Hasson and Wong really say this?

[TheEmperor]

Google "stick and place hair transplant" and you can read about the benefits of this technique. THe doctors who use this method explain that with lateral slit, the incisions start to close up over time and this makes it more difficult for the techs to insert the grafts, which causes damage and reduced growth.

 

I am almost positive this explains why the 1's in my hairline had poor growth (either didn't grow, or grew in with a finer caliber), yet the jaggie hairs all grew with their original caliber. Also the larger grafts (behind) seemed to grow well, likely because they were physically more stout/larger, and the slits themselves were larger and more easily opened by the techs.

 

When I consider the poor yield I got in the most important part of the HT (hairline), I really wish I had chosen a doc without an assembly line approach. Two procedures of 3K grafts would have been better than 4500 + 2000 where there were yield problems with the many singles. I guess the take away is that session size is NOT the most important thing; buyer beware.

 

The guys who get homeruns, either their bodies do not rapidly close the incisions (thus no damage when inserting grafts) or perhaps the grafts are larger overall and require larger incisions. This needs more investigation. Looking at it, I can see no reason why the surgeon shouldn't use stick and place to ensure best yield (even if it is only a % of his patients who will benefit from it), besides the fact that he can't be in two places at once, can't operate on two patients at once. So yeah, it will cut into his profits.

Edited April 18, 2011 by TheEmperor

[Michael5577]

I'm unhappy with the locking of negative threads (for example, the Feller thread) and deletion of posts (I didn't read the ones that were deleted in this thread). I think it takes away from the credibility of this forum when it happens. I don't see why any thread has to be locked. Let people speak as long as they want to. It raises questions in my mind as to the independence of this forum.

[HARIRI]

Seems that H&W has diplomatic immunity in this forum ;-)

[bonkerstonker]

Most of the posts that were removed were not in relation to hasson and wong or this thread they were just mainly school kid insults towards lorenzo, i seen them before they were removed.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Micheal,

 

We pride ourselves in allowing open discussions while keeping them balanced and fair. While we encourage members to share their genuine opinions and experiences, there is no room on this forum for personal insults and mudslinging which were the only posts I removed from this topic.

 

Topics are seldom locked but when they are, they are for a reason. These reasons vary but are provided at the bottom of each topic. There's no reason for me to get into this here.

 

That said, I expect this thread to stay on topic which is in regards to Unhappy's results. We will not be discussing TheEmperor's results or any others on this topic. Those who want to discuss their own results can create their own topics.

 

Thanks,

 

Bill

[Bill - Seemiller]

Hariri,

 

Oh really? Then why have I allowed this topic of discussion to continue?

 

Either back up your claim with proof, recant, or be suspended. Frankly I'm tired of people making unsubstantiated claims, especially against the very community that allows them to voice their concerns in the first place.

 

Bill

[Bill - Seemiller]

Tsakalos,

 

I've removed your posts again because all you're intending to do is stir trouble. I've already discussed lorenzo's aggressive behavior with him privately. He doesn't need a reprimand from you nor am I willing to tolerate you telling me how I should run this community.

 

For your information, the posts of Lorenzo's I was referring to are the ones in response to your insults.

 

Since you can't post without senseless insults and criticism, I expect you to stay off this topic.

 

Bill

[EpilepticSceptic]

Thought I'd stay out of this one until we saw some more objective photos of NotHappy's results; but some of the mudslinging and hysteria directed towards H & W's reputation just hit a nerve with me.

 

Emperor's comments are predictable, so I won't spend any time debating with him. He has ALOT of theories concerning how he would have received better results at other clinics, or even with Dr. H instead of Wong. At the end of the day they are just that, theories, because he hasn't had any work done elsewhere so how could he know if what he is saying is true ? The bottom line is that if you have had success with THOUSANDS of patients over a period of many years then why should a clinic question its' methodology ?

 

Concerning NotHappy's situation, I think most people here are missing the giant elephant in the room. And that is this: WHY is it that he waited until 2 years post-HT to come on here with guns blazing straight out of the gate ?

 

Doesn't that strike any of you as odd ? So you invest $14K in a HT to get shoddy work repaired, and then it takes 2 full years to realize that you had 30% growth, contact the clinic to express concerns, and when you feel like they won't recognize what you see as a failure you decide then to go on a rampage against that clinic ? And in the process you remove photos from your blog that portray a MUCH different perspective of the outcome of your HT (taken 12 months previous), and your excuse for that is that you were attempting to state you had toppik on (which looks suspect IMO) and because you were on an Iphone you "accidentally" removed them ?? IMO the odds that he accidentally removed those pics are probably about 1 out of 500; anybody with half a brain can see that he most likely intentionally removed them because they did not support his agenda.

 

Folks, I am not trying to be accusatory here but I AM trying to simply be objective; NotHappy has told other lies as well (like that ALL 2695 grafts were in the front third ONLY), so why should any of us believe that he would tell the truth about the supposed toppik photos ?? IMO none of us here should form an opinion one way or the other until NotHappy visits H & W and we can (hopefully) see some truly objective photos of his condition.

 

Again, why would he (or anybody else for that matter) wait a full 2 years to express discontent with his HT ? Most of us who have gone thru with this will recognize failure WAY before the 2 year mark. I know if my results looked like his 2 year pics at 8-12 months then I would have expressed my concerns at that time.

 

Something just doesn't add up here. The fact that, even after he attacked the clinic very publicly, they are willing to fly him up there to get to the bottom of this I think says alot about how much they care about their patients and reputation.

Edited April 19, 2011 by EpilepticSceptic

[corvettester]

Bill is right for removing all the trash-talking posts...

 

This has got to be the worst thread that I've ever come across on HTN. I mean, where is it even going at this point?

 

It's comprised of all the most deprived elements:

 

1. Mudslinging

2. Lies

3. Phony / Questionable Accounts

4. Shills

5. Fanaticism (both sides)

 

...just to mention a few...

 

 

Ugh... enough already!

 

 

 

Corvettester

[Jotronic]

With regards to NotHappy, yes he is coming to Vancouver as we do wish to see his results in person. Then and only then can any decisions be made but in the meantime I'd appreciate if any and all comments regarding his case were postponed as it only serves to fuel speculation one way or the other. Bottom line, at this point, it appears there was a bit of miscommunication thus far so we wish to rectify that and set the record straight.

 

Regarding TheEmperor however, it goes without saying that he has lots of theories for sure. One thing is certain, he has made it clear on another forum that he is going to continue to malign Dr. Wong's good name regardless of any responsibility he has to back up his claims with simple photos. Once he does then I'll do the same as I have photos from his visit when we performed a no charge hairline procedure to address areas that he was concerned with so I'm happy to share those when he's ready. In fact, I'm tempted to do it regardless to deal with this once and for all.

 

Regarding the stick and place procedure that he feels would have allowed for "better growth". What he doesn't understand is that with stick and place there is no customization of recipient size thus reducing the amount of control over angle and direction not to mention depth. With a "one size fits all" approach stick and place tends to leave the option open for more pit-scarring and compression of grafts. Compression of grafts is caused when an incision is smaller than the graft being placed into it thus with the increased pressures on the graft there can be less blood flow to the graft, especially when hundreds of grafts nearby compound the issue. Not to mention few clinics actually perform stick and place so I have no idea why he feels that this would be of benefit. Shapiro, Rahal, Feller, Alexander, Gable, Lindsey and others all use lateral slit or a combination of lateral slit and sagittal slit but as far as I know none use stick and place.

[HARIRI]

Ok Ok Bill. Sorry. I was just jokin. It was just a sense of humor to bring up the mood after this battlefield here haha. Chill buddy. Thats my last post in the thread.

Edited April 19, 2011 by HARIRI

[Bill - Seemiller]

Joe and theEmperor,

 

I do not want this topic to turn into a debate about theEmperor's results. Thus, I've moved theEmperor's last reply to a new topic at http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/160475-discussion-about-theemperors-results-1-a.html. Please continue your discussion of these results here and not on a topic dedicated to NotHappy.

 

Thanks,

 

Bill

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Reading some of the posts in this thread makes me realize that it’s time for hair transplant doctors to re-establish and re-educate the public as to some of the inviolate limitations of hair transplant surgery and the results that can be expected.

 

Perhaps through years of presenting consistent and impressive pre/post op photos online the public has developed the false impression that all patients will have “wow” results and be “satisfied”. While the percentage of such patients has certainly jumped by an order of magnitude since the 1980s, modern hair transplantation is still very much an art centrally dependent on each patient’s own physiology.

 

Yes, the skill level and experience of the clinic are also key, but can anyone really question the established abilities of the Hasson & Wong clinic? Doubtful, especially since many of the top doctors utilize a variant of Hasson and Wong’s techniques in their own successful clinics- generously shared by these two top doctors. I know that I do, and I take the opportunity to thank them each time I speak with them.

 

So what happened here? What is so different about this case that it should create a thread that to date has resulted in over 5,000 views? The answer is…nothing. There is absolutely nothing special about this case. I’ve reviewed the posted information from both the patient and Dr. Hasson and can conclude the following short facts as an established and experienced HT surgeon:

 

1. I would have done the same thing

2. The results would have been the same

3. Dr. Hasson did not do anything wrong

 

There is quite of bit of speculation by the lay posters of this thread as to “what went wrong” and how it could have been done better. Of course anything written by Dr. Hasson will just be labeled “defensive” or “CYA” posting by the harshest critics. So I thought it prudent to join the conversation and enlist the input of a few other highly reputable physicians to make one thing in particular very clear to ANYONE and EVERYONE considering a hair transplant: RESULTS MAY VARY. This goes DOUBLE when surgery is to be performed on a patient who already had prior procedures. Also that this variation can range from undetectable results to an almost miraculous transformation.

 

Thankfully, most times the results are fairly predictable, but there will always be that small percentage who simply don’t grow well or simply don’t grow to their own satisfaction. This is an inviolate reality of hair transplantation and no clinic can claim they are the exception to it. Not I, or Dr. Hasson, or Dr. Alexander, or Dr. Konior, or Dr. Gabel, or Dr. Lindsey, or any other doctor in the spectrum of hair transplant surgery. We are all in the same boat and you as potential patients (and past patients) need to be aware of this.

 

So in an effort to highlight this reality I’ve asked each doctor mentioned in the preceding paragraph to affirm and re-affirm that hair transplants in their own clinics are limited by patient physiology, prior scarring, other variables; and that even after their very best efforts they still experience patients as deeply disappointed and upset as Nothappy. My clinic included.

 

There has been a reason the hair transplant field has become mega-successful over the past 15 years, but the reality and limitations placed on the surgeons by each patient’s own physiology cannot and should not ever be forgotten when judging results. I understand that a single doctor making this statement on the thread of his disappointed patient may be characterized as a “cop out”, but I and the following doctors are here to tell you that it is a truth that affects all doctors and their patients, not just Dr. Hasson’s and something that is each patient’s obligation to understand and accept prior to seeking an HT:

 

Dr. Alan Feller

Dr. Scott Alexander

Dr. Ray Konior

Dr. William Lindsey

Dr. Steven Gabel

 

I will be contacting other top doctors and adding their names to this list. I think in short order you will find this list to become quite extensive. Many will also be adding their own posts to this thread to affirm the message we doctors are trying to bring to the public.

 

Finally, I want to state that Dr. Hasson did not ask me to make this post. I called and asked him for his blessing to post in an effort to turn this thread into something productive and educational that could benefit both patients and doctors alike.

 

Not Happy, you are welcome to contact me or any of the listed physicians anytime if you would like to speak about your situation if an outside opinion and perspective will give you comfort.

 

My thanks for you time,

 

Dr. Alan Feller

Edited April 20, 2011 by Dr. Alan Feller

[Tsakalos]

while i was reading the post i saw that dr. Feller was spelling the name as Hassan. i said ok typo, then again. Ok typo again. Then again Hassan. 3rd typo ? ok i accept that too. But more Hassan, 7 times Dr. Feller misspelled the name as Hassan and only 1 time he wrote it correct.

 

And i am wondering . When someone makes 7 times the same mistake in such an easy name that he happens to know for so many years, how many mistakes he will do in the surgery room ??

 

Sorry Dr. Feller but this is what i can think right now,. Unless the name is really Hassan and its misspelled on their website...

Edited April 19, 2011 by Tsakalos

[Bill - Seemiller]

Tsakalos,

 

I'm going to leave your last post on this topic because it just shows how ridiculous you've become. But since you obviously have nothing constructive to offer this community and have become nothing more than a poison in an otherwise healthy well, I think it's time to say goodbye and move on.

 

It's a shame because I've gotten a chance to know you offline a bit and feel that overall, you're a good guy. But it's obvious that you've let your interpretation of your own personal experience harden you against hair restoration in general and this community.

 

I wish you all the best in moving on with your life in a healthy and constructive way.

 

Bill

[haircut]

Dr. Feller,

 

Very well said! My favorite part is "Results may vary." That is absolutely the truth. The above should be required reading for anyone considering HT.

[Mike73]

Does anyone know if there has even been extensive enough surveys to get a *general* idea how happy people are on average with HT surgeries?

 

Is it something like 70% happy, 15% somewhat satisfied, 15% unhappy? What's your gut feeling? I'd be curious to know.

 

Obviously, it's not possible to achieve 100% happy customers. So, if that's something that everyone is willing to admit simply because it's a fact, I don't see anything wrong if someone says they're unhappy with the results. Perhaps the problem here is that people expect a 'miracle' and they were never given an estimate of what the likelihood of less than optimal results are - generating unflattering comments.

[hairthere]

Good post and a very good idea to get other surgeons on board Dr. Feller. I think it will be sobering for a lot of HT patients, and prospective patients, to read.

[Dr. Raymond Konior]

I emphatically echo the words of Dr. Feller. The fact of the matter is that we are dealing with a surgical procedure - and with it all of the risks that are associated with surgery. Many assume hair restoration to be such a straight forward procedure that little else other than density and undetectability are taken into serious consideration prior to entering the operating room. However, all surgical procedures involve risks, and those risks need to be carefully considered by each and every patient who decides to undergo the scalpel. Unfortunately, infection, bleeding, nerve damage, scarring, cyst formation, and low graft yield are just a few of the realities of what may transpire following surgical intervention. Dr. Feller’s reference to patient physiology is extremely important. This vital component of the overall surgical process must be clearly appreciated by all potential patients since it is this variable that can compromise even the most perfectly implemented procedure.

[Dr. William Lindsey]

Dr. Konior states my thoughts much more eloquently than I can.

 

If patient physiology and uniqueness weren't part of the equation, all medical interventions would likely be successful.

 

Whether its hair, facelifts, or cancer treatments, each patient brings to the table a specific physiologic matrix that certainly influences all medical and surgical interventions. And that assumes that everyone follows the instructions to the letter, which may or may not occur.

 

I believe that as further knowledge of the genetic code, and determination of multifactoral genetic influence is figured out, over the next decade or 2, that much of the "guess work" of medicine will be eliminated, and that includes figuring out who'll do well with specific treatments.

 

For the present, I believe most doctors really try to do the best for their patients, whether its hair, or cardiac disease. Unfortunately there are no guarantees of results.

 

At our office, I tell patients right up front at our consultation that my only guarantee is that we'll all be sober, and we'll do our best job to take care of and implant hair with as little trauma as possible. But I can't MAKE them grow. Fortunately, most grow, in most patients.

 

Every person I have operated on for hair has heard that little paragraph almost verbatum. Some may not remember hearing it, but I say it every single time.

 

And H and W is a premier operation. The fact that they may occasionally have less growth than desired is unfortunately just part of medicine and indeed life.

 

Dr. Lindsey McLean VA

[TC17]

Is there simply no way of ascertaining whether a person's physiology will be suitable for surgery prior to the patient investing thousands of dollars, months/years of his time, physical discomfort, and emotional investment?

 

Regardless, if a patient's physiology does not lend itself to a successful surgery, who should bear the financial burden of the failed procedure?

[Dr. Alan Feller]

TC17,

 

There is no sure fire way to ascertain whether a patient has the physiology for a HT. However, there are certain clues and hints available to the experienced doctor. For example, did the patient have scalp surgery or trauma in the past? Are there pre-existing medical conditions (that I won't go into here)? And so on. That's why a pre-op consultation is so important. Unfortunately, there is no "test" available to see how well a patient will take to an HT without actually doing one.

 

 

Just as the medical liability and responsibility are completely on the doctor, the financial risk is completely on the patient. It's a mutual partnership that both patient and doctor enter into prior to agreeing and executing a surgery. As long as the physician has performed the procedure within the generally accepted parameters (as they exist today obviously, not as they existed 15 years ago) he has done his job and fulfilled his end of the bargain. Thereafter it's solely up to each patients individual body. Indeed this is the very subject of this entire thread.

 

With that said, in our clinic if I see a result that seems considerably lower than I would have expected, I will usually offer a second procedure at reduced cost or even sometimes for free; but not every time and not with every patient. Just about every other doctor I know in the HT field does the same to one extent or another. We all want our patients to looks as great as possible.

 

Dr. Feller

[lorenzo]

This indeed has become an interesting topic. What posters fail to point out is that what is considered a postive outcome to the majority may not be to the patient. It is very hard for a doctor to judge a person state of mind before surgery. I have met many patients the majority are great sane people. In any industry or business you are dealing with a small few that have other underlying mental issues as well. Some people will never be happy regardless of the outcome in anything. It doesnt matter how many times you explain the reality of hair transplant and what kind of outcome is to be expected they are not happy once its said and done. One of the best transplants that I have ever seen the patient was not happy. I was sitting in the waiting room with an Italian patient and this gentlemen walked in. We both looked at him and though what is he doing here he has alot of hair. We were both shocked to find out that he has already recieved a surgery and this was one of the top wow results I have ever seen in person. He would have put Futzy or Bobman to shame. Well this gentleman was not happy after I complimented him on his surgery. He didnt take meds and 1 year after the procedure his crown has lost a bit of density. Although it wasnt bad at all and many of us would be happy with that kind of crown it was a bit thinner than his hairline. He came in not only to complain and demand his money back. I asked him if he minded if I saw his before pictures he said sure. Looking at his before pictures and immediate post op he only recieved grafts in the first 2/3 of his head. The crown was left alone since there was alot of hair there already. How could this patient not realize that no grafts were never put in his crown? The area was not shaved in the crown.

My point is that in most cases where the person is not happy the complaint is not legit. What is a doctor suppose to do in this situation? Make the patient happy? How when he did exactly what he promised and the result was amazing.

 

Just my two bits.

[Michael5577]

Dr. Hasson is one of the top doctors in the industry and is my second choice after Dr. Rahal. I'm confident that if Dr. Hasson can't produce a good result, the problem inevitably resides with the patient.

 

I'm very grateful that Dr. Rahal produced the result that I have. I was a NW6 and got two procedures for slightly over 5000 grafts. The change in my appearance is pretty dramatic (I simply look ten years younger), even with my very fine hair and low elasticity. The only thing I can say is that by picking somebody of Dr. Rahal's, Dr. Feller's, Dr. Hasson's calibre, one increases the odds of success.

Edited April 20, 2011 by Michael5577

[bonkerstonker]

Well said Dr feller.

 

Also can i divert slightly to say Tsakalos should do stand up comedy, some of the things he says should be in a joke book! Bill can we keep him he hasn't got a clue what he's saying bless him ha ha!