Topical Dutasteride

[BurnieBurns]

31 minutes ago, mustang said:

Exactly the same here. Had 800 plus levels and got down to 350 despite stopping for 2 years.

I also workout 5-6 times a week and eat well. I manage to get it up to 550 at one point being super strict but free T was still in the tank

On TRT for life now., 75mg a week and 750 HCG.

The Finasteride debate can be decisive as politics. One thing i Know about it is where there is smoke there's fire.

[RTC]

Bloody hell^. And there are still people who refuse to acknowledge 5AR blockers have any negative effect on people at all.

Recently, I have noticed continual lack of morning wood, and my only conclusion is that it's from topical dut. I am now stopping the dut to see if the issues fixes itself.

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by RTC

[GoliGoliGoli]

17 hours ago, sunsurfhair said:

Same. I’m on TRT now thanks to oral fin. Destroyed me. Prior had TT around 850 and also dropped me down to 300s morning reading despite a long time stopping the med. people just don’t get how horrible a drug oral fin is. FYI I’m super healthy workout 4-5 x a wk w cardio and medium to heavy lifting. Eat organic clean and keep low stress. Still couldn’t restore my T levels naturally despite all that after taking oral fin. 

 

15 hours ago, mustang said:

Exactly the same here. Had 800 plus levels and got down to 350 despite stopping for 2 years.

I also workout 5-6 times a week and eat well. I manage to get it up to 550 at one point being super strict but free T was still in the tank

On TRT for life now., 75mg a week and 750 HCG.

A drop from the 800's into the 300's (Call it a 60% drop) is inexplicable in terms of "Your T levels fluctuate, bro", especially considering the timing of also being on Fin. 

[sunsurfhair]

3 hours ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

 

A drop from the 800's into the 300's (Call it a 60% drop) is inexplicable in terms of "Your T levels fluctuate, bro", especially considering the timing of also being on Fin. 

Yep and I have before and after labs. So there is with absolute doubt it hammered my hormonal profile. E2 (estradiol) shot through the roof and my DHT was below range at the beginning. It was a horror. Imagine a swing like that for a man and what that can do. 

When 5AR is blocked, Test may increase or alternatively, you will over aromatize (test into estrogen) which is why so many get high estrogen sides - libido, ED, anxiety/panic, gyno, severe form of prostate cancer (very rare but very possible) sweating, brain fog, etc. I’ve posted before, 5AR inhibitors act on many pathways. My belief is the sexual symptoms are driven by the hormonal cascade I describe above, while the neurological symptoms are driven by the blockage of allopregnenolone, a massively important neurosteroid to the central nervous system / the brain which can trigger a host of issues.  
 

People will always get hit at some point - quite mildly, moderately or severely, but they will be hit. Some immediate some 10 years down the line. For the mild cases, I believe they don’t even realize it’s from the med, or the sides are so mild they don’t mind (lower libido for example). There is a “PFS” which is just language for a drug induced damage that continues - this can and does happen. There are men who are lucky that stop the drug and their bodies are able to bounce back. Others not so much. 
 

a lot of times I can even tell looking a guy if they are on fin or dut and getting estrogenic - they have a more feminine look to them both face and body. 

please realize I am just sharing my story and information to help others - I know there are many who take fin w no issue or are not concerned and it’s totally up to an individual if they choose to do so or not. I always support a persons right. But this drug absolutely does major damage there is absolutely no question. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by sunsurfhair

[GoliGoliGoli]

1 minute ago, sunsurfhair said:

Yep and I have before and after labs. So there is with absolute doubt it hammered my hormonal profile. E2 (estradiol) shot through the roof and my DHT was below range at the beginning. It was a horror. Imagine a swing like that for a man and what that can do. 

When 5AR is blocked, Test may increase or alternatively, you will over aromatize (test into estrogen) which is why so many get high estrogen sides - libido, ED, anxiety/panic, gyno, severe form of prostate cancer (very rare but very possible) sweating, brain fog, etc. I’ve posted before, 5AR inhibitors act on many pathways. My belief is the sexual symptoms are driven by the hormonal cascade I describe above, while the neurological symptoms are driven by the blockage of allopregnenolone, a massively important neurosteroid to the central nervous system / the brain which can trigger a host of issues.  
 

People will always get hit at some point - quite mildly, moderately or severely, but they will be hit. Some immediate some 10 years down the line. For the mild cases, I believe they don’t even realize it’s from the med, or the sides are so mild they don’t mind (lower libido for example). 
 

a lot of times I can even tell looking a guy if they are on fin or dut and getting estrogenic - they have a more feminine look to them both face and body. 

please realize I am just sharing my story and information to help others - I know there are many who take fin w no issue or are not concerned and it’s totally up to an individual if they choose to do so or not. I always support a persons right. But this drug absolutely does major damage there is absolutely no question. 

Yes I agree with pretty much everything here. Ray Peat (Famous endocrinologist) has written a lot about the negative effects of high estrogen (Not only in men but women as well). 

 

Out of curiosity, how many months apart were the tests that had you at 800's initially and then at 300's?

[sunsurfhair]

Just now, GoliGoliGoli said:

Yes I agree with pretty much everything here. Ray Peat (Famous endocrinologist) has written a lot about the negative effects of high estrogen (Not only in men but women as well). 

 

Out of curiosity, how many months apart were the tests that had you at 800's initially and then at 300's?

My last physical with test labs were done (by chance) 3 months before I started Propecia. 850 total t. After getting very ill on the med after about a year, I got off, crashed and my labs were run multiple times over a 2 year period with the same horrible profile for a young man (early 30s). The highest I ever got my T back was to 450 and that was with a ton of T positive supplements, HEAVY lifting , and eating as clean as can be plus meditation and stress exercises. Free T was still in the toilet tho. And trust me we exhausted all other causes of the low t - it was the ruined hormonal profile that never went back to baseline from the med. 

[win200]

1 minute ago, sunsurfhair said:

My last physical with test labs were done (by chance) 3 months before I started Propecia. 850 total t. After getting very ill on the med after about a year, I got off, crashed and my labs were run multiple times over a 2 year period with the same horrible profile for a young man (early 30s). The highest I ever got my T back was to 450 and that was with a ton of T positive supplements, HEAVY lifting , and eating as clean as can be plus meditation and stress exercises. Free T was still in the toilet tho. And trust me we exhausted all other causes of the low t - it was the ruined hormonal profile that never went back to baseline from the med. 

This (and the other stories) are interesting. I was on Propecia/Avodart for ten years and just dropped in September (on topical now). My total t was very high (~800) on those meds and remains that high, but free t was low on them and stays low as well. I don't have before blood work to compare given how long I was on the meds, but wonder if they've had an impact on free t. The cause of the low free t is high SHBG. 

[sunsurfhair]

2 minutes ago, win200 said:

This (and the other stories) are interesting. I was on Propecia/Avodart for ten years and just dropped in September (on topical now). My total t was very high (~800) on those meds and remains that high, but free t was low on them and stays low as well. I don't have before blood work to compare given how long I was on the meds, but wonder if they've had an impact on free t. The cause of the low free t is high SHBG. 

The reported increases in T levels with finasteride or dutasteride in men with low baseline serum T may be attributed, in part, to increased trapping of T by unsaturated sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) due to dissociation of 5α-dihydrotestosterone. In men with high baseline T levels, there appears to be no change in serum T levels. 10 studies reported luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, SHBG, and estradiol values and none reported significant changes in their levels, suggesting that observed changes in serum T levels are unlikely mediated by gonadotropins levels or peripheral conversion of T to estradiol.
 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2050052118300805

[sunsurfhair]

3 minutes ago, win200 said:

This (and the other stories) are interesting. I was on Propecia/Avodart for ten years and just dropped in September (on topical now). My total t was very high (~800) on those meds and remains that high, but free t was low on them and stays low as well. I don't have before blood work to compare given how long I was on the meds, but wonder if they've had an impact on free t. The cause of the low free t is high SHBG. 

Boron and Tonkgat can both lower SHBG and there may be some other herbals that can too - it’s worth a try to see if that helps you. There are some pharmaceuticals that lower SHBG, but I wouldn’t mess w those. 

[GoliGoliGoli]

8 minutes ago, win200 said:

This (and the other stories) are interesting. I was on Propecia/Avodart for ten years and just dropped in September (on topical now). My total t was very high (~800) on those meds and remains that high, but free t was low on them and stays low as well. I don't have before blood work to compare given how long I was on the meds, but wonder if they've had an impact on free t. The cause of the low free t is high SHBG. 

If you don't mind sharing, what was your free T as a % of total? Generally supposed to be between 1.6-2.9%

[win200]

3 minutes ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

If you don't mind sharing, what was your free T as a % of total? Generally supposed to be between 1.6-2.9%

.7%. And I can tell. Reduced libido, erectile activity, etc.

[sunsurfhair]

1 minute ago, win200 said:

.7%. And I can tell. Reduced libido, erectile activity, etc.

Sorry to hear my friend. Here is a good example of someone who got hit much later despite years of usage. 

[win200]

Just now, sunsurfhair said:

Sorry to hear my friend. Here is a good example of someone who got hit much later despite years of usage. 

To be clear, these are all symptoms that I had on the medication due to increased SHBG being freed up by lower DHT. It's just that the free t level hasn't increased as I dropped the med. And, to be candid, I always had some of these symptoms even prior to starting the meds at 28, so it's not 100% that the meds caused the issue, although they almost certainly exacerbated it.

[sunsurfhair]

1 minute ago, win200 said:

To be clear, these are all symptoms that I had on the medication due to increased SHBG being freed up by lower DHT. It's just that the free t level hasn't increased as I dropped the med. And, to be candid, I always had some of these symptoms even prior to starting the meds at 28, so it's not 100% that the meds caused the issue, although they almost certainly exacerbated it.

That’s a good sign then. My SHBG never went high like that, I just stayed in this “low t” profile post the med. If you can find a way to get the SHBG down again, you should see some alleviation of your symptoms hopefully. How’s your Estradiol and DHT look?

[GoliGoliGoli]

2 minutes ago, win200 said:

To be clear, these are all symptoms that I had on the medication due to increased SHBG being freed up by lower DHT. It's just that the free t level hasn't increased as I dropped the med. And, to be candid, I always had some of these symptoms even prior to starting the meds at 28, so it's not 100% that the meds caused the issue, although they almost certainly exacerbated it.

Agreed it's always hard to flesh out exactly what was causative versus what was coincidence versus what was exacerbative. 

As I said in a previous thread, we also are already swimming in a sea of endocrine disrupting chemicals already due to our food systems and general toxic modern environment. 

[win200]

7 minutes ago, sunsurfhair said:

That’s a good sign then. My SHBG never went high like that, I just stayed in this “low t” profile post the med. If you can find a way to get the SHBG down again, you should see some alleviation of your symptoms hopefully. How’s your Estradiol and DHT look?

Last draw on 7/25 had total t at 738, SHBG at 57.5, estradiol at 16, free test at 0.7%, DHT at 58, LH at 1.8. Total t was a little lower than normal but that's not a big swing, and tested a bit later in the day from optimal.

Results on 3/24, for contrast, had total t at 872, SHBG at 61.5, estradiol at 24, free test at 0.7%, and DHT at 46.

My take is that these are all good numbers with the exception of the free test. So the meds didn't cause my profile to tank; there's just a free t issue. Open to other perspectives, though.

Edited August 30, 2022 by win200

[sunsurfhair]

1 hour ago, win200 said:

Last draw on 7/25 had total t at 738, SHBG at 57.5, estradiol at 16, free test at 0.7%, DHT at 58, LH at 1.8. Total t was a little lower than normal but that's not a big swing, and tested a bit later in the day from optimal.

Results on 3/24, for contrast, had total t at 872, SHBG at 61.5, estradiol at 24, free test at 0.7%, and DHT at 46.

My take is that these are all good numbers with the exception of the free test. So the meds didn't cause my profile to tank; there's just a free t issue. Open to other perspectives, though.

Agree profile looks great except for the higher SHBG binding the free t. Everything else is in a solid ratio. 

[Melvin- Admin]

@win200 You don't have to answer this if you don't want too, but are you on TRT or exogenous hormones? Many including myself have wondered how hair loss can fare with 5aris and TRT.

[sunsurfhair]

1 hour ago, win200 said:

Last draw on 7/25 had total t at 738, SHBG at 57.5, estradiol at 16, free test at 0.7%, DHT at 58, LH at 1.8. Total t was a little lower than normal but that's not a big swing, and tested a bit later in the day from optimal.

Results on 3/24, for contrast, had total t at 872, SHBG at 61.5, estradiol at 24, free test at 0.7%, and DHT at 46.

My take is that these are all good numbers with the exception of the free test. So the meds didn't cause my profile to tank; there's just a free t issue. Open to other perspectives, though.

Some general good advice on trying to lower SHBG naturally. 
 

1. Eat Cruciferous Vegetables

Eating cruciferous vegetables such as broccoli, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, cabbage, curry kale and bok choy serves to metabolise surplus estrogen and lower SHBG.

We have long been proponents of the ‘10-a-day model’ when it comes to vegetables and fruit, with 7:3 being an ideal ratio. If you regularly achieve this objective, you’ll already be helping to keep rampant SHBG levels in check.

Learn More: Reducing Bioavailable Sex Hormones Through a Comprehensive Change in Diet

2. Increase Protein

Countless studies (including this one) have exposed a correlation with protein intake and SHBG levels: the lower the protein intake, the higher the concentration of SHBG. 

The inverse is also true – the higher the protein intake, the lower the concentration of SHBG. Make sure you’re eating protein with every meal. If you’re a meat-eater, grass-fed and organic is by far the best choice.

3. Use supplements

Although further clinical studies are required, a number of supplements have shown promise for reducing unduly high SHBG levels. These include magnesium, vitamin D, fish oil, zinc, calcium, boron and tongkat 

[win200]

37 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

@win200 You don't have to answer this if you don't want too, but are you on TRT or exogenous hormones? Many including myself have wondered how hair loss can fare with 5aris and TRT.

I've run multiple steroid cycles while on 5aris with no change to my hair loss. The caveat, though, is a couple compounds interact extremely badly with 5aris and caused increased shedding--Google "finasteride and NPP", for example. When I used NPP, I lost a ton of hair. But the 5aris effectively kept my kept my hair when I was running test and other low-androgenic compounds like anavar or turinabol.

[Melvin- Admin]

4 minutes ago, win200 said:

I've run multiple steroid cycles while on 5aris with no change to my hair loss. The caveat, though, is a couple compounds interact extremely badly with 5aris and caused increased shedding--Google "finasteride and NPP", for example. When I used NPP, I lost a ton of hair. But the 5aris effectively kept my kept my hair when I was running test and other low-androgenic compounds like anavar or turinabol.

Man I would love to have you on our podcast. You have so much knowledge that isn't readily available online. I'm sure many would love to hear about your experience using AAS and 5aris. 

[win200]

1 minute ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Man I would love to have you on our podcast. You have so much knowledge that isn't readily available online. I'm sure many would love to hear about your experience using AAS and 5aris. 

I'd be happy to do it. Shoot me a message and we can trade email addresses.

[Melvin- Admin]

2 minutes ago, win200 said:

I'd be happy to do it. Shoot me a message and we can trade email addresses.

Will do!

[sunsurfhair]

30 minutes ago, win200 said:

I'd be happy to do it. Shoot me a message and we can trade email addresses.

Would love to hear your TRT protocol as well. Which topical formulation of Fin are you using now? 

[win200]

1 minute ago, sunsurfhair said:

Would love to hear your TRT protocol as well. Which topical formulation of Fin are you using now? 

No fin for me--using Dr. Mwamba's 0.1% topical dut once a week.

Last protocol was 750mg of test p per week for 12 weeks. Nothing fancy.