Everything You Need To Know About Topical Dutasteride

[Melvin- Admin]

54 minutes ago, arthurSam said:

Yes DHT fluctuate in a day but they took multiple blood test in a day to eliminate the fluctuation.

 

It proove that duta can increase dht for some people and not fina.

All the ingredient are low cost and available at Alibaba and they can be stored for 2 years. The emulsifier for a small lab 300ml cost is less than 300$

I would not recommend anyone buy sourced compounds from alibaba. Its from China, notorious for sending fake products. God knows what you’ll receive. If it’s about money, just get on generic oral dutasteride, much safer. 

[Nemiline]

11 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Check their library. I believe they released their studies. Also, they did break down their studies on our live podcast last year. 
 

 

 

Thanks for linking me to their library and your podcast I think I have actually dug pretty deep and gone through all the studies. Unfortunately the 4 studies are  of topcical Fin and I have yet to find any on topical Dut, seems like they havn't relased them yet and not sure if Xyon Experience team would provice on request.

Havimg to make the decision whehter to choose the topical fin, or choose topical dut instead, i can't just make the blind assunptiom that topical Dut indeed works better than topical Fin. It seems intuitve that topical dut SHOULD work better and I should go for it asap, since it inhibits type 1+ type 2 5ar and oral verison cut dht by higher amount and oral dut version is also proven to be stronger than oral fin in the literature.

But I cant say for sure for topical dut > topical fin in terms of efficacy as there seems to be not enougb literature out there. Though it has a large molecular size(>500 Dalton's Rule) so it probably won' t get into your bloodstram, downside is it is unclear whether ebough would get into hair folicile to signfiicanr extent/ loeer dht in the tissue  (explained by a Doctor of Pharmacy around 4:00

Thus I probably would like to see more data on the fact that topical dut really has a better outcome compared to topical fin perhaps on haircount (oh btw none of the studies relaeased by Hasson on topical fin actually compares the clinical outcome and supports his statement that the topical fin works as well as oral fin though there are studies stating so from others but they are not perfect either I won't go into too much details here) or at least data that it lowers scalp DHT by a larger amount than Finasteride or at least (not rigorous at all but bette than nothing) some comment on clinical observations that topical dut > topical fin like how Dr Hasson mentioned that topical fin seemed to work at least as well as oral fin and has even better efficacy somehow in the frontal area.

 

Oh and more data about Xyon topical Dut's bloodstream absorptiom and reduction in blood dht is probably improtsnt too, as I don't want too much of that in ny system if not any. it seems logicsl that Dut seems to be causing more side effects than Fin (thoigh doctors argue that they have same side effect profile as fin). Even for oral Fin it seems that besides the reversible sides, there could be long term clinical or subclinical negstive effects for taking it (eg paper by Traish but won'tcite too much here), not to mention the really really rare PFS,  so it would seem prudent to make sure that not much Dut really gets into the blood. I am not sure I would be comfortable enoigh to take oral Dut  at this stage either to put it in perspective though I admit I havnt done enough research on oral Dut.
 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Hans - Webmaster
Fixed YouTube link to embed clip

[Nemiline]

9 hours ago, arthurSam said:

I attache the 2 files for Fina & Duta. There are public. It is really cool you have the recipe to make your own Xyon liposomal gel 😁

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bcyQbzEhlWielKFb0-iL6ZyO7tA3uL8E/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gXhQr9R2j6aWfardfqSQB7f42uBvM5Ml/view?usp=sharing

 

Thanks for linking the articles, seem like both articles contained info on Xyon topical fin and dut. Unfortunately after a brief skim I canmot find any studies comparing the efficacy between topical fin and topical dut. I will tkae another look tomorrow to make sure. 

And as Melvin mentioned, there coulf also be other stufies done after the patents are applied that is not included anf  are not yet released.

i am curious where you found those documents though?

As for the increase in serum DHT form the topical Dut, I havnt seem this mentioned anywhere else in the literature or other places. My suspect (100% not sure) is that the Dut is not causing that as there are no pathways explaining it. Ive read though that DHT is highly sensitive to other factors so perhaps a change in diet, sleep, or stress levels can cause some fluctuations. i suppose if possible Melvin can ask Dr Hassom this as well.

PS:  is there any info on the approx time in terms of weeks the podcast Q&A or whatever is scheduled so I perhaps expect when more informatiom (efficacy compared to top fin/ systremic absorbtiom etc) could possibly be released on the topical Dut? So I cam make the decision whether to wait for it or to just act now asap amdmake the choice betweem topical fin/dut now without the info ( and maybe switch perscriptions once those are available)?

[Nemiline]

59 minutes ago, Nemiline said:

Thanks for linking me to their library and your podcast I think I have actually dug pretty deep and gone through all the studies. Unfortunately the 4 studies are  of topcical Fin and I have yet to find any on topical Dut, seems like they havn't relased them yet and not sure if Xyon Experience team would provice on request.

Havimg to make the decision whehter to choose the topical fin, or choose topical dut instead, i can't just make the blind assunptiom that topical Dut indeed works better than topical Fin. It seems intuitve that topical dut SHOULD work better and I should go for it asap, since it inhibits type 1+ type 2 5ar and oral verison cut dht by higher amount and oral dut version is also proven to be stronger than oral fin in the literature.

But I cant say for sure for topical dut > topical fin in terms of efficacy as there seems to be not enougb literature out there. Though it has a large molecular size(>500 Dalton's Rule) so it probably won' t get into your bloodstram, downside is it is unclear whether ebough would get into hair folicile to signfiicanr extent/ loeer dht in the tissue  (explained by a Doctor of Pharmacy around 4:00 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cc1MbFDXE7A).

Thus I probably would like to see more data on the fact that topical dut really has a better outcome compared to topical fin perhaps on haircount (oh btw none of the studies relaeased by Hasson on topical fin actually compares the clinical outcome and supports his statement that the topical fin works as well as oral fin though there are studies stating so from others but they are not perfect either I won't go into too much details here) or at least data that it lowers scalp DHT by a larger amount than Finasteride or at least (not rigorous at all but bette than nothing) some comment on clinical observations that topical dut > topical fin like how Dr Hasson mentioned that topical fin seemed to work at least as well as oral fin and has even better efficacy somehow in the frontal area.

Oh and more data about Xyon topical Dut's bloodstream absorptiom and reduction in blood dht is probably improtsnt too, as I don't want too much of that in ny system if not any. it seems logicsl that Dut seems to be causing more side effects than Fin (thoigh doctors argue that they have same side effect profile as fin). Even for oral Fin it seems that besides the reversible sides, there could be long term clinical or subclinical negstive effects for taking it (eg paper by Traish but won'tcite too much here), not to mention the really really rare PFS,  so it would seem prudent to make sure that not much Dut really gets into the blood. I am not sure I would be comfortable enoigh to take oral Dut  at this stage either to put it in perspective though I admit I havnt done enough research on oral Dut.
 

Sorry for all the messy typos btw and I really can't find a way to edit my post.

[RecycleBin]

12 hours ago, arthurSam said:

In the research paper from Xyon there are 10 persons for the test of topical dutasteride and 3 get big  increased of DHT ... Even more than 100% ! The median of suppression is 12% but with very high negative variations and the mean is an increase (not a decrease) of DHT...

I am afraid that it will cause a lot of hair loss for these guys no ? This is not happening when testing finasteride :

You're looking at the data for serum concentration on the topical solutions. The reason why it's not happening on finasteride is because it easily goes systemic therefore you get a decrease in serum DHT levels as shown on Table 7. The data shown for Table 11 seems to be all over the place which is indicative of normal DHT serum fluctuations correlating with testosterone levels. Tests were done 28 days apart so much could've happened in that timeframe the only way to really get good data on topical dut effectiveness is to measure scalp DHT levels. 

[arthurSam]

9 hours ago, Nemiline said:

Thanks for linking the articles, seem like both articles contained info on Xyon topical fin and dut. Unfortunately after a brief skim I canmot find any studies comparing the efficacy between topical fin and topical dut. I will tkae another look tomorrow to make sure. 

And as Melvin mentioned, there coulf also be other stufies done after the patents are applied that is not included anf  are not yet released.

i am curious where you found those documents though?

As for the increase in serum DHT form the topical Dut, I havnt seem this mentioned anywhere else in the literature or other places. My suspect (100% not sure) is that the Dut is not causing that as there are no pathways explaining it. Ive read though that DHT is highly sensitive to other factors so perhaps a change in diet, sleep, or stress levels can cause some fluctuations. i suppose if possible Melvin can ask Dr Hassom this as well.

PS:  is there any info on the approx time in terms of weeks the podcast Q&A or whatever is scheduled so I perhaps expect when more informatiom (efficacy compared to top fin/ systremic absorbtiom etc) could possibly be released on the topical Dut? So I cam make the decision whether to wait for it or to just act now asap amdmake the choice betweem topical fin/dut now without the info ( and maybe switch perscriptions once those are available)?

Hello, I found all these files in google pattent. There are all free.

I also tempted to use topical dut instead of topical fina, my aim is only to get stabilization but I would like to reduce for a maximm the side effects so I am very tempted to try 1x/week topical dut... I think there will be very less side effects than with topical fin but I not very sure...

 

8 hours ago, RecycleBin said:

You're looking at the data for serum concentration on the topical solutions. The reason why it's not happening on finasteride is because it easily goes systemic therefore you get a decrease in serum DHT levels as shown on Table 7. The data shown for Table 11 seems to be all over the place which is indicative of normal DHT serum fluctuations correlating with testosterone levels. Tests were done 28 days apart so much could've happened in that timeframe the only way to really get good data on topical dut effectiveness is to measure scalp DHT levels. 

Yes I think this is the reason... I wrote a mail to xyon to ask them I hope they will reply to me 🙂

[RecycleBin]

1 hour ago, arthurSam said:

Hello, I found all these files in google pattent. There are all free.

I also tempted to use topical dut instead of topical fina, my aim is only to get stabilization but I would like to reduce for a maximm the side effects so I am very tempted to try 1x/week topical dut... I think there will be very less side effects than with topical fin but I not very sure...

 

Yes I think this is the reason... I wrote a mail to xyon to ask them I hope they will reply to me 🙂

I'd definitely ask them to do 1% or lower since its a compounding pharmacy they should be able to accommodate. The daily 2% seems like an overkill for sure if my math is correct that'd be 20mg of duta daily even though its topical seems like too much. Im only on day 4 planning on using it 1x a week and so far I've had none of the side effects oral fin gave me

[Melvin- Admin]

So average ranges of DHT range from 0.38 to 3.27 nmol/L. Just so we understand.

Ok so after reading the results. This is how it’s broken down. 
 
Table 9 is looking at serum concentrations by the hour on day 28. That’s why you’re seeing an increase in serum DHT levels. So 1 hour after application the DHT levels drop than go back up after a 24 hour-period based on this graph. 

But for some their DHT levels are higher after application and gradually decrease after a 24-hour period. This reflects normal day to day fluctuations of testosterone and DHT. 


 

The graph you want to look at is table 10 which tracks DHT serum levels from day 1 hour 0 (baseline) to day 28 hour 24. 

Graph 10 subject 1. He was 1.132 at day 1 0 hours or (baseline). On day 28 (24) hours, his levels were 0.981. A 0.151 difference, which equals 15.1%.  That means his DHT levels decreased by 15% at the end of 28 days. 
 

Only three subjects saw an increase in DHT, which were both still low in the average range. Subject 6 started at 0.317 (below average range) by the end he was at 0.693. Slightly above the 0.38 average. 

Subject 8 baseline was 0.517 by day 28 he was 0.911. Subject 10 started off at 0.928 and ended at 1.118. 

Now if you look at these results at face value you might think, the dut made DHT increase. But I don’t believe thats true, to me, this looks like 3 subjects had no decrease in DHT levels. Their levels fluctuated, as they do normally without any medication. 

For some reason table 11 looks at day 1 4h as the baseline instead of day 1 0h. This skews things, you’ll see some participants levels decreased and some increased after day 1 4 hours, so it makes their increase/decrease look higher. If you look at the baseline day 1 0 hour. You’ll see the differences were negligible. 


 

Overall, the average decrease is around 10-12% depending on whether you look at baseline being 0 hour or 4 hours. This is WAY better than finasteride. No doubt about it. Its not even close. 

[arthurSam]

Yes you right from day 0 it is better you certainly right... good news !

Hope xyon will sell in Europe soon... I think parati have same liposomal gel with silicon but I am not sure... I will receive my fina from them and comparing the ingredients list...

Edited February 1, 2023 by arthurSam

[Melvin- Admin]

8 minutes ago, arthurSam said:

Yes you right from day 0 it is better you certainly right... good news !

Hope xyon will sell in Europe soon... I think parati have same liposomal gel with silicon but I am not sure... I will receive my fina from them and comparing the ingredients list...

I hope it will become available in Europe soon. Can you get dutasteride from Parati? Based on the studies, Dutasteride looks to be a lot better. The changes in serum DHT was very low, in some cases non-existent. 

[arthurSam]

3 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

I hope it will become available in Europe soon. Can you get dutasteride from Parati? Based on the studies, Dutasteride looks to be a lot better. The changes in serum DHT was very low, in some cases non-existent. 

If I got a prescription from my doctor Parati can make it but I need to be sure that the gel is the same from xyon so I can use same dosage... Now I don't know if my doctor will be ok... I have sent all the paper to him to explain the benefits of the xyon duta gel. Wait and see

[BurnieBurns]

9 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

So average ranges of DHT range from 0.38 to 3.27 nmol/L. Just so we understand.

Ok so after reading the results. This is how it’s broken down. 
 
Table 9 is looking at serum concentrations by the hour on day 28. That’s why you’re seeing an increase in serum DHT levels. So 1 hour after application the DHT levels drop than go back up after a 24 hour-period based on this graph. 

But for some their DHT levels are higher after application and gradually decrease after a 24-hour period. This reflects normal day to day fluctuations of testosterone and DHT. 


 

The graph you want to look at is table 10 which tracks DHT serum levels from day 1 hour 0 (baseline) to day 28 hour 24. 

Graph 10 subject 1. He was 1.132 at day 1 0 hours or (baseline). On day 28 (24) hours, his levels were 0.981. A 0.151 difference, which equals 15.1%.  That means his DHT levels decreased by 15% at the end of 28 days. 
 

Only three subjects saw an increase in DHT, which were both still low in the average range. Subject 6 started at 0.317 (below average range) by the end he was at 0.693. Slightly above the 0.38 average. 

Subject 8 baseline was 0.517 by day 28 he was 0.911. Subject 10 started off at 0.928 and ended at 1.118. 

Now if you look at these results at face value you might think, the dut made DHT increase. But I don’t believe thats true, to me, this looks like 3 subjects had no decrease in DHT levels. Their levels fluctuated, as they do normally without any medication. 

For some reason table 11 looks at day 1 4h as the baseline instead of day 1 0h. This skews things, you’ll see some participants levels decreased and some increased after day 1 4 hours, so it makes their increase/decrease look higher. If you look at the baseline day 1 0 hour. You’ll see the differences were negligible. 


 

Overall, the average decrease is around 10-12% depending on whether you look at baseline being 0 hour or 4 hours. This is WAY better than finasteride. No doubt about it. Its not even close. 

Was this with daily application?

[Melvin- Admin]

41 minutes ago, BurnieBurns said:

Was this with daily application?

Yes daily application

[BurnieBurns]

13 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Yes daily application
 

Oh my god that's phenomenal..  I really hope they launch outside North America soon 

This is like a light at the end of the tunnel for side effect sufferers

Edited February 2, 2023 by BurnieBurns

[TorontoMan]

11 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

So average ranges of DHT range from 0.38 to 3.27 nmol/L. Just so we understand.

Ok so after reading the results. This is how it’s broken down. 
 
Table 9 is looking at serum concentrations by the hour on day 28. That’s why you’re seeing an increase in serum DHT levels. So 1 hour after application the DHT levels drop than go back up after a 24 hour-period based on this graph. 

But for some their DHT levels are higher after application and gradually decrease after a 24-hour period. This reflects normal day to day fluctuations of testosterone and DHT. 


 

The graph you want to look at is table 10 which tracks DHT serum levels from day 1 hour 0 (baseline) to day 28 hour 24. 

Graph 10 subject 1. He was 1.132 at day 1 0 hours or (baseline). On day 28 (24) hours, his levels were 0.981. A 0.151 difference, which equals 15.1%.  That means his DHT levels decreased by 15% at the end of 28 days. 
 

Only three subjects saw an increase in DHT, which were both still low in the average range. Subject 6 started at 0.317 (below average range) by the end he was at 0.693. Slightly above the 0.38 average. 

Subject 8 baseline was 0.517 by day 28 he was 0.911. Subject 10 started off at 0.928 and ended at 1.118. 

Now if you look at these results at face value you might think, the dut made DHT increase. But I don’t believe thats true, to me, this looks like 3 subjects had no decrease in DHT levels. Their levels fluctuated, as they do normally without any medication. 

For some reason table 11 looks at day 1 4h as the baseline instead of day 1 0h. This skews things, you’ll see some participants levels decreased and some increased after day 1 4 hours, so it makes their increase/decrease look higher. If you look at the baseline day 1 0 hour. You’ll see the differences were negligible. 


 

Overall, the average decrease is around 10-12% depending on whether you look at baseline being 0 hour or 4 hours. This is WAY better than finasteride. No doubt about it. Its not even close. 

yep.. great interpretation of the data.. just skimmed through the study, the mean serum change after 4 weeks is impressive even if it is only 10 subjects being tested. Would really love if it included a better hair assessment but I'm not sure how much they would gather after 4 weeks anyway 

Edited February 2, 2023 by TorontoMan

[arthurSam]

I have a question regarding the use of dutasteride for a first attempt of traitement in balding.

My idea is that it could be more beneficial to start with the medicine wich is less agressive (so finasteride) and move on duta when fina will stop to work or not work...

Because if you start with duta, when it will no work anymore (perhaps never, perhaps in 1 years ou 3 or... nobody know), there will be nothing more agressive... 

In other point of view duta seem better because less systemic in blood... 

 

What do you think about that ?

Thanks a lot !

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by arthurSam

[Gotitback]

Hey guys, 

I’m about a click away from purchasing the subscription, although was wondering if any of you had insight on the following. 

- Is there any data from Xyon showing how Free and total Testosterone was affected during the study period? 
 

- Is 28 days enough to have a prediction on how dht/total Test would be affected in the long term? Couldn’t the formula build up over time, eventually reaching similar effects to oral fin? 
 

Thank you guys. 

[Melvin- Admin]

16 minutes ago, Gotitback said:

Hey guys, 

I’m about a click away from purchasing the subscription, although was wondering if any of you had insight on the following. 

- Is there any data from Xyon showing how Free and total Testosterone was affected during the study period? 
 

- Is 28 days enough to have a prediction on how dht/total Test would be affected in the long term? Couldn’t the formula build up over time, eventually reaching similar effects to oral fin? 
 

Thank you guys. 

Dutasteride and finasteride have no effects on testosterone both total and free, so testing it wouldn’t make much of a difference. It only inhibits the 5-alpha reductase enzyme that stops the conversion of testosterone into DHT. It doesn’t in anyway inhibit testosterone production. 
 

Dutasteride has a long half life of 5 weeks. Most definitely one month of daily use is enough for it to accumulate and lower your serum DHT levels, especially at 2% which is equivalent to 20mg. It didn’t happen, which is what many speculated given the molecular weight. It appears to stay almost entirely local, with minimal changes to DHT levels after applying. 
 

[Gotitback]

1 minute ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Dutasteride and finasteride have no effects on testosterone both total and free, so testing it wouldn’t make much of a difference. It only inhibits the 5-alpha reductase enzyme that stops the conversion of testosterone into DHT. It doesn’t in anyway inhibit testosterone production. 
 

Dutasteride has a long half life of 5 weeks. Most definitely one month of daily use is enough for it to accumulate and lower your serum DHT levels, especially at 2% which is equivalent to 20mg. It didn’t happen, which is what many speculated given the molecular weight. It appears to stay almost entirely local, with minimal changes to DHT levels after applying. 
 

Very interesting, thank you Melvin for your research and for your involvement in the community. I will update on how everything goes once I begin use. 
 

All the best,

Logan 

[Melvin- Admin]

3 hours ago, arthurSam said:

I have a question regarding the use of dutasteride for a first attempt of traitement in balding.

My idea is that it could be more beneficial to start with the medicine wich is less agressive (so finasteride) and move on duta when fina will stop to work or not work...

Because if you start with duta, when it will no work anymore (perhaps never, perhaps in 1 years ou 3 or... nobody know), there will be nothing more agressive... 

In other point of view duta seem better because less systemic in blood... 

 

What do you think about that ?

Thanks a lot !

 

I used the finasteride for a full month. I got zero side effects. I would say my sex drive increased a little bit, but that could be due to getting better sleep. Based on the studies though, dutasteride seems to be safer in terms of DHT reduction. If you compare the mean DHT reduction was 31% for Finasteride vs. 11% for dutasteride.

[arthurSam]

I am now sure that Parati liposomal formulation is the same as Xyon.

This is how Xyon gel is designed from the paper :

 

and this is the parati formulation :

So we can get Xyon gel in Europe 🙂

Edited February 2, 2023 by arthurSam

[TorontoMan]

5 hours ago, Gotitback said:

Hey guys, 

I’m about a click away from purchasing the subscription, although was wondering if any of you had insight on the following. 

- Is there any data from Xyon showing how Free and total Testosterone was affected during the study period? 
 

- Is 28 days enough to have a prediction on how dht/total Test would be affected in the long term? Couldn’t the formula build up over time, eventually reaching similar effects to oral fin? 
 

Thank you guys. 

If you went ahead with ordering the Xyon Topical Dut product, please consider posting your results on this trial thread:

 

[Gotitback]

17 hours ago, TorontoMan said:

If you went ahead with ordering the Xyon Topical Dut product, please consider posting your results on this trial thread:

Sounds good, the product was ordered today. Although, I wasn’t sure on the frequency I was going to use at the start. I wouldn’t want to mess with the trial thread if the frequency was to be every day use. Nevertheless, I will be tracking my progress and will be changing the dose incrementally. I had experienced sides with oral fin and although this product is light years away and the data is very promising, I want to err on the side of caution. 
Edit: I see frequency does not need to be everyday. I will post in the thread, thanks for creating it. 

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Gotitback

[TorontoMan]

13 hours ago, Gotitback said:

 

Yeah that makes total sense, I will also start at 1x per week and likely build up. Eventually we will get a good sample of guys posting their results and we'll get an idea if we can aggregate what works best for the majority.

[Judelaw]

Has Dr. Hasson mentioned using it alongside daily oral finasteride? I’m not really worried about systemic absorption just unsure if it’s worth the investment.