11 months. 2100. Underwhelmed.

[El Nino]

Hi aaron,

 

I understand why you're not happy, good luck with your next step.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Aaron,

 

Thanks for sharing your results with us. You've already been given some excellent feedback, but allow me to reiterate some important points.

 

1) In general, 2100 grafts spread out over a larger balding area isn't going to create significant density. The larger the area to cover, the more density is sacrificed.

 

2) The number of hairs you received (not just grafts) will impact the illusion of density.

 

3) Hair characteristics and placement also play a major role in the illusion of density. Thus another patient with thicker hair caliber may achieve a more dense look than you since your hair appears a little thinner (as far as I can tell from the photos).

 

4) Though your hair doesn't look real dense, it looks natural and a second procedure can significantly improve the illusion of density.

 

Your hair looks good grown out and there's definitely an improvement. It appears that you've got the most you can from 2100 grafts. You may end up considering a second procedure to add density.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[aaron1234]

Thanks skunky, hairthere, Ron, El Nino, and Bill once again for the encouragement. I really appreciate it.

 

Money was not an issue in regards to amount of grafts I had placed my doctor. He said it would be no more than $6,000 and that he'd get as much out of my donor as possible. Now if I went to a doctor charging $10,000, then yes, money would have been an issue.

 

Initially my doctor proposed 1,000 grafts. I mentioned that to the forums here and they told me that that would not be nearly enough. Being very concerned, I called the clinic the day before the surgery and was told by the secretary that 1,000 grafts would lead to about 1,500-2,000 follicular units. I was a bit confused about that because I always thought follicular units and grafts were the same thing. But I went through with it.

 

My expectations for this surgery was not to achieve adolescent density but have a soft mature hairline to frame the face and give me some coverage. I fully didn't expect to see my scalp through the transplanted hair, that was the whole point of getting the transplanted hair in the first place.

 

Fin results-

The first picture taken before I started Fin is a bit blurry. And I was also shaving my head at the time. But the outline is definitely heading to NW6. I had many fine, miniaturizing hairs in the middle region that you might not be able to see that were strengthened on Fin. The bald spot on my crown also shrunk. I believe that Fin has been pretty steady for me thus far. Here's hoping that it continues??¦ or else I'm screwed.

 

I am certainly planning on having another HT in future. As PGP said, I have basically no choice but to go through another one. But unfortunately, it will probably be a couple years before I have the money I need saved up for another procedure. Especially one with a top tier doc.

[thanatopsis_awry]

Wait...now I'm a little confused haha....your doctor proposed 1k grafts?!? When you took it upon yourself to inquire into getting more...did you? As in "2100 grafts"? I think I'm confused by the semantics here, or missed something.

 

Anyways...IMO...your result looks about right on, though I don't think the "gameplan" was terribly optimal for you; unfortunately, it's left you with a genuine need for more, and that's something I see all too often. This isn't an issue of Hair Greed.

 

You're in good shape to get where you want to be with your next procedure, though -- just go with a top tier doc, like you say, and get the right # of grafts. Also, you look great w/ the concealer, so that should help bridge the time gap with your next op!

[aaron1234]

Thana,

 

You didn't miss anything. That's why your confused... if you catch my drift.

 

- My in-person appointment, the doctor proposed around 1,000 grafts.

- I mentioned that to the forum and was told by everyone that 1,000 grafts were not enough.

- I call the clinic the day before my surgery. The office manager/secretary told me over the phone, that 1,000 grafts would lead to 1,500-2,000 follicular units and the doctor would maximize my donor.

- I was confused because I always thought grafts and FU's were the same thing. But I went for it anyways because I trusted them over me. After all, they were the pros, right?

[thanatopsis_awry]

This raises a lot of questions to me; questions which, at the very least, I think your doctor should be accountable to you for, and give answers to:

 

How a 1k graft target was derived for you, and how it's justified, leading to:

 

The response to your concern over the session size. "100 grafts is the same as 1,500 to 2,000 follicular units" seems almost like a non-sequitur response, and I'm not grasping how this was supposed to help you understand better, let alone satisfy your actual concern over getting enough grafts, which you clearly still did not. It's left me puzzled, it clearly left you puzzled, and it seem to this day you are *still* puzzled about that, and:

 

This "maximizing your donor" -- what does that even mean....did they tell you that they were essentially going to get as many grafts as safely possible for you? That's how I'd interpret it. If so, I find it extremely hard to believe 1k -- or is it 2k lol... -- was the best that could be done.

 

To be frank, this situation is very irksome and troubling to me. At the end of the day our best weapon is our own eyes and doing our own research until we are 100% confident; but this doesn't mean the *professionals* and *doctors* we are entrusting ourselves to should not be held to the highest of standards in helping to educate us, as well, while also working towards delivering the results we go in expecting.

[Ron J]

Hey Aaron,

 

it's a bit alarming that any clinic would propose 1,900 grafts for that area ESPECIALLY if you have fine hair, let alone 1K (?); & the statement that 'x' amount would lead to 'y' amount is also bewildering. Unless they were reff. to hairs & not grafts (?). Overall, not a good situation.

 

PS did the dr. know that $6K was your cieling prior to giving you a suggested graft #?

[lost my swagger]

Originally posted by aaron1234:

Thana,

 

You didn't miss anything. That's why your confused... if you catch my drift.

 

- My in-person appointment, the doctor proposed around 1,000 grafts.

- I mentioned that to the forum and was told by everyone that 1,000 grafts were not enough.

- I call the clinic the day before my surgery. The office manager/secretary told me over the phone, that 1,000 grafts would lead to 1,500-2,000 follicular units and the doctor would maximize my donor.

- I was confused because I always thought grafts and FU's were the same thing. But I went for it anyways because I trusted them over me. After all, they were the pros, right?

 

RonJ-- here is your quote from above to me----"There are plenty of leeches in the ht world trying to feed off of people's desperation (it doesn't take a genious to figure this out) but this forum is not a place filled w/those leeches."-----

 

now id like you to take a look at the above quote by the patient himself, Aaron1234.. as your reading what Aarons experience was with the clinic he chose, understand that Aaron chose a dr who, according to him, WAS recommended by this site.. so while i agree that this site is a GREAT benifit to someone considering transplants. it still obviously helped aaron feel comfortable in his choosing of a Dr. who would put together a flawed gameplan IMHO.. all while forcing Aaron into a commitment that is very long term, very difficult, and very unexpected..

 

you say aaron should have known that future HTs were a possiblity, I SAY HE DID... hell RonJ, even I KNEW FUTURE HTS WERE IN MY FUTURE, i just didnt know it was gonna come 1 year after my first HT, and take place in the EXACT same place my first HT was, due to such a strong lack of density from HT#1..ron have a look at aarons quote:--

 

----"I knew full well that I would likely need more transplants in the future. However, I didn't know that I would have to go over the same transplanted region all over again just to get any kind of density."----

 

---- aaron was mislead by the indusrty IMO, and while in my case you can say "meh, he want to bosley, so it makes sense", the same cannot be said of aaron.... no, he likely did NOT choose H&W or rahal, or feller. but MANY here find their ways to recommended drs outside these 3...

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

LMS, you yourself COULD remedy your situation & go to an elite dr as many others have done in your situation. You act as though NOONE has good options. But, this simply is not true.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

RonJ, will be honest, your above quote is an example of one that scares me about your posting style... you sometimes hand out opinions as if you are 100% certain it will happen(i do the same thing except im usually on the other end of the spectum)...

 

you do not know that my situation could be remedied, you simply cannot know that if i choose H&W i will get what i want, short term OR long term.. you cannot be certain of the success of my HT, my yield, and my appearance after its grown out... you do not seem to always factor EVERYTHING.. while you like to state that i have a very 'general view of HTs. i believe much of the same could be said for you. i still have native hair left to lose. according to you, i should just go fill in my thin front third and i will be happy and look better, maybe so ron, but FOR HOW LONG?? until i lose the rest of my top and crown?? and now ive got no laxity and not enough donor for adequate coverage?? my situation is more complex then just going to a top doc and making my hairline thick enough to put away the concealer for now... for guys like Aaron and me these are life changing decisions we must make, all because we made ONE life changing decision under the impression we would have more than we ACTUALLY got..

 

RonJ-- just the other day i read a post from you that scared the hell out of me.... a guy was worried about his yield and how not all his grafts were growing.. he was like 7 months out(typically most grafts have ATLEAST begun growing by then, they may not be thick yet but they are certainly GROWING in most cases)... yet even still your "positive" words for him were as follows: 'do not worry, ALL your grafts WILL come in eventually' im paraphrasing but your words WERE indeed that definitive... i understand you were trying to "delicately help with motherly nourisment" but to me this is yet another example of you potentially providing FALSE HOPE in a situation you dont fully understand... you do not know this guys grafts will fill in RON. you cannot know... so while you may be right, and he MAY be a late grower, there is also a very real chance that, so late in the game for him, he may simply be on pace for an UNSUCCESSFUL transplant, and your attempeted "esteem boost" will lead to false hope and greater disappointment... its a fine line you walk sometimes with your pro HT beliefs... i would compare it to that of the fine line i walk with my "not so-pro HT beliefs"...however, i think its obv most posters like seeing "positive" posts like yours. you do indeed nourish my friend, they like that... all the way up until they are in arrons, or judge holdens shoes... then they dont care so much i would bet. now, for them its all about fixing the mess they got themselves into as best they can.

 

and to answer your queston, YES, we can engage in genuine dialogue, we always could have ron

 

so long as the OP does not object... perhaps you and i need to personally open up a public thread specifically for us... that way anytime we wanna get something off our chest we can do so without making all the threads about you and me

[hdude46]

Youn guy's bickering back and forth is getting old, and yes, it is bickering and not a discussion. We all know you were the victim of a bad transplant lms, and we all know Ron J can sometimes trumpet HT's as the ultimate answer when they indeed may not be, but both of you need to stop this because it seems like on every thread where one of you says something, so does the other and it turns into an arguement.

 

LMS, you say aaron was forced into a commitment that is very long term ect...THEN THE VERY NEXT SENTENCE post a sentence paraphrasing aaron about him knowing what he was in for! One thing I can agree on is that every doc on this site isn't world class. IMO that is a disticntion held by maybe 3-4 docs here. This is why people say research research research. See patients in person, look at EVERY web result you can find, ect...It wasn't hard for me to find out some of these coalition docs wouldnt meet my standards and only a few would.

 

I'm just sick of this victim mentality. Yes, you made a bad decsion, yes you want to stop others from the same, but lurking around a ht forum looking for every opportunity to say i told you so is counter productive. At this point we know where you both stand, so please dont bother to respond trying to further explain yourself, b/c I'm not listening.

[lost my swagger]

LMS, you say aaron was forced into a commitment that is very long term ect...THEN THE VERY NEXT SENTENCE post a sentence paraphrasing aaron about him knowing what he was in for! One

 

disagree. perhaps i should have clarified better on this point. aaron knew, just as i did. that future procedures were likely. what i did not, and im guessing aaron did not know is that that these future procedures, would come SO SOON AFTER, and WOULD BE IN THE EXACT SAME SPOT AS OUR PREVIOUS WORK, due to the strong lack of density we recieved, all while being promised something else. we were thinking future procedures whould be used to address NEW areas, and future balding...im hoping your smart enough to see the difference here hdude..

 

your right hdude we can agree that the majority of drs are not world class..... however you strike me as a very close minded person, you seem to know nothing of a situation like aarons... im glad for you....its foolish posts like yours that were the very reason i never posted about my personal experience until recently.. i knew that posters who didnt know me at all, would think im a victim out for pity...

 

im also glad you have decided not to listen anymore. your just to wise anyway .. cause im tired of hearing you bounce around like you have all the answers to a successful experience... "research, see patient in person".. all GREAT recycled advice. are you so sure aaron did not folow your "iron clad" guide to HT success?? meh, even if he did he still is not as smart as you were about it, right??

[hairthere]

aaron, i agree with thana, being told initially you would need 1k grafts and then being being told "it would lead to 1500-2k) is very troubling and makes little sense. this sounds like an amateur doctor, not a top, coalition doctor. if this is indeed someone recommended on this site i urge you to contact pat and/or Bill.

[vincehair]

I think you just fell for the oldest HT trick in the book. Your doctor gave you a TINY graft count so now your on the hook for Ht #2 Ht #3 and so on. Who in their right mind would think 1000 on your loss would do jack shit? Seriously!?!

 

Who is your doctor?

 

As for the coalition doctors their are 57 on the list. How many do we actualy see consistantly great results from? 15?

[Bill - Seemiller]

Youn guy's bickering back and forth is getting old, and yes, it is bickering and not a discussion. We all know you were the victim of a bad transplant lms, and we all know Ron J can sometimes trumpet HT's as the ultimate answer when they indeed may not be, but both of you need to stop this because it seems like on every thread where one of you says something, so does the other and it turns into an arguement.

 

Swagger and Ron,

 

I agree with hdude that the bickering back and forth is getting old. This thread is about Aaron's hair transplant procedure. Please continue your debate privately and only publicly when relevant.

 

Bill

[Ron J]

I agree. LMS's mind is set, & my words keep getting misconstrued to be some radical on the other end of the spectrum. When in fact, I personally am only a fan of 3 dr.'s in the world, & of those would only consider 1.

 

Aaron,

 

I hope you get your case resolved. IMO if anything this just shows how much individual responsibility is key. I would never settle for that small of a graft count in that size area.

[skunky]

I know alot of people are standing in line to achieve a higher density than what their first ht has given them which doesn't have to be the problem because most of us are aware of this fact before we take the plunge to get a ht.

But there are still some people around who don't know about fora like these and don't really do their research so the only thing these people should get is the right information of the consultant or the doctor himself so they know what to expect.

I was told by my consutant before my first ht that I would only need 1 and that I would get a high dense hairline so it wouldn't get noticed; that's ofcourse something we all want and definitely when I was still attending college. I was still a novice and wasn't informed too well to know what to expect, later on I figured out that 1200 single grafts could never have achieved a dense lower hairline where you wouldn't suspect something's happening right there on my head.

Ofcourse some surgeons like to do or are only able to do the mini session hts ; many small ones make money alot easier than 1 big session.

But in my case these consultant and docs should never have said and promised that I would get a dense hairline , no one would suspect anything; this is just the opposite ; people keep looking at it and wondering if I'm balding or had something done there; made collegehood not a real pleasure ride.

Since I was a student back then I also couldn't get my 2nd ht right away and so now there are 5 years in between .

I think Aaron's results are looking good considering the amount he got , but that's not really the issue here, it's how some clinics try to sell less for more and make you believe in it until you come to the point you have to deal with it and know you were dragged into the train of ungoing hair transplantionadventures.

 

Without a doubt Aaron will look great when he gets his 2nd ht done, but in the meantime he just has to deal with it and do some more RESEARCH. You've got to build up your own knowledge first so it's easier to make the right decision and sort out the real true hair surgeons.

[aaron1234]

what i did not, and im guessing aaron did not know is that that these future procedures, would come SO SOON AFTER, and WOULD BE IN THE EXACT SAME SPOT AS OUR PREVIOUS WORK, due to the strong lack of density we recieved, all while being promised something else. we were thinking future procedures whould be used to address NEW areas, and future balding...i

 

That was basically my impression. That one procedure will cover one region and that other future procedures would cover other regions. I'd still like to address the crown in the future. Again, I believed I had realistic expectations but what I didn't understand was what number of grafts were needed to achieve a certain kind of density. And I saw some pretty amazing before and after photos of patients with about 2000 grafts on this site in the photo section. I'm NOT saying this site misled me. I just didn't understand the other variables at the time; i.e. hair texture, color, shaft thickness, etc.

[Gencheff]

It would have been nice to see Aaron in person to review his concerns. There is no substitute to actually seeing the results face to face.

 

Having said that, I tell all my patients, especially those under 30 years old that density (hairs per cm2) is always an issue especially if your donor hair is thin in caliber, skin tone pale and scalp elasticity snug. Moving the 2100 F.U.T. to zone I into II or frontal third had to take into consideration continued thinning regardless of medical therapy. These grafts were feathered into the lateral humps and mid-vertex as well as reestablishing a hairline. Existing hairs that were there may continue to thin, especially if the ???intermediate hairs??? are prone to the shock/loss of the surgery and that may be the stubble Aaron continues to feel. Again, that was discussed and a second procedure is always discussed with all patients, especially if patients have more original recipient hair to lose.

 

I have seen patients that have been done by the various clinics that have responded to this case and many supplement their look with camouflage products, until more hair is moved into the thinning areas.

 

My concern with Aaron was his age, the quality of his donor hairs, vascularity he displayed during surgery and the fact that he shaved his head. Donor scarring had to be as minimal as possible given his skin elasticity. I feel the F.U.T. moved in that single session is more than justified and density was never going to be that of a 15 year old with out any hair loss. Donor scarring vs. hair density is always going to be a balancing act in a younger balding patient.

 

I caution all future patients especially those under 30 to realize that F.U.T. is a good procedure with limitations based on not just what the patient desires but what his genetics will display. Therefore, planning is always discussed personally by me at great length with my patients and the take home message is conserving donor hair for the future. Results always vary from patient to patient, after all this is a surgical procedure and not a hair system that can give you all the density you want as hair supply is unlimited with a hair system.

 

I also implore all post surgical patient to give their respective surgeon a face to face to assess their concerns.

 

I welcome any comments from other Hair Transplant Network surgeons.

[the B spot]

Dr. Gencheff--are you saying you performed Aaron's surgery?

 

I did not see him mention his doctor on this thread.

 

Thank You,

Jason

[Bill - Seemiller]

Jason,

 

In order to be fair to both Aaron and Dr. Gencheff (who is Aaron's surgeon), I sent an email to Dr. Gencheff asking him to address Aaron's concerns in particular and any of the misunderstandings about the procedure. I've been following Aaron's case for some time on his hair loss weblog and there, he lists his surgeon.

 

Thanks and Best wishes,

 

Bill

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Now I remember you.

I made fun of Packer fans and you got mad, well not mad you took exception.

It clearly once again demonstrates going to an average doc will usually get you average results.

Thank God you didnt go to a total hack.

Like I said some months back Im no fan of Gencheff when you got two terrific docs that blow him out the water on two sides of Wisc.

That being said you at least were not practiced on like I was.

Hey at least you can wear a foam cheesehead until your next surgery.

That seems like a pretty normal occurrence in Wisc.

Seriously though you are fairly easily fixable but I wouldnt go back to the same doc even if its free..

If you dont see yourself having the finances to go elsewhere in the next year or two then I would understand why you would go back,but hopefully that wont be the case.

[maxhair]

aaron1234 - I think the work looks clean and the hairline is good but I also think you're absolutely right, to get the density you want you're gonna need another 2000 in the same area. That's my opinion at least. Again, it doesn't look bad, you just need more grafts. I think you're on the right path. I think you'll look great after a second session.

 

I disagree about one thing though. There are more than two doctors on this site that can do a great job for you.

 

Best wishes.

[the B spot]

Oh, Ok Bill--- I did not see the surgeon listed.

 

I hope this gets sorted.

 

Take Care,

Jason

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Maxhair I just meant because they are so close, but yeah there are 2 or 3 others worth going to

[maxhair]

PLEASE GROW PLEASE - Gotcha. No problem.

[generic1]

Originally posted by Bill - Associate Publisher:

 

4) Though your hair doesn't look real dense, it looks natural

 

 

I think this is important. The result, while insufficient, is utterly organic.

 

Also, that scar at "11 months wet" looks nigh undetectable.