Topical Dutasteride

[win200]

Just now, John1991 said:

I'm quoting you, but anyone should feel free to respond.  Is topical dut likely to thicken hair more/work better than topical fin as is the case with the oral versions of these two drugs?

I would think so, intuitively. I'll be honest, though, that I'm still not 100% sure how dut works topically... it alters your endocrine system's synthesis of DHT, so doesn't make sense to me how that works only at the follicular level when it's rubbed into the scalp. Would love a cogent explanation.

[John1991]

1 minute ago, win200 said:

I would think so, intuitively. I'll be honest, though, that I'm still not 100% sure how dut works topically... it alters your endocrine system's synthesis of DHT, so doesn't make sense to me how that works only at the follicular level when it's rubbed into the scalp. Would love a cogent explanation.

I figure it would.  I've read topical fin is less likely to produce sides by a significant margin than oral fin...  I'm considering switching in the next couple of months.

Edited August 16, 2022 by John1991

[win200]

5 minutes ago, John1991 said:

I figure it would.  I've read topical fin is less likely to produce sides by a significant margin than oral fin...  I'm considering switching in the next couple of months.

I think it's going to take over, in the same way that FUE gradually displaced (for the most part) FUT. Just doesn't make sense to change your hormonal composition like that unless you absolutely have to.

[GoliGoliGoli]

23 hours ago, win200 said:

Topical dut as a larger molecular size, which means far less like to be absorbed systemically and cause side effects as a result. It's anecdotal, but there are lots of people who've reported difficulty with sides on topical fin due to its smaller molecular size. My PCP, who prescribes these meds through a compounding pharmacy, confirmed this to me. So I'd strongly come down on the side of topical dut.

On the surface this logic seems pretty sound, but I'd be curious if their are any studies showing how much topical dut lowers serum DHT compared to topical fin. I'd also wonder if the larger molecular size of Dut means it's also less able to absorb into the scalp. DHT is carried to the hair follicle by the cardiovascular system so if Dut is less able to get into the blood supply it stands to reason it's also less likely to get to the hair follicle? Just theorizing here.

This article is interesting. https://www.hairguard.com/topical-dutasteride-for-hair-loss/

Edited August 17, 2022 by GoliGoliGoli

[GoliGoliGoli]

Maybe it's possible that despite the larger molecular size, enough seeps into the scalp blood stream to prevent DHT from binding, but not enough to really cause serum levels to drop signifigantly. But I dunno I'm pretty suspicious.

I wonder if anyone here has some long term results to show from using topical Dut. To be fair I haven't read this thread as it's long as hell. 

 

Edit: I'll go through this thread later, but looking at OP I don't even see any improvment between the two pics. Hair is just longer in one I guess. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by GoliGoliGoli

[RTC]

I used to use 0.01% with dermarolling no issues.

Since my procedure with Dr Mwamba, I have been using 0.05% Dut with no dermarolling. Been about 4 weeks now and everything was good.

But last few days I have not had my usual 'wake-up call' first thing in the morning (it's normal for me to have it).

Everything still works down there thankfully but it's a worrying sign, as I use morning wood as a benchmark of testosterone etc.

Will monitor.

[GoliGoliGoli]

8 hours ago, RTC said:

I used to use 0.01% with dermarolling no issues.

Since my procedure with Dr Mwamba, I have been using 0.05% Dut with no dermarolling. Been about 4 weeks now and everything was good.

But last few days I have not had my usual 'wake-up call' first thing in the morning (it's normal for me to have it).

Everything still works down there thankfully but it's a worrying sign, as I use morning wood as a benchmark of testosterone etc.

Will monitor.

Ya I think if it continues past more than a few days you will have a tough decision to make. 

Of course though it isn't T that you need to be concerned about as blocking 5ar actually should increase your T by inhibiting conversion of T to DHT. But I get what you're saying. 

Morning wood is also a function of how much REM sleep you're getting, so do keep that in mind as there are a lot of substances and other factors that can inhibit REM sleep. But if you've been doing everything as you usually do and still not having morning wood I agree that's a concern. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by GoliGoliGoli

[RTC]

Morning wood returned lol. But still keeping an eye on it.

[mustang]

15 hours ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

Ya I think if it continues past more than a few days you will have a tough decision to make. 

Of course though it isn't T that you need to be concerned about as blocking 5ar actually should increase your T by inhibiting conversion of T to DHT. But I get what you're saying. 

Morning wood is also a function of how much REM sleep you're getting, so do keep that in mind as there are a lot of substances and other factors that can inhibit REM sleep. But if you've been doing everything as you usually do and still not having morning wood I agree that's a concern. 

This is incorrect. Blocking 5AR decreases Total and Free Testosterone. It does not increase it, there are several studies published on the matter, you can find them online.

You can have a short lived spike in Free T when starting medication but it will eventually get aromatized into E2 consequently reducing LH output and Total T numbers while pushing up your SHBG decreasing your TT to FT ratio as well.

Finasteride, Dutasteride and 5AR blockers reduce total testosterone overtime in healthy young adults.

Trust me, I went from 800 to 350 after 12 months on it.

Edited August 19, 2022 by mustang

[mustang]

On 8/16/2022 at 7:24 PM, win200 said:

I would think so, intuitively. I'll be honest, though, that I'm still not 100% sure how dut works topically... it alters your endocrine system's synthesis of DHT, so doesn't make sense to me how that works only at the follicular level when it's rubbed into the scalp. Would love a cogent explanation.

A surgeon explained to me that as the medication encounters 5AR when passing the dermis it acts on it and doesn't go into circulation. I found this explanation rather strange and poor, it didn't make much sense to me otherwise Topical Finasteride would not go systemic either as it encounters the enzyme or we could use larger doses without sides.

What we know is that it avoids first liver pass and Dutasteride's metabolites whom are many times responsible for side effects despite the amount of DHT that fluctuates.

What I suspect or think that happens is that the amount that goes symmetric is truly negatable if applied with care (dosing and spacing) with most of it remaining in the scalp for weeks where we also know that T reduces to DHT via 5AR, specially on the skin and hair follicles.

 

 

[GoliGoliGoli]

3 hours ago, mustang said:

This is incorrect. Blocking 5AR decreases Total and Free Testosterone. It does not increase it, there are several studies published on the matter, you can find them online.

You can have a short lived spike in Free T when starting medication but it will eventually get aromatized into E2 consequently reducing LH output and Total T numbers while pushing up your SHBG decreasing your TT to FT ratio as well.

Finasteride, Dutasteride and 5AR blockers reduce total testosterone overtime in healthy young adults.

Trust me, I went from 800 to 350 after 12 months on it.

Holy cow I had no idea. I just kind of assumed since it is preventing T from converting to DHT that surely your T would rise....

 I'm sure you've obviously looked into this stuff too based on your knowledge but if you want any pointers to raise it back feel free to DM me. I was able to raise mine from 496 to 806 witihin a year and a few months. 

[hairywannabe]

3 hours ago, mustang said:

This is incorrect. Blocking 5AR decreases Total and Free Testosterone. It does not increase it, there are several studies published on the matter, you can find them online.

You can have a short lived spike in Free T when starting medication but it will eventually get aromatized into E2 consequently reducing LH output and Total T numbers while pushing up your SHBG decreasing your TT to FT ratio as well.

Finasteride, Dutasteride and 5AR blockers reduce total testosterone overtime in healthy young adults.

Trust me, I went from 800 to 350 after 12 months on it.

Have you thought about adding Tongkat Ali and/or Boron supplementation to decrease SHBG and estrogen and increase TT/FT? I'm currently testing Tongkat, will do blood work at the end of the month. In theory it could reduce unwanted effects created by fina/duta.

[RTC]

17 minutes ago, hairywannabe said:

Have you thought about adding Tongkat Ali and/or Boron supplementation to decrease SHBG and estrogen and increase TT/FT? I'm currently testing Tongkat, will do blood work at the end of the month. In theory it could reduce unwanted effects created by fina/duta.

Looking into tongkat

[GoliGoliGoli]

7 hours ago, mustang said:

This is incorrect. Blocking 5AR decreases Total and Free Testosterone. It does not increase it, there are several studies published on the matter, you can find them online.

You can have a short lived spike in Free T when starting medication but it will eventually get aromatized into E2 consequently reducing LH output and Total T numbers while pushing up your SHBG decreasing your TT to FT ratio as well.

Finasteride, Dutasteride and 5AR blockers reduce total testosterone overtime in healthy young adults.

Trust me, I went from 800 to 350 after 12 months on it.

Thinking about this more, this is a total game changer if true. Most resources I find on Google say Fin raises T by preventing conversion to DHT. Can you share the studies you mentioned? 

800 to 350 in 12 months is a MASSIVE change. It's one thing to be lowering DHT to prevent hair loss, but if you're lowering T as well I can't imagine why anyone would trade hair for T. 

Would love to see the studies. 

[SoSoz]

I want to buy Dr Mwambas https://www.fueclinic.com/services/treatments/topical-dutasteride-0-1/ , however it doesn't state how many times I should use etc. I've never tried finasteride/dut before. I want to use duta because you don't have to apply it everyday, but I am scared to take such strong medication - how do I know if it's even safe for me? Should I consult this with a doctor or something?

[Follicle1984]

Hi Mustang.

New to the forum. Hello everyone.

I've been reading your topical dutasteride threads for a little while Mustang, and find them really interesting and inspiring. Thank you for sharing your experiences.

I tried finasteride, topically and orally, and like you, experienced side effects (libido, ED, sensitive nips). Quickly with 1mg orally. More slowly topically with lower doses, and I admit I probably invalidated my experiment as I took some occasional oral doses during this time also. I do wonder if I replicated the Mazarella 0.005% BD if it may be low enough to avoid most sides. I also wonder if many could avoid at least some sides by oestrogen control.

The topical dusteride seems interesting. It seems to me, as you say, to get the holy grail of good effect with minimal sides, it's all about getting the dose and frequency JUST right. What I find fascinating are the stories/studies of good results from dut mesotherapy at doses of 0.01% every month or even every 3 months. When you compare this to 0.5mg orally every day, it is just incredible the difference in dose. Literally 15-45mg orally monthly vs 0.1mg intradermally every 1 to 3 months. 150-450x lower dose.

My theory links with what your surgeon mentioned:

If you apply dutasteride topically or intradermally it will infiltrate the scalp with high efficiency and will encounter 5AR. You are giving the dutateride molecules an advantage of being in the right location to bind to 5AR in the scalp quickly before it floats off elsewhere in the blood and may bind to 5AR elsewhere. In the scalp, it binds with high affinity to 5AR (and will knock out more type 2 5AR than finasteride) and will bind irrevesibly. Theoretically one dose may be enough to knock out most of the 5AR activity in the scalp. Given the replenishment halflife if 5AR is slow (~30 days), you may be able to signicantly reduce 5AR activity for at least a week or two with that one dose. Therefore weekly, or even every other week dosing may be enough to keep 5AR, specifically type-2 5AR activity significantly reduced. 

I imagine it's more effective topically than fin as it binds to almost 90-100% of type 2 5AR (at a certain dose) compared to proportionally less for fin (at best 60-70% scalp type 2 5AR). Maybe that's why you can get away with reduced frequency of dosing.

The lack of systemic side effects is the interesting part. Is it the higher molecular weight. Is lipophilicity keeping dut located in the scalp fat longer. Is it the delivery system used that keeps it from becoming systemic and located in the scalp. Is avoidance of first pass through the liver and associated lack of metabolites with topical dut an important factor. Or of course, is it just the overall lower dose load per week/month (I imagine some is going systemic regardless but if you only dose every 2 weeks or so it just won't add up like a higher dose/frequency regime). I don't think we really know. There are not enough studies.

Unfortunately, you do hear of people getting sides with topical dut, but I wonder if many haven't dialed in the dose and frequency. As I say, there seem to be some mesotherapy clinics giving just 0.1mg dut every month or 3 months.

I live in the UK, I'm a little worried about the legality of importing topical dut from the FUE clinic unless it comes with a legimiate prescription from a legitimate prescriber in the clinic. I could get it from a clinic in the UK but I'm told its not liposomal. I presume its more ethanol or PG based. From your experience Mustang, do you think that would be a problem and an ethanol or typical PG based solution of topical dut would be more likely to go systemic? I will try and find the base of the solution. Or do you think I could try it at a low dose of 0.1 to 1mg of this solution every couple of weeks without too much risk of systemic sides?

I know the half life of dut is 4-5 weeks. I'm a little worried about what happens if it goes wrong and I get sides. In your experience when you took too high of a dose, did it take a long time for the sides to subside? Sides from fin took almost 4-6 weeks to resolve for me.

I thank you in advance for your reply.

Cheers.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Follicle1984

[BurnieBurns]

I think the bottom line is Dutasteride goes less systemic than finasteride but not zero systemic. Topicals have become such a cash grab in my opinion focused on marketing to those scared of side effects than those legitimately with side effects. If the latter market was bigger you'd see more companies invested in carriers designed to reduce systemic absorption like Xyon. It'll be exciting to see results with their topical dutasteride in due course.

@Follicle1984 with FUE clinic you are technically getting it from a doctor who's assessed your case via a photo.

Edited August 20, 2022 by BurnieBurns

[RTC]

9 hours ago, Follicle1984 said:

 

I live in the UK, I'm a little worried about the legality of importing topical dut from the FUE clinic unless it comes with a legimiate prescription from a legitimate prescriber in the clinic. I 

The police are not going to raid your house over dutasteride mate

Edited August 20, 2022 by RTC

[Follicle1984]

Thank you both for your replies.

I agree that there are likely companies just trying to make money out of the idea of a topical and jumping on the side effect band wagon for marketing purposes. I often think this when I see topical with high doses which may well lead to similar effects to oral doses. Is it true Xyon dose their topical at 25mg? Would make me a little  nervous even with a topical delivery solution if this is true. Any experiences from anyone?

Does anyone have any thoughts on if the common currently available vehicles we use for topical dutasteride have major effects on systemic absorption of the drug? Ie liposomal vs ethanol or PG based? Or is the consensus its all about dose and frequency?

Also, what are peoples thoughts or experiences on how long dutasteride sides would normally take to reverse should someone encounter them? Aware there half life is 4-5 weeks, is it usually a lot longer than waiting for fins sides to subside?

Mustang...do you still use topical dut at 0.1% every 2 weeks? I believe I read that was your dosing?

Thanks all  

 

 

[RTC]

WHy not try a lower dose to begin with?

I used 0.01% to start with (with microneedling), now I use 0.05% (without microneedling even though Mwamba says to microneedle). Both once a week dosing, 2ml. No issues so far.

Edited August 22, 2022 by RTC

[mustang]

2 hours ago, RTC said:

WHy not try a lower dose to begin with?

I used 0.01% to start with (with microneedling), now I use 0.05% (without microneedling even though Mwamba says to microneedle). Both once a week dosing, 2ml. No issues so far.

Good approach

[Follicle1984]

Sounds sensible I agree. I would definitely start low and only once every 2 weeks if I were to go that route...which I may do. 

Thank you both.

[Follicle1984]

Anyone aware of the approximate price of Dr Mwambas topical dutasteride 0.1%?

Does it come with a prescription in the package? Just thinking if it were stopped by customs surely would be helpful if that was inside.

Thanks

[sunsurfhair]

On 8/19/2022 at 1:31 PM, GoliGoliGoli said:

Thinking about this more, this is a total game changer if true. Most resources I find on Google say Fin raises T by preventing conversion to DHT. Can you share the studies you mentioned? 

800 to 350 in 12 months is a MASSIVE change. It's one thing to be lowering DHT to prevent hair loss, but if you're lowering T as well I can't imagine why anyone would trade hair for T. 

Would love to see the studies. 

Same. I’m on TRT now thanks to oral fin. Destroyed me. Prior had TT around 850 and also dropped me down to 300s morning reading despite a long time stopping the med. people just don’t get how horrible a drug oral fin is. FYI I’m super healthy workout 4-5 x a wk w cardio and medium to heavy lifting. Eat organic clean and keep low stress. Still couldn’t restore my T levels naturally despite all that after taking oral fin. 

[mustang]

1 hour ago, sunsurfhair said:

Same. I’m on TRT now thanks to oral fin. Destroyed me. Prior had TT around 850 and also dropped me down to 300s morning reading despite a long time stopping the med. people just don’t get how horrible a drug oral fin is. FYI I’m super healthy workout 4-5 x a wk w cardio and medium to heavy lifting. Eat organic clean and keep low stress. Still couldn’t restore my T levels naturally despite all that after taking oral fin. 

Exactly the same here. Had 800 plus levels and got down to 350 despite stopping for 2 years.

I also workout 5-6 times a week and eat well. I manage to get it up to 550 at one point being super strict but free T was still in the tank

On TRT for life now., 75mg a week and 750 HCG.