Permanent shock loss at 3 years. Any options?

[BlessUp]

Another thing to remember is that the pictures always look better than the human eye sees in person. In person to the human eye it's much more noticable and sticks out

[ZeroMoustafa]

Thanks for the comments and well wishes guys. I really appreciate it and you've definitely given me something to think about.

[Djlazerblue]

Could you come on and explain your side of this situation, this man seems to have suffered life changing side effects at your hands.

 

I understand sometimes these things happen during surgery and the patients are aware there are risks, he appears to be a rare case also, my concerns lay with the aftercare.

 

Why are you charging this man for PRP which in my opinion having had it done myself Is not going to be of no benefit to him at all, if you feel it might help him why not offer him a free session then let him assess if he wants to continue with it?.

 

You have taken money off him he’s been left disfigured I’m sure your not going to be short of work in the near future and due to the exception of this case I feel you could of least given him a free treatment.

 

I’ve seen good work from you so I am in no question you’re a good surgeon, can you please help this patient out and show us your compassion

 

 

Look forward to your response

[Curious]

It looks like a case where the problem is with the patient’s genetics and healing characteristics. I don’t understand why some are so quick to blame the doctor. Stay away from Ketoconazole.

[mikeyhwk]

It looks like a case where the problem is with the patient’s genetics and healing characteristics. I don’t understand why some are so quick to blame the doctor. Stay away from Ketoconazole.

 

I don't buy it. The hairline recovered, that area was more prone than any to permanent shock loss. If he was a poor healer, it was more likely to manifest itself in a poor strip scar, but the scar itself isn't raised, stretched or otherwise bad so healing looks good across the board except that what was cut in the donor never grew back in, that's as clear as it gets that the excision of this strip or the suturing technique caused some sort of issue. If it were just the way he healed it would have presented itself in much more obvious spots, not the strongest hairs on his scalp.

[BlessUp]

I mean does it even matter if it his genetics. The doctors are flying blind. They are responsible for the outcome.They advertise on their sites of normal outcomes and top 5%ers. This is not it obv. If they don't want to take care of bad outcomes when they arise then don't fly blind. Figure out ways to test why certain people heal poorly. Give everyone genome sequencing. Do a test run with 100 fues or a smaller strip and see how it heals idk. But it's on them to make their craft more Efficient not the patient. We pay for results it's on them to produce them or tell us we are more at risk for poor healing because xyz PRIOR to surgery . If not we'll assume we will end up like the people they advertise. They promise the world like it's standard now stand up for your patients that get very supar results. This is a sensitive issue when dealing with people looks and confidants. So it needs to be done right every time. Not trade one problem for another and give you 18k. They came to you to boost their confidants and ended up in same boat. Like i said its a big deal i couldnt pay Lindsey 20k to let me do this to the backside of his head so he should show more empathy backed up with action not words

 

Can't just be like oh well it's "probably " your fault as the patient when guy could be permantly disfigured after sitting in your chair. Any doctor that doesnt offer to fix the rare bad outcome that we objectify agree on for free should be barred from here honestly

 

They are the ones that setup these expectations with their marketing. Now it's time to produce or are they guilty of misleading the public with advertising fraud and hiding the negatives that happen more often than we are to believe to drum up more business. Do what you implicitly promise in your videos and ads and false lighting before and afters. Don't insult him figure out a way to make him happy again for free not 50% off jacked up prp price. That's bushleague offer

Edited November 4, 2017 by BlessUp

[Djlazerblue]

It looks like a case where the problem is with the patient’s genetics and healing characteristics. I don’t understand why some are so quick to blame the doctor. Stay away from Ketoconazole.

 

Was he’s donor fine before he had this surgery? Yes I believe it was, so if the DR is the only one whom has worked in that area where does the blame lay? With the patient? I think not, for a DR to switch blame onto a patient is bad practice, he should accept at least half of that blame for performing the treatment on someone that turns out now was not a candidate in the 1st place, to try and get him to put he’s hand in he’s pocket and pay more money is discraceful, he is a victim and the clinc should be looking after him, that’s my opinion and I’m still waiting to hear DR Lindsay’s response

[Curious]

The things you mentioned were probably disclosed to the patient in writing by way of a consent form that disclosed the risks of poor healing, of scarring, of the risk of shock loss, etc. It is not possible for a doctor to foresee exactly how a transplant will turn out because there are variables beyond the physician's control, just as a doctor that performs a kidney transplant or chemo therapy, cannot guarantee that it will be successful. What did the doctor do in this case that caused damage to the patient's donor, it appears the donor scar is quite good, so the answer is he is probably blameless.

[mikeyhwk]

What did the doctor do in this case that caused damage to the patient's donor, it appears the donor scar is quite good, so the answer is he is probably blameless.

 

that's also not true. You can get a tight scar and still have transected grafts around the strip or blood flow around the strip could have been compromised or too much anaesthesia could have been used which can lead to the same issue, there are any number of dr related errors that can lead to a fine strip scar and this kind of shock loss. Permanent shock loss of healthy hair is very rare, again that the hairs most susceptible to loss remained and the healthiest died out is a pretty clear sign of some sort of error.

[Djlazerblue]

that's also not true. You can get a tight scar and still have transected grafts around the strip or blood flow around the strip could have been compromised or too much anaesthesia could have been used which can lead to the same issue, there are any number of dr related errors that can lead to a fine strip scar and this kind of shock loss. Permanent shock loss of healthy hair is very rare, again that the hairs most susceptible to loss remained and the healthiest died out is a pretty clear sign of some sort of error.

 

Totally agree, I can’t see how someone can say the DR is blamless he is the one who done the surgery, a DR has a duty of care to all he’s patients if things go wrong, so I stress again my point to try and charge this man more money shows DR Lindsay in a bad light

[BlessUp]

They say that in the paperwork but does it have a % next to it. No just says it possible that could me 30% or .001%. The public perception is that it's very low chance tho. We need proper information to make correct decision prior to surgery to weight the risk reward. They need to say what are real life chances it occurs as in percentage. They tell us grafts for fue are 10% less that fut but why not the risk factor %.It's in their best interest to under represent the chances of that occurring because if people knew the real chance they might not get their transplant. They brush over that topic in the consultations and paperwork.

[ZeroMoustafa]

Something mikeyhwk said stuck with me - that too much anesthesia could cause this issue. I looked back over my notes from the day of the operation and saw I had 4-5 rounds of local anesthesia injected. Sorry, I know that's not a lot to go on, but does that sound typical or high?

 

The other thing that concerned me was how long it took for the numbness around the donor area to go away. I felt significant numbness after 12 months, and even at 39 months out (today), my scalp still feels more numb than before. What potential factors could this prolonged numbness be attributed to? Is it a cause for worry beyond the shock loss issue?

[Djlazerblue]

Sounds like you have suffered nerve damage which is common in fut, normally it goes away but can be permanent in rare cases like yours, 4-5 anetestic injections in my opinion is perfectly normal

[JayLDD]

Doctor's responsible whether or not it was due to an obvious mistake, contact the doctor and make him pay for SMP. I doubt this was in the scope of risks listed in the contract, you have been permanently disfigured and he should be happy to cough up damages to attempt to rectify it. On the profits they're making, Lindsey should be HAPPY to help you for free as currently you're a walking sign post screaming "don't go to doctor Lindsey if you don't want this!". Confuses me as to how poorly some doctors understand marketing in this regard.

 

There is no reason to be aggressive or make threats because I genuinely believe this is a freak accident, but you should ask Lindsey to compensate you for an SMP procedure to compensate. If that's not happening, I'd be looking for a lawyer as well as the contract you signed and state law regarding the issue.

 

Stop looking for reasons why it happened as it is likely a freak accident, get the compensation for a corrective procedure you're ethically and likely legally entitled to, and go for SMP.

[Dr. William Lindsey]

Wow. This thread took on a life of its own. I'll respond to a few things but won't be back to check the responses as I've seen these threads really go on and on and on, and get side tracked.

 

First off. I can not comment specifically on any one patient's specific discussion as privacy rules prohibit that, plus, I think most personal issues are best dealt with privately, whether good or bad....Hence I'm not on the forums bantering back and forth like some of my colleagues.

 

Secondly, I don't think that permanent shockloss occurs very often. Particularly when earlier postop views of a patient were to not show it.

 

Thirdly, I do think that some people develop thinning of the donor region...whether or not they have ever had surgery. I recall one of my patients, a few years back...who was vocal on one of the forums...was told by me that he was not a candidate for surgery due to low density. He then sought out H and W...who agreed with me and told him not to proceed. He came back to me angry that I would not operate. And I ended up seeing him about 18 months later when he'd had 2 cases, one strip and one FUE...one by a reputable doctor known to this community...but unfortunately he'd had very little result plus a wide strip scar, plus lots of fue marks.... AND even thinner donor region hair density.

 

Fourth, on all....patients (again I cannot give specifics) I discuss and document this discussion in the chart about donor density and give a range of scar results and tell the patient that they may need 3/4 inch hair FOREVER. I know that I've posted that on 3 forums over the years and in several of my videos. There is never a reason for OUR patient to not be aware of potential scarring. I'm very upfront with everyone on pretty much everything but specifically scarring. Reason being: I've done now 4003 facelifts. I sew well. And I still get 4 crappy scars every year on hair patients. I've said that for 10 years or more online... If I just knew who those guys were preop..... and we every year have one, maybe even 2 guys who don't grow well....and EVERY patient I meet with hears that TWICE. Again if only I knew which person it would be preop....

 

Fifth, patient physiology plays a role in scarring, growth, generalized aging...everything. Now I can hear the collective gasp of many naysayers on the forums that us doctors use that to get out of stuff...but having practiced medicine for 27 years....everyone is different. There are no guarantees...only LIKELYHOODS. And yes, every single one of our patients hears me say that the day of their consultation and on the day of the surgery BEFORE the valium. And its in many of our videos.

 

Sixth, I generally want good results as much as if not more than our patients. I say that because at least half our our patients do not follow our instructions, don't clean well...and who knows what else...I've put up videos of some of the classic examples (patients pulling out grafts etc)....but I do want good results for all of our patients. We do 40 repair cases a year and I am amazed at the low standards of our industry in general. And the skeptics on this and other forum have ample reason to hammer poor results and frankly I don't think many doctors really care...or there would be higher standards. But there would still be cases that either don't grow well for some reason...patient, doctor, or both, and there would still be patients who for some reason lose hair down the road.

 

So to summarize, I do take it personally when folks of ours don't get the results that I want. I can't predict who will thin in the future but the number of patients that happens on is really quite low, but not zero. And EVERY one of our patients hears me say that at least twice. I do think that in general forums like this do help patients to make the best and most informed decisions possible, and despite the occasional doctor bashing...sometimes deserved sometimes not...I think that if every potential patient spent an hour or 2 on the forums before their first consultation with their first doctor, the need for repair work would plummet. But it would not reach zero.

 

Dr. Lindsey

[BlessUp]

All those blocks of text but no resolution. Doesn't matter what happened it matters what we can do moving forward

Are you going to refund some of his money or do a free repair that's all we need to know.

Looks like a no.

 

You agree this is a horrible result as does the community why not fix it. We're not asking you to fix a case unless its extremely poor outcome. He came out worse than when he went it. I mean wtf man you say yourself you only get few bad cases a year why not fix him for free. It's like pulling teeth you greedy fcks. Why lose out on bunch money when people read this thread and don't choose you when you can fix him and people will like that. It's shortsighted and dumb your stance bro unbelievable from someone with 27 years of experience.

[JayLDD]

Agree with the above poster. 95% of people here are smart enough to know that freak accidents or poor results occur even with highly competent doctors like yourself, but most of us would expect that in a case of cosmetic surgery where the person looks worse than when they went in you should be willing to compensate them. Very few people would select a surgeon who was unwilling to fix an issue like this, and there is no reason to because on a regular basis we see doctors who are willing to refund, or compensate for damages caused and required to rectify the issue.

 

On the financial margins cosmetic surgeons work on it isn't as if it's going to be a painful hit to the cashflow statement. If it is, then you need more competent people in charge of the business management aspect of the clinic.

 

Even if this is all part of the contract and emphasised to the patient beforehand, it doesn't make avoiding compensating in instances such as these any more ethical or sensible from a clinic marketing perspective.

 

"I say that because at least half our our patients do not follow our instructions, don't clean well...and who knows what else...I've put up videos of some of the classic examples (patients pulling out grafts etc)...."

 

It's nice to give doctors the benefit of the doubt because it's their career, their ass on the line and the majority of doctors want to do good work and please people, but this type of comment makes it very hard. How would you even KNOW that half your patients don't follow instructions? Oh that's right, you wouldn't because that is a blatantly made up statistic and impossible for you to know. Easier to blame patients though and not cough up compensation than accept that your staff and yourself are not infallible, just like everyone else.

[Djlazerblue]

Thanks for the response DR I totally agree with most of what you have said and I know you don’t want to continue this post, I was hoping you would of answered my concern that your trying to charge this man for a SMP session, would it not be right in the case which you agree is rare to offer h8ma free treatment?

[MayiraP0chu]

This is one part I never understood as a hair consumer myself or otherwise. At the risk of incurring brickbats, I do not agree with patients asking for a refund or a freebie, every time when he or she does not get a result he or she considers satisfactory. I have seen a whole lot of members, innumerable times in this forum either advocating or endorsing this unjustifiable dogma.

 

Why should Dr. Lindsey give a discount or a free procedure?

 

1. Was he found to be negligent while he conducted this surgery?

2. Was he found to have made a mistake in the surgery skill wise or otherwise?

3. Did he promise a result that he could not deliver?

 

Unless Dr. Linsey was found out on any of the three counts above, I do not see a case morally or legally.

 

Consider this.

 

My mum recently had a knee replacement surgery. 3 days PostOp, she was in a real bad state. Weakness, nausea, dizziness and finally lost her sense of space and reality. Shit was crazy! We rushed her to the hospital. It was found that she was losing blood internally because the surgeon had sutured a vein along with the skin when he closed up.

 

Now, this is a classic example of the surgeon's liability. It is his mistake that resulted in this unsavoury episode. Here, you can hold the doctor responsible and demand compensation. My mum has recovered now. She walks very well. The surgery is a success.

 

Assume there was no error in suturing and the surgery was completely error free and the PostOp was a breeze, only to find out the knee din't respond well as hoped and the surgery was not a success. Can I ask for compensation here?

 

Absolutely not!

 

Because, not all knee surgeries can be a success. Much like any other surgery. Be it heart or hair. Every surgery has a certain probabilistic chance of a failure. We already knew and were told by the surgical team of the possible outcomes of the surgery in detail. So, we would have had no merit morally or legally in demanding a compensation.

 

When you won't ask for a refund if a heart transplant din't turn out as expected, why should a hair transplant be any different?

 

Jean, above here says he 'expects' cosmetic surgeons to compensate if the outcome is not desirable. Why do you expect that? Who made it the norm? Just because its the norm, does it make it an obligation?

 

Lets say I go to a restaurant. Am I obligated to tip the server? Everyone here will agree I am expected to tip the server. It is nice to tip. But, am I obligated to tip?

 

Absolutely not!

 

I’m a chronic over-tipper, so shouldn’t the server refuse my money if the service wasn’t extraordinary? Philosophically, I don’t think one can have it both ways. Either the money is intrinsically tied to performance or it’s not.

 

When a surgery is a success, do any of us pay the surgeon extra money other than the fees we ve already agreed to/paid? If we do, then I see a fair point in asking for compensation when there is a failure.

 

This is not just about medical industry. No industry will or is obligated to compensate, unless the resulting unsavoury condition is because of their implicit mistake or false promises.

 

My dad is a lawyer. No client in his 40 years of practice has ever asked for a refund when he lost a case. No profession or business can run that way. It's as simple as that.

 

I believe it all comes down to an individual s philosophy on how to conduct his business. If the doctor is willing to compensate an undesirable outcome, excellent! Thumbs up to that! But, when one doesn't, it doesn't make him any lesser man. It's a free world. No one is being force fed. Choose the philosophy you buy into. The choice has always been yours!

 

Forums like HRN are an amazing platform to learn and share. By crying wolf all the time, we might put legitimate claims for compensation in danger.

 

 

PS:

 

ZeroMoustafa,

 

I am sorry if my post seems insensitive and unwarranted when you are suffering. It was more of a generic address than specific to your particular case. I just used Dr. Linsey as an example. Your donor state is much worse than what it was before going in to the surgery. If I was the surgeon, I will take full responsibility and try and fix it the best I can for free, even if your condition was not a result of my incompetence. But, thats just me.

 

I am sorry you ve had complications in your surgery. I wish you a speedy resolution.

 

Cheers!

Edited November 27, 2017 by MayiraP0chu

[JayLDD]

This is one part I never understood as a hair consumer myself or otherwise. At the risk of incurring brickbats, I do not agree with patients asking for a refund or a freebie, every time when he or she does not get a result he or she considers satisfactory. I have seen a whole lot of members, innumerable times in this forum either advocating or endorsing this unjustifiable dogma.

 

Why should Dr. Lindsey give a discount or a free procedure?

 

1. Was he found to be negligent while he conducted this surgery?

2. Was he found to have made a mistake in the surgery skill wise or otherwise?

3. Did he promise a result that he could not deliver?

 

Unless Dr. Linsey was found out on any of the three counts above, I do not see a case morally or legally.

 

Consider this.

 

My mum recently had a knee replacement surgery. 3 days PostOp, she was in a real bad state. Weakness, nausea, dizziness and finally lost her sense of space and reality. Shit was crazy! We rushed her to the hospital. It was found that she was losing blood internally because the surgeon had sutured a vein along with the skin when he closed up.

 

Now, this is a classic example of the surgeon's liability. It is his mistake that resulted in this unsavoury episode. Here, you can hold the doctor responsible and demand compensation. My mum has recovered now. She walks very well. The surgery is a success.

 

Assume there was no error in suturing and the surgery was completely error free and the PostOp was a breeze, only to find out the knee din't respond well as hoped and the surgery was not a success. Can I ask for compensation here?

 

Absolutely not!

 

Because, not all knee surgeries can be a success. Much like any other surgery. Be it heart or hair. Every surgery has a certain probabilistic chance of a failure. We already knew and were told by the surgical team of the possible outcomes of the surgery in detail. So, we would have had no merit morally or legally in demanding a compensation.

 

When you won't ask for a refund if a heart transplant din't turn out as expected, why should a hair transplant be any different?

 

Jean, above here says he 'expects' cosmetic surgeons to compensate if the outcome is not desirable. Why do you expect that? Who made it the norm? Just because its the norm, does it make it an obligation?

 

Lets say I go to a restaurant. Am I obligated to tip the server? Everyone here will agree I am expected to tip the server. It is nice to tip. But, am I obligated to tip?

 

Absolutely not!

 

I’m a chronic over-tipper, so shouldn’t the server refuse my money if the service wasn’t extraordinary? Philosophically, I don’t think one can have it both ways. Either the money is intrinsically tied to performance or it’s not.

 

When a surgery is a success, do any of us pay the surgeon extra money other than the fees we ve already agreed to/paid? If we do, then I see a fair point in asking for compensation when there is a failure.

 

This is not just about medical industry. No industry will or is obligated to compensate, unless the resulting unsavoury condition is because of their implicit mistake or false promises.

 

My dad is a lawyer. No client in his 40 years of practice has ever asked for a refund when he lost a case. No profession or business can run that way. It's as simple as that.

 

I believe it all comes down to an individual s philosophy on how to conduct his business. If the doctor is willing to compensate an undesirable outcome, excellent! Thumbs up to that! But, when one doesn't, it doesn't make him any lesser man. It's a free world. No one is being force fed. Choose the philosophy you buy into. The choice has always been yours!

 

Forums like HRN are an amazing platform to learn and share. By crying wolf all the time, we might put legitimate claims for compensation in danger.

 

 

PS:

 

ZeroMoustafa,

 

I am sorry if my post seems insensitive and unwarranted when you are suffering. It was more of a generic address than specific to your particular case. I just used Dr. Linsey as an example. Your donor state is much worse than what it was before going in to the surgery. If I was the surgeon, I will take full responsibility and try and fix it the best I can for free, even if your condition was not a result of my incompetence. But, thats just me.

 

I am sorry you ve had complications in your surgery. I wish you a speedy resolution.

 

Cheers!

 

That's all fine and dandy, but I and I'm sure others will recommend that any doctor who isn't willing to rectify out of the norm damage with compensation should be avoided.

 

If a patient ended up with necrosis would you say it isn't the doctors responsibility to deal with it? Necrosis happens with the best of them, I've seen it with Erdogan, Hasson, and Rahal for example. Not something that is deliberate, but are you really saying that complications shouldn't be dealt with by the doctor?

 

You can believe this idiocy all you like, I and no other person who is sane will go to a doctor who takes no responsibility for complications arising out of their work, whether or not it is a legal issue. It's immoral on the amount of earnings transplant clinics earn and it's horrific marketing.

 

"Jean, above here says he 'expects' cosmetic surgeons to compensate if the outcome is not desirable. Why do you expect that? Who made it the norm? Just because its the norm, does it make it an obligation? "

 

I also didn't say this, go back to primary school reading comprehension class buddy. Try not to make yourself also sound like an illiterate when you're being blatantly insensitive and illogical too.

 

I said "expect that in a case of cosmetic surgery where the person looks worse than when they went in you should be willing to compensate them."

 

That clearly isn't the same as "outcome that is not desireable." Surprised that the son of a lawyer (maybe not a great one) doesn't know how to be objective when analysing the facts of a case.

 

"Why do you expect that? Who made it the norm? Just because its the norm, does it make it an obligation?"

 

I expect it because plenty of high grade surgeons recommended on this site for example have offered refunds, compensation and a willingness to help those who undergo complications or poor results. Because of that, I would strongly recommend that everyone avoid going to a doctor who isn't willing to provide reasonable post-op service when there are a range of those who ARE willing to help. It's purely a marketing and ethics issue, but often also a legal one if the patient underwent complications that were not expressed prior to the surgery.

 

But yes it's a free world, you can choose to go with surgeons who are unethical and don't stand behind their work despite being able to afford to do so, I will recommend everyone not do so, and point them do doctors who do stand behind their work. And there are many of them.

 

By the way I'm not using Lindsey as an example of an unethical doctor in saying this, this is a private situation and we don't know the full details but certainly from a marketing perspective it would be smart to publicly rectify the situation on the forum.

[MayiraP0chu]

"Jean, above here says he 'expects' cosmetic surgeons to compensate if the outcome is not desirable. Why do you expect that? Who made it the norm? Just because its the norm, does it make it an obligation? "

 

I also didn't say this, go back to primary school reading comprehension class buddy. Try not to make yourself also sound like an illiterate when you're being blatantly insensitive and illogical too.

 

I said "expect that in a case of cosmetic surgery where the person looks worse than when they went in you should be willing to compensate them."

 

That clearly isn't the same as "outcome that is not desireable." Surprised that the son of a lawyer (maybe not a great one) doesn't know how to be objective when analysing the facts of a case.

 

Exactly!

 

Humans make mistakes. Even the best of them. It is how you handle them defines who you are. If you had made such a mistake, I would have quoted you and myself and would have said a simple ‘I think you have misread/misunderstood what I meant‘. I would have been sober and mild about it.

 

It was a bait! I made that mistake by choice. That is primarily why I highlighted your name in bold, as I knew you will come swinging at me with all the aggression you got, like I ve seen you in previous occasions. That doesn’t mean you are a stupid boy. I think you are a very smart kid. You have a great head over your shoulders at a very young age, who handled a tricky operation aplomb with some solid ground work.

 

People are different!

 

I am sure you read my ‘PS’ as well. I have said, ‘your donor state is much worse than what it was before going in to the surgery’ and so I will take full responsibility. That is basically what you are expecting the doctor to do too. We both have the same understanding of the situation. Only, the way we approach it is different.

 

The point I am trying to make is, people are different. There are always different approaches and outcomes to the same situation. Same applies to the doctors as well.

 

I was about to cite a horrible necrosis case we all saw recently as an example of doctor’s liability, which begs not just a refund but beyond that. But, if you go around the forum, majority or almost all of the refund cries are for poor growth. And, there lies my gripe. It has set a dangerous precedent. If we had not done that, Dr. Lindsey, whether it was his mistake or not, would probably have fixed ZeroMoustafa for free without batting an eyelid. Like I said, when you cry wolf all the time, there will be no help when the wolf comes for real one day.

Edited November 28, 2017 by MayiraP0chu

[Mick50]

We all know permanent donor shock loss is not common, any doctor will tell you that , also anyone who has spent time on this forum knows the difference between a case where the patient's expectations were too high and he/she had a perfectly acceptable outcome for example, yet is still unhappy and in complaining mode

to a patient who has a genuine reason to feel hard done by.

If these unfortunate cases where the patient suffers permanent shock loss in the donor , pitting in the recipient etc are not common as the top docs claim, then I agree with Jean LDD it makes sense from a marketing point of view they stand by their work and do whatever they can to rectify the situation

Morally , well one would hope a recommended doctor on this site wouldn't need to much advice regarding the right thing to do.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Mick50

[mikeyhwk]

We all know permanent donor shock loss is not common, any doctor will tell you that , also anyone who has spent time on this forum knows the difference between a case where the patient's expectations were too high and he/she had a perfectly acceptable outcome for example, yet is still unhappy and in complaining mode

to a patient who has a genuine reason to feel hard done by.

If these unfortunate cases where the patient suffers permanent shock loss in the donor , pitting in the recipient etc are not common as the top docs claim, then I agree with Jean LDD it makes sense from a marketing point of view they stand by their work and do whatever they can to rectify the situation

Morally , well one would hope a recommended doctor on this site wouldn't need to much advice regarding the right thing to do.

 

this.

 

I'm shocked to see Mayiras post, what a load of garbage. Sorry I can usually hide my contempt a little better than this but to belittle the memberships ability to distinguish a horrible result vs a guy who didn't get his native hair density back is a joke. The idea that we're all just screaming refund every time a patient doesn't get a home run is absurd. In cases where the result is absolutely non existent or in this case creating a whole other problem it is absolutely reasonable to expect a dr who cares for his patients and his own work to make that right. Whether they do or not is their choice of course as it would be for us to not use them based on their actions with clients but to call out a sub par result as being sub par is what we do here, we give the drs lots of respect when they deliver a good result and those comments lead to their getting patients, it works the other way as well. I just want to make it clear I am not saying anything negative about Dr Lindsey, I understand he made it clear that he would not speak specifics of this case so I hope he and the op find some way to resolve this issue and I hope we hear back from the op that this is resolved but I applaud every guy in here who comes into a thread like this and says this wasn't good enough and that the dr should make this right. If a dr isn't motivated morally to do make it right then hopefully our voices can stir them to action. Most of us pick a doctor not only based on the results they can deliver but in how they handle cases that don't go ideally, you want to know your doctors on your side.

[jjsrader]

Lindsey is not particularly artistic, charges at the very highest end for fut & is a bit of a prick in my opinion.

 

So he'll do what he wants to do. Making that D.C. money. He should stick w/doing facelifts and other cosmetic work on women. That's his comfort zone anyways.

[MayiraP0chu]

I wrestled with myself if I should write here again. I am not liking arguments as I used to, healthy or otherwise. I am growing old and being political for the last 7 years has taken its toll. I am too tired.

 

But, then....Jesus F Christ!!

 

I knew I was going to get brickbats as anyone gets, when one goes against the establishment and a popular notion. But, I din't think I would be this misunderstood. Either, I write piss poorly or you guys are just looking at the surface and not actually looking into what I am saying. This is a classic case of a Jackfruit. I guess Il have to peel my post and the outer thorny layer one by one for you guys to see the well intentioned fruit I had inside.

 

Whether they do or not is their choice of course as it would be for us to not use them based on their actions with clients but to call out a sub par result as being sub par is what we do here, we give the drs lots of respect when they deliver a good result and those comments lead to their getting patients, it works the other way as well.

 

Giving respect and appreciation to a job well done is fine. But, respect to a fellow human is paramount.

 

I could have written my piece in any other 'undeserved, poor growth' refund thread. I had a lot of times in the past started writing and dropped it to avoid conversations exactly like this. I was forced to finally write here, in this thread, after seeing this post from BlessUP.

 

All those blocks of text but no resolution. Doesn't matter what happened it matters what we can do moving forward

Are you going to refund some of his money or do a free repair that's all we need to know.

Looks like a no.

 

You agree this is a horrible result as does the community why not fix it. We're not asking you to fix a case unless its extremely poor outcome. He came out worse than when he went it. I mean wtf man you say yourself you only get few bad cases a year why not fix him for free. It's like pulling teeth you greedy fcks. Why lose out on bunch money when people read this thread and don't choose you when you can fix him and people will like that. It's shortsighted and dumb your stance bro unbelievable from someone with 27 years of experience.

 

This is disgraceful! This is no way to talk to anyone let alone to a stranger, a doctor and someone with whom you have no business with. This is plain bullying and harassment.

 

This is why I went a bit specific and wrote this part. Otherwise, my post was addressed in general towards the practice of asking for refunds for unsatisfactory growth.

 

Why should Dr. Lindsey give a discount or a free procedure?

 

1. Was he found to be negligent while he conducted this surgery?

2. Was he found to have made a mistake in the surgery skill wise or otherwise?

3. Did he promise a result that he could not deliver?

 

Unless Dr. Linsey was found out on any of the three counts above, I do not see a case morally or legally.

 

I also didn't say this, go back to primary school reading comprehension class buddy. Try not to make yourself also sound like an illiterate when you're being blatantly insensitive and illogical too.

 

I said "expect that in a case of cosmetic surgery where the person looks worse than when they went in you should be willing to compensate them."

 

That clearly isn't the same as "outcome that is not desireable." Surprised that the son of a lawyer (maybe not a great one) doesn't know how to be objective when analysing the facts of a case.

 

Jean has already called me illiterate, insensitive, illogical and my father a substandard lawyer. My poor father unnecessarily dragged in the mud for merely citing him as an example to make a point. Before anyone calls me a shill and a doctor's rep,

 

Bachelors in computer science, Masters in computer science, A Commercial Pilot flying the 737's, I am anything but illiterate. Neither do I have the need or the time to shill for anyone.

 

If you have read my 'PS' in my first post, you'l know I am anything but insensitive.

 

And that post was anything but illogical.

 

If anything was illogical, it was this.

 

Surprised that the son of a lawyer (maybe not a great one) doesn't know how to be objective when analysing the facts of a case.

 

A lawyer's son automatically inherits his father's abilities in judging a case? Since when did law get genetically transferred? A mathematics teacher's son has to be great at mathematics then?

 

I could have said all this when I replied to Jean earlier, but, thats not the way I operate. I don't mud sling. More than how many degrees you ve got next to your name, I believe in being honest, compassionate and respectful. I believe I am more of a literate because of that. Besides, I set Jean up by deliberately making that mistake so I can prove him my point. I am not mad at him. I have no problems with him whatsoever.

 

The other reason I wrote this piece here is because, I think Moustafa's is a genuine case that deserves a free fix by any standards. My 'PS' was a key part in that post. Looks like it was conveniently forgotten, which clearly shows my sentiments on this case and how I feel this is a meritorious claim.

 

PS:

 

ZeroMoustafa,

 

I am sorry if my post seems insensitive and unwarranted when you are suffering. It was more of a generic address than specific to your particular case. I just used Dr. Linsey as an example. Your donor state is much worse than what it was before going in to the surgery. If I was the surgeon, I will take full responsibility and try and fix it the best I can for free, even if your condition was not a result of my incompetence. But, thats just me.

 

I am sorry you ve had complications in your surgery. I wish you a speedy resolution.

 

Cheers!

 

The following quotes too share the same sentiments of how I feel this is a deserved case.

 

By crying wolf all the time, we might put legitimate claims for compensation in danger.

 

But, if you go around the forum, majority or almost all of the refund cries are for poor growth. And, there lies my gripe. It has set a dangerous precedent. If we had not done that, Dr. Lindsey, whether it was his mistake or not, would probably have fixed ZeroMoustafa for free without batting an eyelid. Like I said, when you cry wolf all the time, there will be no help when the wolf comes for real one day.

 

And since when did we become more invested in protecting the doctor's establishment and business? I think it is safe to say Dr. Lindsey or any another doctor for that matter cares more about protecting their business than us.

 

If these unfortunate cases where the patient suffers permanent shock loss in the donor , pitting in the recipient etc are not common as the top docs claim, then I agree with Jean LDD it makes sense from a marketing point of view they stand by their work and do whatever they can to rectify the situation

 

On the profits they're making, Lindsey should be HAPPY to help you for free as currently you're a walking sign post screaming "don't go to doctor Lindsey if you don't want this!". Confuses me as to how poorly some doctors understand marketing in this regard.

 

this.

If a dr isn't motivated morally to do make it right then hopefully our voices can stir them to action.

 

When these kind of statements get repeated, they sound more like a thinly veiled threat than being a harmless observation. If they are indeed harmless observations, then my apologies.

 

I'm shocked to see Mayiras post, what a load of garbage. Sorry I can usually hide my contempt a little better than this but to belittle the memberships ability to distinguish a horrible result vs a guy who didn't get his native hair density back is a joke. The idea that we're all just screaming refund every time a patient doesn't get a home run is absurd.

 

Misunderstood again! Why do you take offence Mikey? I never said all the members indulge in this practice. There are threads where quite a few members advocate or endorse a refund. There are threads, where only one or two who shouts for a refund. There are threads where only the thread starter looks for a refund, while the rest shoot him down as he doesn't have a case. There is one even in today's posts. So, I was never questioning the collective ability of the memberships to see objectively. But, a lot of people's minds are infested with this thought of refund as a fall back. As a safety net. There are people who start thinking on those lines even before they get their procedure done. Yes, we are paying big bucks. But, that doesn't justify a refund for unsatisfactory growth. I don't believe in compensation for unsatisfactory growth. Search 'refunds' and 'discounts' and see for yourselves how many such posts are lying out there. My whole post was to point that, because of those posts and complaints and harassment of the doctors, genuine cases like Moustafa's doesn't get its fair due.

 

Mikey, Jean, Mick - I have nothing against you guys. I quoted you guys to just put my point across. Nothing more.

 

Finally, let me make this clear in simple, plain English.

 

Through my post, I was indirectly appealing to Dr. Lindsey's guilt and humanity. And, I strongly believe the chances of the doctor changing his stance is high reading my post than BlessUp's. I have great respect for Dr. Lindsey, for his work and as a person and I implore him to consider my/our plea.

 

This took some considerable time off my evening, when I could have chilled with a couple of cold beers after 8 hours of flying. I will not be indulging in anymore discussions. I consider this subject closed.

Edited November 29, 2017 by MayiraP0chu