repeated treatments to maintain renewed follicles. For most men suffering from baldness, they would consider that effectively a cure, so long as it gives them a full head of natural hair. Whether or not it's technically a full blown "cure" isn't that important. What matters is if it's capable of producing real, natural hair. The tradeoffs of cost, side effects, upkeep, etc are all questions for the individual patient to weigh for himself

The hair follicles WILL be DHT sensitive. As you have articulated it will require long term medication otherwise you will quickly 'uncure' yourself. It took less than 6 months for castrates to loose their hair; likely the newly formed hair will go before it even reaches a terminal stage. From an empirical standpoint, again, most people who have transplants do not take medication. Using donor hair is a long term solution for everybody, it would become gold standard. 

You could have a Noorwood 1 hairline and not have to apply a greasy topical every morning. You don't have to take a endocrine altering medication with unforeseen consequences. 

I am not saying this test would be a waste of time.  I am saying with the limited number of tests we should try and prove the best possible outcome which is unlimited donor hair. 

Everything else is secondary.

I am not going to argue this case anymore as this thread should move on with healthy discourse. 

[CureSeeker]

46 minutes ago, Dragonsphere said:

Actually, what I have shown you is exactly how biology works in respect to hair loss. The hair on the back and sides of our head has a completely different genetic make-up to the top. To think that follicles regenerated would poses the characterises of the back and sides,  we might as well consider the possibility they will look like hair on your balls and I am not being facetious when I say that. At best it is wishful thinking.

It is not an extrapolation as we have a pretty good understanding of how the drug works combined with basic understanding of hairloss we can make a fairly good assumption as to what will happen. 

The hair follicles WILL be DHT sensitive. As you have articulated it will require long term medication otherwise you will quickly 'uncure' yourself. It took less than 6 months for castrates to loose their hair; likely the newly formed hair will go before it even reaches a terminal stage. From an empirical standpoint, again, most people who have transplants do not take medication. Using donor hair is a long term solution for everybody, it would become gold standard. 

You could have a Noorwood 1 hairline and not have to apply a greasy topical every morning. You don't have to take a endocrine altering medication with unforeseen consequences. 

I am not saying this test would be a waste of time.  I am saying with the limited number of tests we should try and prove the best possible outcome which is unlimited donor hair. 

Everything else is secondary.

I am not going to argue this case anymore as this thread should move on with healthy discourse. 

That's okay, you don't need to respond any more. Let me try explaining this again for anyone else following along, and I'll make it shorter:

In the experiments you're referencing, those follicles are very OLD. They've lived on their scalps for decades. You could think of them as damaged by age.

In the proposed experiment, these would be brand NEW follicles.

OLD ≠ NEW

OLD and NEW follicles may react differently to DHT, even if they have the same genetic makeup or DHT sensitivity. They have different states. You have not shown any experiment that tests it. You've only shown experiments that test OLD follicles.