Stop calling hairlines "juvenile", "mature" or "age appropiate"

[NegativeNorwood]

11 minutes ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

This is the most pointless, semantic argument I've ever seen. On this forum or any other. 

 

Thanks for your invaluable input. I hope your Norwood level is as low as your reading comprehension skills 😔

[NegativeNorwood]

Just now, Mike10 said:

This is Hollywood man. In reality, nearly every man will have some hairline recession. So yeah these juvenile can look soemwhat unnatural later on

 

They would have the same hairline if they were Walmart cashiers and not Hollywood stars. I've seen plenty of 60+ year old people with hairlines like that in my life.

[Melvin- Admin]

44 minutes ago, NegativeNorwood said:

 

You only prove my point with the Patrick Stewart example. Those terms are generalizations and are not accurate. It would be much better to call the hairline by the norwood scale and hairloss pattern. Is it less palatable at first read? Yes, but at least doesn't lead to confusions and is accurate.

 

I'm aware of that. Hairline indentations are a male dimorphic feature, as no hairline is completely flat. No indentation is a feminine dimorphic feature.

It doesn't have anything to do with hairloss pattern, because it is the hairline shape you are born with.

There’s nothing wrong with calling it a juvenile or mature hairline. That’s like calling someone “average” height instead of saying 5’10. The majority of the male population on earth follow the juvenile to mature hairline pattern. Almost everyone has the male pattern baldness gene in their gene pool. But their sensitivity to DHT varies, that’s why we have various degrees of baldness. The two extremes Norwood 0 and Norwood 7 aren’t common at all. 
 

Also, people outside of the hair loss community don’t have a clue what the Norwood scale is, so it makes it easier to say juvenile or mature hairline to the general public. Walking around and saying that’s a Norwood 2 hairline isn’t really feasible in real life scenarios. Now, If you wanna say non-receded vs. receded that makes more sense than using the Norwood scale.

 

 

[NegativeNorwood]

11 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

There’s nothing wrong with calling it a juvenile or mature hairline. That’s like calling someone “average” height instead of saying 5’10. The majority of the male population on earth follow the juvenile to mature hairline pattern. Almost everyone has the male pattern baldness gene in their gene pool. But their sensitivity to DHT varies, that’s why we have various degrees of baldness. The two extremes Norwood 0 and Norwood 7 aren’t common at all. 
 

Also, people outside of the hair loss community don’t have a clue what the Norwood scale is, so it makes it easier to say juvenile or mature hairline to the general public. Walking around and saying that’s a Norwood 2 hairline isn’t really feasible in real life scenarios. Now, If you wanna say non-receded vs. receded that makes more sense than using the Norwood scale.

 

 

 

I don't agree. "Average" is misleading, 5'10 would be short in Netherlands and tall in Peru, for example, and as such one person that reads "average height" would understand 6'1 (dutch reader), and the other 5'5 (peruvian reader). There's a huge difference in that.

People outside the hairloss community knows how to read, and they can learn about the Norwood scale like everyone else here instead of using potentially misleading but more palatable at first terms that will lead to confusion once they gather a little bit of knowledge ("you are not balding, you have a mature hairline" and the man with a Norwood 2 thinking "that doesn't make sense, I have less hair than before").

Those terms may seem like a good "gateway" or an easy way to explain hair loss at first, but IMO in the long run they do more harm than good compared to understanding the Norwood scale first.

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by NegativeNorwood

[Xanadu]

20 minutes ago, NegativeNorwood said:

 

I don't agree. "Average" is misleading, 5'10 would be short in Netherlands and tall in Peru, for example, and as such one person that reads "average height" would understand 6'1 (dutch reader), and the other 5'5 (peruvian reader). There's a huge difference in that.

People outside the hairloss community knows how to read, and they can learn about the Norwood scale like everyone else here instead of using potentially misleading but more palatable at first terms that will lead to confusion once they gather a little bit of knowledge ("you are not balding, you have a mature hairline" and the man with a Norwood 2 thinking "that doesn't make sense, I have less hair than before").

Those terms may seem like a good "gateway" or an easy way to explain hair loss at first, but IMO in the long run they do more harm than good compared to understanding the Norwood scale first.

 

I don't see the juxtaposition of knowing about the Norwood scale and calling a NW2 a mature hairline.

People can know about the NW scale very intimately (like Melvin, Eugenix etc.) and still find that a NW2 or NW3 represents a mature hairline while a NW0 represents a juvenile hairline. 

In terms of the height example, Melvin could have used the height of tigers, ostriches or anything else. The point is that there are the typical state of affairs (such as the typical weight of a bull and just because there are exceptions does not mean the entire rule is invalid or should be changed), and some extreme cases does not make it invalid to take about such typical (or average) state of affairs.

[NegativeNorwood]

2 minutes ago, Xanadu said:

I don't see the juxtaposition of knowing about the Norwood scale and calling a NW2 a mature hairline.

People can know about the NW scale very intimately (like Melvin, Eugenix etc.) and still find that a NW2 or NW3 represents a mature hairline while a NW0 represents a juvenile hairline. 

In terms of the height example, Melvin could have used the height of tigers, ostriches or anything else. The point is that there are the typical state of affairs (such as the typical weight of a bull and just because there are exceptions does not mean the entire rule is invalid or should be changed), and some extreme cases does not make it invalid to take about such typical (or average) state of affairs.

 

I see it clearly. Norwood 2 is balding, just a little bit, but it is. It gets often called mature hairline, as if it wasn't a consequence of balding.

That's the point.

[Xanadu]

Just now, NegativeNorwood said:

 

I see it clearly. Norwood 2 is balding, just a little bit, but it is. It gets often called mature hairline, as if it wasn't a consequence of balding.

That's the point.

It's definitely a consequence of balding - either DHT or age related balding. That is what it means to be a man - almost all are at least influenced a bit by male hormones. It distinguishes us from kids. That's why it is a mature hairline. 

Those wrinkles around the eyes that Clint Eastwood had when he was like 30 were also a result of ageing - just a bit. And many (men and women) found them masculine and attractive. Kids don't have them - 11 year old Justin Bieber didn't have them. So some is good - it distinguishes us from kids, but most don't want too much.... be it wrinkles or hair-loss.

[NegativeNorwood]

7 minutes ago, Xanadu said:

It's definitely a consequence of balding - either DHT or age related balding. That is what it means to be a man - almost all are at least influenced a bit by male hormones. It distinguishes us from kids. That's why it is a mature hairline. 

Those wrinkles around the eyes that Clint Eastwood had when he was like 30 were also a result of ageing - just a bit. And many (men and women) found them masculine and attractive. Kids don't have them - 11 year old Justin Bieber didn't have them. So some is good - it distinguishes us from kids, but most don't want too much.... be it wrinkles or hair-loss.

 

Couldn't help but laugh a bit when I read "that is what it means to be a man"...so you are telling me this 60 year old individual is not a man to you?

 

That's a new level of coping tbh. See, some people have good genetics, in addition of taking care of themselves. If the individual above looks like a woman (or a kid) to you...all the power to you, be happy in your own bubble.

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by NegativeNorwood

[NegativeNorwood]

@XanaduBtw, what differences a man from a kid (or a woman) is not hair, but the bones and skeletal frame:

 

A feminine hairline is not going to transform a guy with masculine bone structure into a female:

 

 

And a masculine hairline won't turn a 15 year old female into an adult male (Shiloh has exactly the same hairline as his father, Brad Pitt):

 

 

You live in Son Goku's cloud if you truly believe a single word of what you wrote.

Edited February 23, 2023 by NegativeNorwood

[Mike10]

1 hour ago, NegativeNorwood said:

 

They would have the same hairline if they were Walmart cashiers and not Hollywood stars. I've seen plenty of 60+ year old people with hairlines like that in my life.

nothing is real in hollywood

[Xanadu]

12 minutes ago, NegativeNorwood said:

 

Couldn't help but laugh a bit when I read "that is what it means to be a man"...so you are telling me this 60 year old individual is not a man to you?

 

That's a new level of coping tbh. See, some people have good genetics, in addition of taking care of themselves. If the individual above looks like a woman (or a kid) to you...all the power to you, be happy in your own bubble.

 

It seems like you still don't really understand, or don't want to understand, the difference between norms and outliers. Tom Cruise is an outlier. Anecdotal evidence cannot be used to disprove a rule - that is classical test theory.

[NegativeNorwood]

Just now, Mike10 said:

nothing is real in hollywood

 

Okay, you win. This is how Brad Pitt looks like when he takes out the wig once he arrives at the trailer park where he lives:

 

[NegativeNorwood]

3 minutes ago, Xanadu said:

It seems like you still don't really understand, or don't want to understand, the difference between norms and outliers. Tom Cruise is an outlier. Anecdotal evidence cannot be used to disprove a rule - that is classical test theory.

 

You are using non sense to prove your theory. Cruise is an outlier, but you don't need to be a man to bald. You have to have a pee pee to be a man (a biological one at least). Women bald too.

Edited February 23, 2023 by NegativeNorwood

[Mike10]

I think a lot of HTs will look unnatural in higher age.Too straight the hairline

[NegativeNorwood]

12 minutes ago, Mike10 said:

I think a lot of HTs will look unnatural in higher age.Too straight the hairline

 

True for poorly executed transplants with bad, straight hairline designs, but is has nothing to do with this thread because the hairlines posted in the OP are not straight:

 

Look at that fake, short hollywood wig (in case you didn't notice, this last sentence is strong sacarsm).

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by NegativeNorwood

[NegativeNorwood]

POV: you want to go from Norwood 2 to Norwood 0 at 30+ years old (with strong donor, slow hair loss and responding well to meds) and post it here:

Edited February 23, 2023 by NegativeNorwood

[sunsurfhair]

It’s a silly thing to discuss because -

1) Hairlines are subjective. ALL that matters is if the patient is happy with his/her hairline. That’s it. 

2) Hairlines can be high and still look terrible if a person has a wide face, large forehead etc. The key is designing the hairline incorporating the proper corners, central hairline, and temple points for the best framing for each person’s face.

3) Some people feel much more comfortable with a younger / youthful hairline where others actually prefer a classically more mature hairline which just translates in my mind to a higher hairline at it’s core.

4) Technically speaking there IS a difference between a juvenile and adult/mature hairline. This typically occurs as a young man goes through puberty and gets their first large hit of T/DHT and the hormonal profile rebalances to an adult profile. The hairline will then take on some natural change/recession which mimics the mature hairline. This does NOT mean or translate to true recession or MPB. 

5) I believe both Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise have had some hair work done. It is extremely easy to camouflage mini FUE sessions especially with no shave. So I would not immediately discount that both of them have had some work done, especially Tom Cruise. He was caught at a ball game during Covid looking like an entirely different person with his son. Check out his hair in particular. 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by sunsurfhair

[NegativeNorwood]

11 minutes ago, sunsurfhair said:

It’s a silly thing to discuss because -

1) Hairlines are subjective. ALL that matters is if the patient is happy with his/her hairline. That’s it. 

2) Hairlines can be high and still look terrible if a person has a wide face, large forehead etc. The key is designing the hairline incorporating the proper corners, central hairline, and temple points for the best framing for each person’s face.

3) Some people feel much more comfortable with a younger / youthful hairline where others actually prefer a classically more mature hairline which just translates in my mind to a higher hairline at it’s core.

4) Technically speaking there IS a difference between a juvenile and adult/mature hairline. This typically occurs as a young man goes through puberty and get their large hit of T/DHT and the hormonal profile rebalances to an adult profile. The hairline will then take on some natural change/recession which mimics the mature hairline. This does NOT mean or translate to true recession or MPB. 

5) I believe both Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise have had some hair work done. It is extremely easy to camouflage mini FUE sessions especially with no shave. So I would not immediately discount that both of them have had some work done, especially Tom Cruise. He was caught at a ball game during Covid looking like an entirely different person with his son. Check out his hair in particular. 

 

 

Bloated face + hair styled differently. He didn't get a hair transplant. As you implied, the wider face, plus the camera's lens distortion, angle of the picture and lighting (in addition of hair texture, could have used gel instead of powders to style his hair) make the hair appear different, but in reality is the same.

Btw we are talking about calling a Norwood 2 a mature hairline instead of hair loss, which is wrong, doesn't matter if by puberty or MPB, it is hair loss. Massive strawman argument you made.

Sure, there's people who prefer a Norwood 3 hairline, as there's people who likes sharing their wife with other men. Nothing wrong with that, "is just their preference" (not mine tho). It has nothing to do with calling Norwood 2 a mature hairline and not hair loss (which, spoiler: it is).

 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by NegativeNorwood

[sunsurfhair]

4 minutes ago, NegativeNorwood said:

 

Bloated face + hair styled differently. He didn't get a hair transplant. As you implied, the wider face, plus the camera's lens distortion, angle of the picture and lighting (in addition of hair texture, could have used gel instead of powders to style his hair) make the hair appear different, but in reality is the same.

Btw we are talking about calling a Norwood 2 a mature hairline instead of hair loss, which is wrong, doesn't matter if by puberty or MPB, it is hair loss. Massive strawman argument you made.

Sure, there's people who prefer a Norwood 3 hairline, as there's people who likes sharing their wife with other men. Nothing wrong with that, "is just their preference" (not mine tho). It has nothing to do with calling Norwood 2 a mature hairline and not hair loss (which, spoiler: it is).

 

 

RE: Tom Cruise, I’m not referring to the bloat in his face. That was obviously from some cosmetic procedure he had done. He had markings on his neck as well that were not there many weeks later. I think it’s extremely plausible that he may have had 1 or 2 mini FUE sessions to add density. This is extremely common, especially in that world, way more than you think and much easier to do than you think. 

RE: Mature v Juvenile, sadly, you’re entirely misinformed. There is absolutely a well understood difference between a mature hairline and a juvenile hairline that does not translate into MPB. See below for an excellent interpretation:

 

What Is a Mature Hairline?

The hairline is a prime indicator for the overall status and health of a person’s hair, especially for men, who tend to show signs of pattern balding on the front of the scalp and sides of the temples.

In the hair restoration space, we usually use the term “mature hairline” to refer to the natural hair maturation process in men between the ages of 17 and 29.

A helpful point of view is to compare a mature hairline to a juvenile or youthful hairline. 

While juvenile hairlines are typically low and full on the frontal region of the scalp, mature hairlines are set back, closer to the vertex, often with more space on either side of the head in a slight M-shaped pattern.

A mature hairline should not be confused with a receding hairline, however. Receding hairlines advance beyond what is considered to be a mature hairline, characterized by the miniaturization of hairs on the front and sides of the scalp.

 

[NegativeNorwood]

8 minutes ago, sunsurfhair said:

RE: Tom Cruise, I’m not referring to the bloat in his face. That was obviously from some cosmetic procedure he had done. He had markings on his neck as well that were not there many weeks later. I think it’s extremely plausible that he may have had 1 or 2 mini FUE sessions to add density. This is extremely common, especially in that world, way more than you think and much easier to do than you think. 

RE: Mature v Juvenile, sadly, you’re entirely misinformed. There is absolutely a well understood difference between a mature hairline and a juvenile hairline that does not translate into MPB. See below for an excellent interpretation:

 

What Is a Mature Hairline?

The hairline is a prime indicator for the overall status and health of a person’s hair, especially for men, who tend to show signs of pattern balding on the front of the scalp and sides of the temples.

In the hair restoration space, we usually use the term “mature hairline” to refer to the natural hair maturation process in men between the ages of 17 and 29.

A helpful point of view is to compare a mature hairline to a juvenile or youthful hairline. 

While juvenile hairlines are typically low and full on the frontal region of the scalp, mature hairlines are set back, closer to the vertex, often with more space on either side of the head in a slight M-shaped pattern.

A mature hairline should not be confused with a receding hairline, however. Receding hairlines advance beyond what is considered to be a mature hairline, characterized by the miniaturization of hairs on the front and sides of the scalp.

 

 

Cosmetic procedures are common in hollywood, but he didn't get a hair transplant with that hair. It's camera, lighting and whatever he used to style his hair. Go and look at turkish hair mills before and after pics, you'll see how the before lighting is always similar to that picture, to make the hair appear worse than it actually is.

Hair loss is hair loss, doesn't matter how you want to name it.

You either have all your hair, or you lose hair (could be a little, could be a lot).

Simple as that. Most hairlines are M shaped to some degree (in caucasian men), so practically no one is born with a completely flat hairline. They just name the small level of recession "mature hairline", when in reality is just a small level of recession.

You don't turn out 21, get your driver's license and buy booze and automatically a Norwood 2 appears out of the blue with sign that says "congratulations, you are now a mature man". That article is cope and non sense.

Edited February 23, 2023 by NegativeNorwood

[NegativeNorwood]

Go and tell him this is a "mature crown" and that he's not balding:

 

Same logic as "mature hairline"...none, pure nonsense.

[MattJosh]

the OP is clueless

 

Tom Cruise had a HT in 2006 , he had a bowl cut the whole year and you can see in 2007-8 the change see pic, and another after 2015

Despite his extreme self care, he's losing something as in the pic from 2 years ago below

 

Henry Cavill had a HT in between 2020/21, here is a pic of him in 2019 and that's for a photoshoot(where they make everything look much better), look back over a decade and you see his recession growing, he's made a great choice by doing it

 

Brad Pitt might had a very small one in the 2012/13 years when he was shaving his temporal points and having a middle part for a year or so, look at his brother, great hair but some minor recession

 

As for meds, they are all on meds

 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by MattJosh

[HappyMan2021]

Just now, MattJosh said:

Tom Cruise had a HT in 2006 , he had a bowl cut the whole year and you can see in 2007-8 the change see pic, and another after 2015

Despite his extreme self care, he's losing something as in the pic from 2 years ago below

 

Henry Cavill had a HT in between 2020/21, here is a pic of him in 2019 and that's for a photoshoot(where they make everything look much better), look back over a decade and you see his recession growing, he's made a great choice by doing it

 

Brad Pitt might had a very small one in the 2012/13 years when he was shaving his temporal points and having a middle part for a year or so, look at this brother, great hair but some recession

 

As for meds, they are all on meds

I agree that most celebrities have had hair transplants.

The vast majority of guys have MPB, yet if you only looked at Hollywood actors, you would think MPB is some super rare, freak, horrible condition.

Coincidence? I think not. 

[sunsurfhair]

13 minutes ago, MattJosh said:

the OP is clueless

 

Tom Cruise had a HT in 2006 , he had a bowl cut the whole year and you can see in 2007-8 the change see pic, and another after 2015

Despite his extreme self care, he's losing something as in the pic from 2 years ago below

 

Henry Cavill had a HT in between 2020/21, here is a pic of him in 2019 and that's for a photoshoot(where they make everything look much better), look back over a decade and you see his recession growing, he's made a great choice by doing it

 

Brad Pitt might had a very small one in the 2012/13 years when he was shaving his temporal points and having a middle part for a year or so, look at his brother, great hair but some minor recession

 

As for meds, they are all on meds

 

 

Wow look at the change on Cavill! I wonder if he’s on Fin though? He’s always massive I can’t imagine his DHT is too low because it’s important for muscular growth. 

 

9 Potential Effects of DHT

1) Blood Sugar Control

DHT may help those with diabetes and high blood sugar by regulating glucose metabolism [4].

According to a study on mice, it may lower blood sugar levels and help with type 2 diabetes in males. Application of DHEA to rats increased levels of DHT and improved insulin-sensitivity, weight, and body fat [5, 6].

2) Memory

Men between the ages of 34 and 70 showed improvements in memory when treated with DHT skin patches [7].

3) Sexual Function

DHT can improve sexual ability in men regardless of factors like age and obesity. Along with testosterone, it’s necessary to maintain a healthy sex drive in men [8, 9].

DHT helped boys born with reduced penile function. It is the main hormone to prevent erectile dysfunction in rats [10, 11].

Women with lifelong sexual abstinence were more likely to have low levels of free DHT in the blood [12].

DHT is crucial for sexual health, libido, and erections in men.

4) Heart Health

Higher levels of DHT were associated with lower amounts of fat deposits in the hearts of men with coronary artery disease (CAD) [13].

Lower levels of DHT and testosterone resulted in an increased risk for cardiovascular complications for men undergoing testosterone-lowering treatment for prostate cancer. Elderly men with higher levels of DHT have lower death rates from heart disease [14, 15].

5) Strength and Muscle Mass

In women, muscle DHT levels correlate with strength and power [16].

DHT appeared to increase muscle mass in postmenopausal rats [17].

6) Autoimmune Diseases

Men are 3-20 times less likely to get multiple sclerosis, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, Hashimoto’s, Graves’, Sjogren’s, and other autoimmune diseases. This may be due, in part, to male hormones having a protective effect against autoimmune conditions [18, 19, 20, 21, 22,23].

7) Healthy Cognitive Function

Declining levels of DHT and other sex hormones in older men are associated with declining cognitive function [30].

😎 Anxiety & Depression

Testosterone’s anti-anxiety benefits were shown to be a result of the actions of DHT in the brain [31].

The drug finasteride, which lowers DHT levels in the blood, may induce symptoms of depression [32].

 

9) Bone Growth

DHT is vital for bone density – increased blood levels are associated with higher bone density in men [33].

Other

DHT relieved pain caused by diabetes in rats [34].

Edited February 23, 2023 by sunsurfhair

[NegativeNorwood]

17 minutes ago, MattJosh said:

the OP is clueless

 

Tom Cruise had a HT in 2006 , he had a bowl cut the whole year and you can see in 2007-8 the change see pic, and another after 2015

Despite his extreme self care, he's losing something as in the pic from 2 years ago below

 

Henry Cavill had a HT in between 2020/21, here is a pic of him in 2019 and that's for a photoshoot(where they make everything look much better), look back over a decade and you see his recession growing, he's made a great choice by doing it

 

Brad Pitt might had a very small one in the 2012/13 years when he was shaving his temporal points and having a middle part for a year or so, look at his brother, great hair but some minor recession

 

As for meds, they are all on meds

 

 

 

They have the same hair, just different lighting and wet vs dry hair in Cruise's pictures. Pitt shaved the temples for a movie role. Cavill didn't have a hair transplant. Tremendous straw grasping you did there, you truly are clueless if you don't understand how lighting can influence the perception of hair. That's why there are so many bad doctors out there, because they use favorable lighting and low resolution pictures to show their results as better than they actually are. You are doing the opposite and showing pictures with bad lighting to prove your crazy theory.

 

14 minutes ago, HappyMan2021 said:

I agree that most celebrities have had hair transplants.

The vast majority of guys have MPB, yet if you only looked at Hollywood actors, you would think MPB is some super rare, freak, horrible condition.

Coincidence? I think not. 

 

You need to be a happy man accepting that there's people out there with better genetics than you, delusion is not happiness. Many people in Hollywood had hair transplants, just not Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise or Henry Cavill.

James Franco is a good example of a celebrity with minimal hair loss that got a hair transplant, and the change is pretty evident:

 

He has unlimited money, same Hollywood friend's circle and connections...yet the small change is noticeable when you compare pictures with the same lighting. Do you really think Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt can get away with it and he can't? Non sense, all of them have the same amount resources, the difference is that Cruise and Pitt didn't have a hair transplant.

Edited February 23, 2023 by NegativeNorwood