Stop calling hairlines "juvenile", "mature" or "age appropiate"

[NegativeNorwood]

There's no such a thing as a mature, juvenile or age appropiate hairline, you are either balding or not.

None of those terms make sense, they are just a cope.

How do you explain people like Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise, who at 60 years old naturally have "juvenile" hairlines? (and no, they don't wear hairpieces and didn't have transplants done)

Answer: their hairline is not juvenile or age appropiate, simply put, they didn't bald.

Let's take a look at Henry Cavill, who's around Norwood 2 at 40 years old:

Is that age appropiate? No, he's balding, just slowly and less than the average man. This is how his hairline looked like before starting balding:

 

I understand that many people is not fortunate enough to reach Norwood 0 after many transplants, many of them have to be happy with reaching Norwood 3 (which is a huge improvement over being Norwood 6 or 7, don't get me wrong)...but calling Norwood 2 "age appropiate" and think about it as a full head of hair is a huge cope and complete nonsense.

In fact, I've observed cases where people that doesn't have temples but is Norwood 1.5-2 get rejected by clinics for a hair transplant with this senseless argument (your hairline is age appropiate)...I think in reality, their true answer is "we are not skilled enough to do temple work, so we say your hairline is age appropiate instead".

I also see the argument of a Norwood 0-1 hairline looking unnatural in a 30+ years old person...it's unusual, not unnatural. Calling it unnatural makes no sense (see the Tom Cruise/Brad Pitt examples above). This is the same as people calling supermodels and lead actors unnatural looking, they are just not used to see good looking people on average so they cope with "that looks uncanny" instead to feel better about themselves.

I believe the terms age appropiate, juvenile and mature hairline do more harm than good in the long run, as they are misinformation.

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by NegativeNorwood

[mr_peanutbutter]

„also see the argument of a Norwood 0-1 hairline looking unnatural in a 30+ years old person...it's unusual, not unnatural.“

 

I think the main point hair surgeon makes, that even though norwood 1 hairlines are not unnatural for old dudes its very unnatural to have a very low norwood 1 hairline and being completely bald behind it. dudes with a norwood 2 hairline however can be bald behind it naturally. at least thats what i think this hattingen hair surgeon said in this video

 

 

 

[hairman22]

Henry Cavill isnt balding he just had recession in his hairline.

Balding would be a norwood 3 & diffuse loss on the scalp

Cruise and Pitt are outliers for a white male to have a very straight hairline at their age.

I agree the surgeons are turning away patients with a good donor because they dont have the skills to perform temple work.

weird to start a petition about this though

 

[NegativeNorwood]

5 minutes ago, mr_peanutbutter said:

„also see the argument of a Norwood 0-1 hairline looking unnatural in a 30+ years old person...it's unusual, not unnatural.“

 

I think the main point hair surgeon makes, that even though norwood 1 hairlines are not unnatural for old dudes its very unnatural to have a very low norwood 1 hairline and being completely bald behind it. dudes with a norwood 2 hairline however can be bald behind it naturally. at least thats what i think this hattingen hair surgeon said in this video

 

 

 

Can still wear a hairpiece to cover the rest of the hair if he wants too in a worst case scenario.

Or have a good donor area, top tier surgeon and still get it covered (see Zarev cases).

[Rahal Hair Transplant]

@NegativeNorwood,

I understand what you are saying but you are not technically correct. There are individuals who experience what’s called a maturing hairline but yet they don’t possess androgenetic alopecia.  Yes it is true that older men can possess a youthful looking hairline and younger men can possess a larger forehead a.k.a. a higher hairline.  But many men experience what’s called a maturing hairline but they don’t possess male pattern baldness.  So it’s not quite as simple as “you’re balding or you’re not“

Another reason these terms are used is to differentiate and label situations and circumstances.  For example, a man who is 40 with advanced balding may be told that he can be given an “age-appropriate“ hairline instead of a youthful looking one and still obtain the coverage and density he wants and needs behind it.  For that individual’s age, it would be considered appropriate… meaning nobody would look at this older individual and think anything of it whereas if that same hairline was put on a 25 year old, people would likely assume that he is in the process of losing his hair.

So I don’t think these terms are bad nor do they really have any stigma associated with them.  I suppose you could use words like “aggressive” and “conservative” when referring to hairline placement instead of the above terms but they too could potentially be misleading. 

I hope this helps 

Rahal Hair Transplant 

[NegativeNorwood]

8 minutes ago, hairman22 said:

Henry Cavill isnt balding he just had recession in his hairline.

Balding would be a norwood 3 & diffuse loss on the scalp

Cruise and Pitt are outliers for a white male to have a very straight hairline at their age.

I agree the surgeons are turning away patients with a good donor because they dont have the skills to perform temple work.

weird to start a petition about this though

 

 

Hairline recession is balding, because hairs are lost. Not going to get into an argument about it tho, the point is, Cavill lost hair. He doesn't have a full head of hair anymore.

Cruise and Pitt are what top tier hair genetics look like for a white person, that's true. But they serve as good examples that prove "mature" or "juvenile" hairline make no sense per se.

You are right, just removed "petition" from the thread's title.

Edited February 23, 2023 by NegativeNorwood

[NegativeNorwood]

15 minutes ago, Rahal Hair Transplant said:

@NegativeNorwood,

I understand what you are saying but you are not technically correct. There are individuals who experience what’s called a maturing hairline but yet they don’t possess androgenetic alopecia.  Yes it is true that older men can possess a youthful looking hairline and younger men can possess a larger forehead a.k.a. a higher hairline.  But many men experience what’s called a maturing hairline but they don’t possess male pattern baldness.  So it’s not quite as simple as “you’re balding or you’re not“

Another reason these terms are used is to differentiate and label situations and circumstances.  For example, a man who is 40 with advanced balding may be told that he can be given an “age-appropriate“ hairline instead of a youthful looking one and still obtain the coverage and density he wants and needs behind it.  For that individual’s age, it would be considered appropriate… meaning nobody would look at this older individual and think anything of it whereas if that same hairline was put on a 25 year old, people would likely assume that he is in the process of losing his hair.

So I don’t think these terms are bad nor do they really have any stigma associated with them.  I suppose you could use words like “aggressive” and “conservative” when referring to hairline placement instead of the above terms but they too could potentially be misleading. 

I hope this helps 

Rahal Hair Transplant 

 

I understand what you say, but IMO the terms give room to lots of misunderstandings. Like, people getting a "conservative" norwood 2 hairline thinking they have a full head of hair, when in reality what they reached is an acceptable compromise (a hairline that looks normal for someone their age, not a Norwood 1 full head of hair).

I feel that most of the time, those terms are used to stop low Norwood (let's say 2 or even 3) patients to get an improved hairline, even when they are 30+ years old and responded well to medication for long periods of time.

If you read many threads here, they often give the impression that only people that would need 3000+ grafts need a hair transplant (to arrive at a Norwood 2 btw), that's the reason why I made this thread, to vent a little bit and express my opinion about it.

Edited February 23, 2023 by NegativeNorwood

[mr_peanutbutter]

8 minutes ago, Rahal Hair Transplant said:

@NegativeNorwood,

I understand what you are saying but you are not technically correct. There are individuals who experience what’s called a maturing hairline but yet they don’t possess androgenetic alopecia.  Yes it is true that older men can possess a youthful looking hairline and younger men can possess a larger forehead a.k.a. a higher hairline.  But many men experience what’s called a maturing hairline but they don’t possess male pattern baldness.  So it’s not quite as simple as “you’re balding or you’re not“

 

i can see op point here

people who started with a norwood 1 and then kept receeding to norwood 2, still were balding. it just that it stopped there.

 

just like some people stop balding at norwood 3, norwood 4, norwood 5…not everyone who bald ends up being norwood 6/7…

[mr_peanutbutter]

12 minutes ago, NegativeNorwood said:

Can still wear a hairpiece to cover the rest of the hair if he wants too in a worst case scenario.

Or have a good donor area, top tier surgeon and still get it covered (see Zarev cases).

yes but maybe not everyone wants to do that so the doc takes the worst scenario into account

 

and thats why he prefers to transplant a hairline that still would work when you lose all your hair behind it. work in a way that it can also be seen in people who never got a ht

[Curious25]

33 minutes ago, Rahal Hair Transplant said:

@NegativeNorwood,

I understand what you are saying but you are not technically correct. There are individuals who experience what’s called a maturing hairline but yet they don’t possess androgenetic alopecia.  Yes it is true that older men can possess a youthful looking hairline and younger men can possess a larger forehead a.k.a. a higher hairline.  But many men experience what’s called a maturing hairline but they don’t possess male pattern baldness.  So it’s not quite as simple as “you’re balding or you’re not“

Another reason these terms are used is to differentiate and label situations and circumstances.  For example, a man who is 40 with advanced balding may be told that he can be given an “age-appropriate“ hairline instead of a youthful looking one and still obtain the coverage and density he wants and needs behind it.  For that individual’s age, it would be considered appropriate… meaning nobody would look at this older individual and think anything of it whereas if that same hairline was put on a 25 year old, people would likely assume that he is in the process of losing his hair.

So I don’t think these terms are bad nor do they really have any stigma associated with them.  I suppose you could use words like “aggressive” and “conservative” when referring to hairline placement instead of the above terms but they too could potentially be misleading. 

I hope this helps 

Rahal Hair Transplant 

Disagree.
 

To get to the stage of being a proud owner of the so called ‘mature hairline’, it means that the individual has had to have endured some androgen induced balding, albeit to a much lesser extent than somebody with what we would consider as the average rate or extent of androgenetic alopecia - however regardless of this, it doesn’t take away the fact that they have still experienced hair loss via androgen induced miniaturisation - the hairline doesn’t just magically change when the clock strikes midnight on your 21st birthday. 
 

Whether or not they are still ‘balding’ , would be determined by checking for miniaturisation throughout the scalp. But this is a dud point - because you could have an individual presenting to be a NW5, who technically wasn’t balding should a trichoscopic exam uncover there is no miniaturisation in the remaining regions of native hair. He would have endured miniaturisation of the NW5 region follicles to get to where he is, in exactly the same manner as to which the individual with a ‘mature hairline’ had done, the difference being, one individual had a much larger amount and area of follicles sensitive to androgens than the other. 
 

I agree with the points I think OP, is trying to make. 
 

Androgen induced balding is balding - no matter the size or location of the area that has been lost or is thinning. 
 

The term age appropriate would be better replaced with a label such as ‘facial dimensionally appropriate’ or ‘appropriate in line with your balding pattern’ etc. 

 

[Phillyman1996]

You have a great point brad pitt and tom cruise have great hairines its not too low not too high with  little to no recession

[g8n2h9k3u7]

Yep, agreed with OP. A "mature hairline" is just a slow progression of male pattern baldness as opposed to a quick one. The term really shouldn't be used at all. 

Also agreed that Norwood 1 hairlines don't look inappropriate on older men. There are legitimate arguments against transplanting a Norwood 1 hairline, but that isn't one of them. 

[NegativeNorwood]

1 hour ago, Curious25 said:

Disagree.
 

To get to the stage of being a proud owner of the so called ‘mature hairline’, it means that the individual has had to have endured some androgen induced balding, albeit to a much lesser extent than somebody with what we would consider as the average rate or extent of androgenetic alopecia - however regardless of this, it doesn’t take away the fact that they have still experienced hair loss via androgen induced miniaturisation - the hairline doesn’t just magically change when the clock strikes midnight on your 21st birthday. 
 

Whether or not they are still ‘balding’ , would be determined by checking for miniaturisation throughout the scalp. But this is a dud point - because you could have an individual presenting to be a NW5, who technically wasn’t balding should a trichoscopic exam uncover there is no miniaturisation in the remaining regions of native hair. He would have endured miniaturisation of the NW5 region follicles to get to where he is, in exactly the same manner as to which the individual with a ‘mature hairline’ had done, the difference being, one individual had a much larger amount and area of follicles sensitive to androgens than the other. 
 

I agree with the points I think OP, is trying to make. 
 

Androgen induced balding is balding - no matter the size or location of the area that has been lost or is thinning. 
 

The term age appropriate would be better replaced with a label such as ‘facial dimensionally appropriate’ or ‘appropriate in line with your balding pattern’ etc. 

 

 

Thanks for the in depth explanation, couldn't have said it better (because I don't have that much knowledge).

Agree 100% with you.

 

22 minutes ago, g8n2h9k3u7 said:

Yep, agreed with OP. A "mature hairline" is just a slow progression of male pattern baldness as opposed to a quick one. The term really shouldn't be used at all. 

Also agreed that Norwood 1 hairlines don't look inappropriate on older men. There are legitimate arguments against transplanting a Norwood 1 hairline, but that isn't one of them. 

 

I think it's because most hair transplant clinics don't know how to transplant temples correctly, which are needed for a perfect hairline. If they tried to, the sloppiness of the work will show off against the rest of the natural hairline, thus "your hairline is age appropiate" is a very convenient excuse for them to continue that way IMO.

[Melvin- Admin]

The reason why juvenile hairlines are called juvenile is because the general population of males only have that shape and density when they’re juveniles. 

Mature hairlines occur to most individuals as they get older. Are there outliers? Of course, but those are exceptions not the rule. 
 

Patrick Stewart was balding in his teens, should we just start saying that it’s normal for teens to go bald? That’s the same argument. 
 

[Xanadu]

Here is a vidoe by Eugenix in which they talk about 'indentation' versus 'no indentation'. Indentation is what someone like Liam Neeson has. They argue that having no indentation at a mature age looks unnatural or feminine. Children and women have no indentation.

I kind of see what you mean, but overall I agree with most hair transplant clinics (like Eugenix) when they use the term age appropriate. 

Also, even outliers like Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise, are we sure their hairline is completely natural and they never used enhancing medicine?

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Xanadu

[Xanadu]

7 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

The reason why juvenile hairlines are called juvenile is because the general population of males only have that shape and density when they’re juveniles. 

Mature hairlines occur to most individuals as they get older. Are there outliers? Of course, but those are exceptions not the rule. 
 

Patrick Stewart was balding in his teens, should we just start saying that it’s normal for teens to go bald? That’s the same argument. 
 

 

[Melvin- Admin]

If you had a crystal ball and saw that your would never lose hair past Norwood 3 level, then yea go for a Norwood 0 hairline.The likelihood of anyone getting a hair transplant not losing more hair is 0.1%.

The goal of a hair transplant and clinic is to set you up for a longterm result. A 60 year old man with a juvenile hairline and nothing in the back would look ridiculous, and no being on finasteride doesn’t mean you won’t continue to thin. Medications are not a cure.

[HappyMan2021]

One man's "mature hairline" is another man's NW2.

Just like everything else in this industry, it's all subjective and people can classify themselves however they want. 

[Xanadu]

11 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

If you had a crystal ball and saw that your would never lose hair past Norwood 3 level, then yea go for a Norwood 0 hairline.The likelihood of anyone getting a hair transplant not losing more hair is 0.1%.

The goal of a hair transplant and clinic is to set you up for a longterm result. A 60 year old man with a juvenile hairline and nothing in the back would look ridiculous, and no being on finasteride doesn’t mean you won’t continue to thin. Medications are not a cure.

People are different. Which is good. Personally, if I knew 100% surely that I would not loose any more hair, I would go for a NW2 (or maybe 3) I think. I would be quite okay, and actually prefer, to have my hairline say 'man' (because that's what it would signal since children and women are unlikely to have this hairline).

But if someone wants a completely virgin hairline (untouched by life and DHT) then I have no issue with that of of course. It is probably a personal choice which reflects how we see ourselves.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Xanadu

[NegativeNorwood]

36 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

The reason why juvenile hairlines are called juvenile is because the general population of males only have that shape and density when they’re juveniles. 

Mature hairlines occur to most individuals as they get older. Are there outliers? Of course, but those are exceptions not the rule. 
 

Patrick Stewart was balding in his teens, should we just start saying that it’s normal for teens to go bald? That’s the same argument. 
 

 

You only prove my point with the Patrick Stewart example. Those terms are generalizations and are not accurate. It would be much better to call the hairline by the norwood scale and hairloss pattern. Is it less palatable at first read? Yes, but at least doesn't lead to confusions and is accurate.

34 minutes ago, Xanadu said:

Here is a vidoe by Eugenix in which they talk about 'indentation' versus 'no indentation'. Indentation is what someone like Liam Neeson has. They argue that having no indentation at a mature age looks unnatural or feminine. Children and women have no indentation.

I kind of see what you mean, but overall I agree with most hair transplant clinics (like Eugenix) when they use the term age appropriate. 

Also, even outliers like Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise, are we sure their hairline is completely natural and they never used enhancing medicine?

 

 

I'm aware of that. Hairline indentations are a male dimorphic feature, as no hairline is completely flat. No indentation is a feminine dimorphic feature.

It doesn't have anything to do with hairloss pattern, because it is the hairline shape you are born with.

[NegativeNorwood]

37 minutes ago, Xanadu said:

 

 

Oh, the usual "I'm old and I'm right" phrases. See, rules are short (to be remembered easily), and so are exceptions.

An accurate statement would be:

"Young men remeber the rules and the exceptions easily, because they are fresh and alert. Old men are prone to senility and usually forget the rules and exceptions, but to not admit they are wrong, they usually make the exception the rule to fit their argument".

 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by NegativeNorwood

[NegativeNorwood]

14 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

If you had a crystal ball and saw that your would never lose hair past Norwood 3 level, then yea go for a Norwood 0 hairline.The likelihood of anyone getting a hair transplant not losing more hair is 0.1%.

The goal of a hair transplant and clinic is to set you up for a longterm result. A 60 year old man with a juvenile hairline and nothing in the back would look ridiculous, and no being on finasteride doesn’t mean you won’t continue to thin. Medications are not a cure.

 

Sure, but hair transplant procedures won't stagnate the next 30 years. That argument is valid for today, you don't know what we will have on hand in 10 or 20 years, like you can't tell if someone will bald more or not.

Also you can always wear a hairpiece behind the transplanted hairline, so is not like it's over if the worst happens:

https://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/topic/58091-repair-case-using-a-combined-ht-and-hair-system-dr-taleb-barghouthi-vertex-hair-clinic/

[NegativeNorwood]

14 minutes ago, HappyMan2021 said:

One man's "mature hairline" is another man's NW2.

Just like everything else in this industry, it's all subjective and people can classify themselves however they want. 

 

No no, it's not subjective. It's the same with a different name because those two people are in two different mental situations, one of them chose to cope because it may fit his mental health better in the long run, and the other chose to call it Norwood 2 because he doesn't care or at least can handle being honest with himself.

[GoliGoliGoli]

This is the most pointless, semantic argument I've ever seen. On this forum or any other. 

[Mike10]

This is Hollywood man. In reality, nearly every man will have some hairline recession. So yeah these juvenile can look soemwhat unnatural later on