RU58841 And Topical Anti Androgens

[Midwestkid0324]

Recently I’ve been reading a lot about topical hair loss treatments, specifically RU58841. I’ve come across so many posts online by users who swear by its efficacy. Many argue that it’s a viable anti androgen because it works just as well as Finasteride but with less side effects. What I’m curious about though is if it’s so safe and effective why hasn’t it ever been approved by the FDA? Why hasn’t any company conducted a complete clinical trial on it and attempted to get this out to mass market? If this truly is a safer alternative to Finasteride then pharmaceutical companies would potentially be skipping out on significant financial incentives by not pursuing it. It just seems really suspicious to me. The fact that all of these topicals are considered experimental and non regulated gives me pause. 

I’ve been tempted to use a topical because I can’t come around to taking Fin. I don’t think it’s worth messing with your hormones to keep hair. I don’t knock anyone who does though. I also find the online discourse around Fin to be very one sided with pro Fin people constantly downplaying the experiences of people who have side effects. Even though it works for a large percentage of people there are still many out there who’ve gotten irreversible damage from taking it 
 

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Midwestkid0324

[Westview]

Be careful with RU58841, some users have reported heart problems with it

[Melvin- Admin]

I tried RU58841 years ago, I still got sexual side effects. So if you’re taking it because you’re scared of fins sexual sides, I wouldn’t.

[anotherhairlosssufferer]

Another hair loss forum (googling the phrase will take you there) has a lot more threads around this topic and also around other experimental topicals. Reading the comments about RU is frightening, lots of heart issues, some of them persistent.

> I’ve been tempted to use a topical because I can’t come around to taking Fin. I don’t think it’s worth messing with your hormones to keep hair. 

RU is a whole other level of risk since there's no studies on it and if something goes wrong there's nobody to help you. Not sure if Fin is better in the worst case scenario but at least the sides are known.

> What I’m curious about though is if it’s so safe and effective why hasn’t it ever been approved by the FDA?

Lots of threads about this too. It was abandoned in Phase 1 or Phase 2 and nobody knows why. Not a good sign obviously.

[Curious25]

The forums called hair loss talk  - I don’t think Melvin minds, they don’t have a shred of the understanding surrounding hair transplants as we do on here, however it’s stacked with threads and reviews of all these experimental drugs or topicals, as well as the more mainstream preventative treatments. 
I very rarely visit the site, it strikes me more of an ‘incel’ hang out . . A lot of angry and unhappy younger blokes on those boards. 

[Melvin- Admin]

Yea I have no problem with hair loss talk, think it’s good for experimental treatments. Personally, I would prefer cb-03-01 as it’s been shown through studies to not have sexual side effects. 

That said, how do you know you’ll get sides from fin unless you try it? Out of all the treatments fin is generally the safest since its been around longer and has been studied a lot.

[rj.]

1 hour ago, Melvin-Moderator said:

Yea I have no problem with hair loss talk, think it’s good for experimental treatments. Personally, I would prefer cb-03-01 as it’s been shown through studies to not have sexual side effects. 

That said, how do you know you’ll get sides from fin unless you try it? Out of all the treatments fin is generally the safest since its been around longer and has been studied a lot.

Do you not think that there is significant undisclosed information on fin? Of course those with sides are more likely to be vocal on side effects, but I really do believe this rate of incidents is higher than those early studies. Also, if I remember correctly, the oft stated 2% was based on a short term trial with no long term monitoring. I'm not a conspiracy theorist in the slightest.

Edited March 11, 2021 by rj.

[Melvin- Admin]

36 minutes ago, rj. said:

Do you not think that there is significant undisclosed information on fin? Of course those with sides are more likely to be vocal on side effects, but I really do believe this rate of incidents is higher than those early studies. Also, if I remember correctly, the oft stated 2% was based on a short term trial with no long term monitoring. I'm not a conspiracy theorist in the slightest.

I believe the incidence of side effects is about 10% based on a poll I conducted on this forum. It's still relatively low. 

[Enhancer]

There would be no financial incentive for any company to pursue more studies and FDA approval of RU, its a pretty big investment for a drug that's off patent.  RU has been used by many people on other forums for many years. The good news - none of them are dropping dead.  The bad news - its not any more of an effective treatment in stopping hair loss than what we already have with finasteride.

[rj.]

29 minutes ago, Melvin-Moderator said:

I believe the incidence of side effects is about 10% based on a poll I conducted on this forum. It's still relatively low. 

sounds more likely, not insignificant.

[Melvin- Admin]

48 minutes ago, Enhancer said:

There would be no financial incentive for any company to pursue more studies and FDA approval of RU, its a pretty big investment for a drug that's off patent.  RU has been used by many people on other forums for many years. The good news - none of them are dropping dead.  The bad news - its not any more of an effective treatment in stopping hair loss than what we already have with finasteride.

It's effective, but it still causes side effects, so the question is- is it more effective than fin? No. Does it cause less side effects? In my experience no. 

[HelpfulFriend]

If you're interested, check out Kevin Mann on YT, dude goes reeeeaally deep on hairloss meds, and really knows his shit

[Curious25]

39 minutes ago, HelpfulFriend said:

If you're interested, check out Kevin Mann on YT, dude goes reeeeaally deep on hairloss meds, and really knows his shit

He really doesn’t. Bro science youtubers like him that undermine legitimate medical professionals are quite frankly a danger to young and impressionable viewers. 

[TorontoMan]

18 hours ago, Curious25 said:

The forums called hair loss talk  - I don’t think Melvin minds, they don’t have a shred of the understanding surrounding hair transplants as we do on here, however it’s stacked with threads and reviews of all these experimental drugs or topicals, as well as the more mainstream preventative treatments. 
I very rarely visit the site, it strikes me more of an ‘incel’ hang out . . A lot of angry and unhappy younger blokes on those boards. 

My feeling about Hair Loss Talk too, feels like a bunch of aggrieved children across the entire forum. I wouldn't discredit Kevin Mann entirely though, I've found a lot of his stuff to be true as I've listened to him and then read shit for myself. I guess you should take everything with a grain of salt. 

To the OP, If you're skipping finasteride due to fear of sides but considering RU, that doesnt make much sense. You have many clinical double blinded control studies  to refer to and all of them show the great majority of men tolerate finasteride. RU works in an entirely different mechanism, and binds to AR with a very high affinity. I imagine if guys are using a lot of it, naturally some RU is being pushed to the blood stream, and since it doesnt metabolize easily, it is binding to receptors all over the body, which could explain the chest tightness and heart palps. 

My suggestion is to try finsteride at a very low does and low frequency for a year or more, so that you could get comfortable. In the future you could bump it if you deem necessary. Also like mentioned above, CB is likely a safer alternative to RU and should be the starting point for a Topical AA. You also have it Fluridil which seems to be widely used in Europe. 

[Melvin- Admin]

26 minutes ago, TorontoMan said:

My feeling about Hair Loss Talk too, feels like a bunch of aggrieved children across the entire forum. I wouldn't discredit Kevin Mann entirely though, I've found a lot of his stuff to be true as I've listened to him and then read shit for myself. I guess you should take everything with a grain of salt. 

To the OP, If you're skipping finasteride due to fear of sides but considering RU, that doesnt make much sense. You have many clinical double blinded control studies  to refer to and all of them show the great majority of men tolerate finasteride. RU works in an entirely different mechanism, and binds to AR with a very high affinity. I imagine if guys are using a lot of it, naturally some RU is being pushed to the blood stream, and since it doesnt metabolize easily, it is binding to receptors all over the body, which could explain the chest tightness and heart palps. 

My suggestion is to try finsteride at a very low does and low frequency for a year or more, so that you could get comfortable. In the future you could bump it if you deem necessary. Also like mentioned above, CB is likely a safer alternative to RU and should be the starting point for a Topical AA. You also have it Fluridil which seems to be widely used in Europe. 

I like that Kevin puts bad products like the hairband on blast, but his views on PFS and DHT is just wrong. 

I can understand having the belief that something that is harmless to you couldn’t harm anyone, but that view is arrogant. 

I had a similar view with the whole covid virus. I wasn’t scared of it, got it, and it was like a cold, didn’t affect me. All of the statistics and facts back my feelings. However, statistics mean nothing to the individual person. 

It’s very hard to change perspective, but to deny the existence of a condition with thousands of complaints is pure arrogance and ignorance. Not every person with PFS was unhealthy, just like not everyone who’s died from covid is unhealthy. Both are rare, but can and have happened.

[Curious25]

1 hour ago, TorontoMan said:

My feeling about Hair Loss Talk too, feels like a bunch of aggrieved children across the entire forum. I wouldn't discredit Kevin Mann entirely though, I've found a lot of his stuff to be true as I've listened to him and then read shit for myself. I guess you should take everything with a grain of salt. 

To the OP, If you're skipping finasteride due to fear of sides but considering RU, that doesnt make much sense. You have many clinical double blinded control studies  to refer to and all of them show the great majority of men tolerate finasteride. RU works in an entirely different mechanism, and binds to AR with a very high affinity. I imagine if guys are using a lot of it, naturally some RU is being pushed to the blood stream, and since it doesnt metabolize easily, it is binding to receptors all over the body, which could explain the chest tightness and heart palps. 

My suggestion is to try finsteride at a very low does and low frequency for a year or more, so that you could get comfortable. In the future you could bump it if you deem necessary. Also like mentioned above, CB is likely a safer alternative to RU and should be the starting point for a Topical AA. You also have it Fluridil which seems to be widely used in Europe. 

My issue with Kevin is that he is very one sided in his views, almost to the point of it being extremist - which isn't a healthy stance to hold in any form of discussion, however when you are a non medical professional, discussing a hormone altering drug, it is terribly reckless. You can read all the research studies published and posted online, forums, reviews, whatever - but to think that puts you in an equal position to that of a doctor in terms of being able to recommend strangers who you have never met and will never meet to commit to a life long medication is both arrogant and irresponsible. 

I know that he is not in any way claiming to be a medic, and ultimately people are responsible for their own judgement if they are willing to base their decisions from his video content, however I equally think that he should be more aware of his platform, and how he is obviously now delivering videos from a position of influence. IMO it would be both more ethical and responsible of him, to not even be impartial - I mean his content could still be pro finasteride if that remains his chosen narrative, (just as it is for many hair restoration surgeons), I have no issue with that whatsoever, but with however a more rounded and open approach, at least accepting the potential risks and associated downsides, rather than making shockingly bold statements such as 'DHT is a trash hormone'. I get the whole click bait culture, but it has the potential to be really damaging. Joe Tillman did something similar years ago with a video titled 'pop propecia like candy' or something along those lines, which I equally thought let him down majorly. 

Just a quick FYI - there are threads on REDDIT from 7-8 years back from Kevin on a bodyubuilding forum before he had HT surgery, complaining about not being able to take finasteride, and experiencing continual sexual malfunction. They are legitimately from him, so read into that as you deem fit. 

[Melvin- Admin]

3 minutes ago, Curious25 said:

My issue with Kevin is that he is very one sided in his views, almost to the point of it being extremist - which isn't a healthy stance to hold in any form of discussion, however when you are a non medical professional, discussing a hormone altering drug, it is terribly reckless. You can read all the research studies published and posted online, forums, reviews, whatever - but to think that puts you in an equal position to that of a doctor in terms of being able to recommend strangers who you have never met and will never meet to commit to a life long medication is both arrogant and irresponsible. 

I know that he is not in any way claiming to be a medic, and ultimately people are responsible for their own judgement if they are willing to base their decisions from his video content, however I equally think that he should be more aware of his platform, and how he is obviously now delivering videos from a position of influence. IMO it would be both more ethical and responsible of him, to not even be impartial - I mean his content could still be pro finasteride if that remains his chosen narrative, (just as it is for many hair restoration surgeons), I have no issue with that whatsoever, but with however a more rounded and open approach, at least accepting the potential risks and associated downsides, rather than making shockingly bold statements such as 'DHT is a trash hormone'. I get the whole click bait culture, but it has the potential to be really damaging. Joe Tillman did something similar years ago with a video titled 'pop propecia like candy' or something along those lines, which I equally thought let him down majorly. 

Just a quick FYI - there are threads on REDDIT from 7-8 years back from Kevin on a bodyubuilding forum before he had HT surgery, complaining about not being able to take finasteride, and experiencing continual sexual malfunction. They are legitimately from him, so read into that as you deem fit. 

Yea the DHT trash hormone is nonsense to me. Your body wouldn’t produce a hormone unless it was necessary, even cortisol which has a lot of negative effects is beneficial when needed. 

He appeals to the younger 20-25 year old generation. The guys who look up to bravado and arrogance. I do like some of what he does, especially when it comes to hairguard.

But hopefully he can be more balanced in the future, especially since you are right, he’s influencing a younger generation. I’m pretty sure Kevin’s around my age too. He might be doubling down because it’s making him more popular. 

[TorontoMan]

All great points tbh. I think I was looking at it through my own lens, as for example when he says things like "DHT is a trash hormone" I shrug that sort of nonesense off, but I listen to his interpretations of different scientific literature, whereas yes definitely a younger generation might eat that up. He's definitely bias towards finasteride, and yes I have seen him make comments in the past that he didn't want to take it. I guess there is good and bad to him and everyone else tbh, so you need to decode everything for yourself. On the other side of that spectrum, my doctor knew veryyyy little about hair loss and the effects of finasteride. 

[HelpfulFriend]

Clearly he says some outlandish things, which will be for effect, e.g. "X is a trash hormone" - I was more-so referring to his summary of the literature.

If people cannot be bothered deep-diving on pharmacology, med, or dermatology journals, they can get good summaries from people who spend time looking through the field. When he analyses studies he does it fine, and he is usually correct as he mostly just reports on results.

I work in academia so I have access to scholarly papers, but a lot of people don't.

I wouldn't discredit someone purely because they're jacked and have a unique bro-ish persona.

[Mggm]

@Melvin-Moderator any idea on topical dutasteride going systemic and causing side effects? I am asking this because the hype right now seems to be around this.