Clinic claiming weird stuff! Must read!

[hsrp10]

Milo,

 

The higher the number of recipient incisions that are made within a defined surface area, say 1 cm2, the more relative trauma there will be. And whenever the level of trauma is raised, the corresponding level of yield decreases. Now I know there are variables within this statement but the principle in practice is true. And what a waste of grafts!....:eek:

 

Do you have any idea what the area would look like to even fit 100 - 120 incisions? That's absurd. Even using a micro-sized blade, it would be nearly impossible if at all possible, even on a completely bald area.

 

But as I stated before, that level of density is unfounded and not necessary, celebrity or not. So to communicate that to a prospective new patient should sound a thousand bells within your realm of sound reasoning. Think about that.

 

And too many times the conversation centers around numbers (density) when all of the individual's hair characteristics should be considered in the restoration plan, namely the degree of coarseness of the hair shafts. That factor supercedes the numbers by a long shot.

 

Anything over 80 is absurd to start with, and only someone like Milo / SMS7000 / Taurisrisen would continue to pursue it.

 

Gillenator,

I wouldn't even waste your time to explain it to this guy, he's obsessed with extreme density and will continue to argue about it under various alias forever apparently.

[Al - Moderator]

Given his high dense pack grafts I wonder how Dr. Baubac is able to churn out many great looking successful results. The fact he is considered credible to some here is very strange indeed!

 

It's not necessarily hard to dense pack grafts. This is exactly what Armani was known for, so I imagine if this clinic is an Armani associated clinic then they most likely have the same strategy, which is to dense pack young guys who have minimal hair loss with 4000 or so grafts in the hairline. It looks great when it first grows in, but what happens in a few years when they lose more hair and have already run out of donor after 2 sessions of 7000 total grafts in the first 3 inches of an extremely low, youthful hairline? Can dense packing the front be done? Yes. Should it be done? Most of the time, no.

 

Everyone only has a certain amount of grafts that can be used. The more you dense pack them into a smaller area, the less area you can cover. There's no way to get around that fact. These days you can use beard and chest hair to get you more grafts, so your total available amount of grafts may be higher now, but there is still a finite number.

 

If you are planning on eventually using beard and chest hair down the road, then I suggest you use some from the beginning and mix it in with head hair grafts. This way you will get further along before running out of head hair grafts and then resorting to putting all body grafts in one area. For example you don't want the fontal third to be all head grafts and the mid and crown to be all body grafts. The texture and density will be different.

[milo12]

Anything over 80 is absurd to start with, and only someone like Milo / SMS7000 / Taurisrisen would continue to pursue it.

 

Gillenator,

I wouldn't even waste your time to explain it to this guy, he's obsessed with extreme density and will continue to argue about it under various alias forever apparently.

 

If you are here to accuse others of false facts like a 12 year old do not waste our time. People are here to get help and learn. The last thing we all need is a troll.

 

On my other threads you replied properly. But on this one you reply immaturely. Do us all a favor and do not visit my threads now and in the future.

 

If you are stuck with a bad transplant do not blame the rest of us for wanting to get a densely packed one.

 

 

It's not necessarily hard to dense pack grafts. This is exactly what Armani was known for, so I imagine if this clinic is an Armani associated clinic then they most likely have the same strategy, which is to dense pack young guys who have minimal hair loss with 4000 or so grafts in the hairline. It looks great when it first grows in, but what happens in a few years when they lose more hair and have already run out of donor after 2 sessions of 7000 total grafts in the first 3 inches of an extremely low, youthful hairline? Can dense packing the front be done? Yes. Should it be done? Most of the time, no.

 

Everyone only has a certain amount of grafts that can be used. The more you dense pack them into a smaller area, the less area you can cover.

.

 

Hello BeHappy,

 

It is good to hear from mature and intelligent adults like yourself who invest their time helping others without insults. Appreciate it greatly. Thank you for your reply. Just to let you know this is not one of those smaller armani clinics. It is the one in Beverly Hills managed by Baubac.

 

I understand your explanation with the future risks in dense packing. But if you think about it other reputable clinics also employ the same strategy for dense packing. Don't they also run the risk of depleting the donor area for future needs?

 

IMHO I agree with you and I think dense packing can be done but only on those with enough donor hair to future-proof future shedding. What do you think about this?

[HairDew]

IMHO I agree with you and I think dense packing can be done but only on those with enough donor hair to future-proof future shedding. What do you think about this?

Milo,

 

The amount of available grafts in reserve is not the reason to pack 100 per cm2. Future hairloss is hard to predict on a young guy (if he doesn't have an aggressive hair loss in his teens and 20s). Even when people look at their moms/dads side of relatives, they might end up losing more hair than their ancestors. There is no proved science to exactly estimate how much hair you would lose. Yes, you can make an estimated guess and still fall short. Then in your later years you will have a "packed" tuft in the front and nothing behind it. It would look just weird. That's why doctors have to account for the future.

 

To be honest, Armani was always hit or miss for me. When he did FUT years ago, he did produce incredible results. As soon as he switched to FUE only, the results were not consistent. Some turn out great (mind you on guys who are 24-27 years old). But I have seen cases where he dense packed 4000 grafts into the front third on a 20 something and it looked see-through. So always think ahead.

 

Just my $0.02

[hsrp10]

If you are here to accuse others of false facts like a 12 year old do not waste our time. People are here to get help and learn. The last thing we all need is a troll.

 

On my other threads you replied properly. But on this one you reply immaturely. Do us all a favor and do not visit my threads now and in the future.

 

If you are stuck with a bad transplant do not blame the rest of us for wanting to get a densely packed one.

 

 

 

 

Hello BeHappy,

 

It is good to hear from mature and intelligent adults like yourself who invest their time helping others without insults. Appreciate it greatly. Thank you for your reply. Just to let you know this is not one of those smaller armani clinics. It is the one in Beverly Hills managed by Baubac.

 

I understand your explanation with the future risks in dense packing. But if you think about it other reputable clinics also employ the same strategy for dense packing. Don't they also run the risk of depleting the donor area for future needs?

 

IMHO I agree with you and I think dense packing can be done but only on those with enough donor hair to future-proof future shedding. What do you think about this?

 

Formerly banned abusive and combative user Milo, Taurisrisen, SMS7000,

You're not fooling me or anyone by changing your IP or using a Proxy, you've already been outed,

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/185982-best-ny-based-surgeons-2.html

follow his posts below. He got banned and then kept creating alias's to get back on. Some of his posts got deleted by the Moderators as they were homophobic and nasty. Bottom line is he has been wondering around this forum for years and years chasing the perfect surgeon who will give him full density, yet won't actually pull the trigger. He used to be obsessed with Rahal, but recently turned on him. Probably because Rahal turned him away. Read the posts below and compare him and his alias's to Milo. I think it's the same guy.

 

You will notice the following themes:

 

1) any procedure or surgeon that does not provide perfect density is a failure

2) anyone who disagrees with him is a troll. Milo has been more restrained, but has referenced to trolls and trolling

3) see his obsession with hair products and other natural remedies to prevent hair loss

4) he creates multiple threads asking a multitude of questions, but seems to be all over the place and nowhere close to actually committing to one surgeon and pulling the trigger

 

Hair Restoration Social Network ? Community for and by Hair Loss Patients - taurusrisen's Profile

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/181873-hair-loss-killing-my-holiday-spirit.html

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/182045-conflict-time-between-hair-transplant-work.html

 

Hair Restoration Social Network ? Community for and by Hair Loss Patients - glenalm's Profile

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/184594-top-10-docs-give-same-quality-hair-transplant-so-doesnt-matter-who-you-go.html

 

Get a HT, post some pics and stop wasting people's time.

[gillenator]

I forgot to mention something that is critical. The only way to prove or substantiate these high levels of grafted density is to prove how much of the regrowth occurred and stayed. It's called yield verification.

 

That's not hard to do. You simply use a telescopic video camera and take high quality pics of the recipient area before any grafts are added....document the defined surface area's density and then afterwards (post-op). As the regrowth manifests in the coming months, again, you simply take more high resolution pics and count how many grafts actually grew. No claims, verification only please!

 

At 12 months post-op, another final count is taken and then and only then can the actual yield be verified. And it must be verified by a third party not employed by the clinic making these ridiculous claims.

 

Just watch and see how many of these cases actually get verified. These claims can blow all of the smoke they want but the proof is in the photos, something called independent clinical verification.

 

Ain't gonna happen and as the ole' saying goes... "Put up or shut up"...:confused:

[milo12]

Milo,

 

To be honest, Armani was always hit or miss for me. When he did FUT years ago, he did produce incredible results. As soon as he switched to FUE only, the results were not consistent. Some turn out great (mind you on guys who are 24-27 years old). But I have seen cases where he dense packed 4000 grafts into the front third on a 20 something and it looked see-through.

 

Hello HairDew,

 

Thank you for such an informative view. This is making me second think seeing armani, even confused about seeing him or not. What does not make sense is why armani did not stick with his original formula (FUT) that made them a superstar in the industry. Had they not switched to FUE they would've been branded the emperor of hair transplants. It is very disappointing.

 

Perhaps when I call them and inquire just for info sake, I may request FUT. But I would not count on it since I read they only work with FUE. But there is that chance.

 

Looked at many results of Baubac's transplants from last year...........

Hair Transplant / Hair Restoration Surgery Results - Hair Loss Forums

 

When you consider all these amazing results you can see why I am tempted to going to Baubac. But I am cautious also. Feller looks good to me I admit.

[milo12]

I forgot to mention something that is critical. The only way to prove or substantiate these high levels of grafted density is to prove how much of the regrowth occurred and stayed. It's called yield verification.

 

And it must be verified by a third party not employed by the clinic making these ridiculous claims.

 

Just watch and see how many of these cases actually get verified.

 

Hello gillenator,

 

Thank you for that critical piece of info. I need as much info as I can get! But the question is, do the supposedly reputable clinics in the industry employ 'yield verification' also? If there were a list of clinics that use this verification I would love to research that in depth/

 

Thank you again gillenator.

[Stig]

Hello HairDew,

 

Thank you for such an informative view. This is making me second think seeing armani, even confused about seeing him or not. What does not make sense is why armani did not stick with his original formula (FUT) that made them a superstar in the industry. Had they not switched to FUE they would've been branded the emperor of hair transplants. It is very disappointing.

 

Perhaps when I call them and inquire just for info sake, I may request FUT. But I would not count on it since I read they only work with FUE. But there is that chance.

 

Looked at many results of Baubac's transplants from last year...........

Hair Transplant / Hair Restoration Surgery Results - Hair Loss Forums

 

When you consider all these amazing results you can see why I am tempted to going to Baubac. But I am cautious also. Feller looks good to me I admit.

 

Oh for goodness sake. Just when it looked like he was going to pull the trigger and go with a particular surgeon, someone talks him out of it. Back to square one again. Hey Milo, where are those pics you promised to share?

[HairDew]

Hello HairDew,

 

Thank you for such an informative view. This is making me second think seeing armani, even confused about seeing him or not. What does not make sense is why armani did not stick with his original formula (FUT) that made them a superstar in the industry. Had they not switched to FUE they would've been branded the emperor of hair transplants. It is very disappointing.

 

Perhaps when I call them and inquire just for info sake, I may request FUT. But I would not count on it since I read they only work with FUE. But there is that chance.

 

Looked at many results of Baubac's transplants from last year...........

Hair Transplant / Hair Restoration Surgery Results - Hair Loss Forums

 

When you consider all these amazing results you can see why I am tempted to going to Baubac. But I am cautious also. Feller looks good to me I admit.

 

I would say all these results are on par with Dr. Edrogan and Edrogan charges far less money. I have been researching HT for the past 9 years. You can see my date of registration here. I'm going to Dr. Erdogan sometime in the summer. I'm glad I didn't pull the trigger 9 years ago (I was in my 30s) but waited to see how my hairloss stabilizes. Today I'm in my 40s and I'm still NW3ish. No meds.

 

Dr. Feller was on my top list 9 years ago. I was considering him. But since then FUE became so much better, I'm no longer considering FUT. And Dr. Feller does only "touch up" or small FUE cases (according to his posts). Not to mention he charges $10 per graft for FUE.

[milo12]

I would say all these results are on par with Dr. Edrogan and Edrogan charges far less money.

 

Dr. Feller was on my top list 9 years ago. I was considering him. But since then FUE became so much better, I'm no longer considering FUT. And Dr. Feller does only "touch up" or small FUE cases (according to his posts). Not to mention he charges $10 per graft for FUE.

 

Hello HairDew,

 

Glad you replied! Thank you. Regarding Erdogan charging less than Baubac, don't you think it is cheaper to travel to see Baubac in Califronia than all the way to Turkey? Especially if you already live in USA?

 

You also said Feller does "touch up" work. This reminds me, Rahal does this too. Anyway are you saying Feller does not do FUT dense packing?

[Stig]

Hello HairDew,

 

Glad you replied! Thank you. Regarding Erdogan charging less than Baubac, don't you think it is cheaper to travel to see Baubac in Califronia than all the way to Turkey? Especially if you already live in USA?

 

Whoops - your profile says you live in Hungary, so why would you then ask the question above that explicitly implies that you live in the USA? Turkey is definitely not all that far from Hungary when compared to California, which is. Gotcha!!! Seeing you have taken particular interest in a New York thread, am I right in saying you live in New York? Why did you lie about living in Hungary?

Edited February 5, 2017 by Stig

[HairDew]

Hello HairDew,

 

Glad you replied! Thank you. Regarding Erdogan charging less than Baubac, don't you think it is cheaper to travel to see Baubac in Califronia than all the way to Turkey? Especially if you already live in USA?

 

You also said Feller does "touch up" work. This reminds me, Rahal does this too. Anyway are you saying Feller does not do FUT dense packing?

 

Milo,

 

Let's do simple math.

 

Armani's FUE prices differ from person to person. On average he quotes about $6-8 per graft. So lets assume to be on the lower side of $6.

 

I need about 3500 grafts. So here it goes:

 

Armani/Baubac

Price $6/graft

3500 * 6 = $21,000

Hotel (3 nights) at around $100 per night,

Total = $21,300

 

Erdogan:

Price €2.50/graft (with current rate it is $2.70)

3500 * 2.5 = €8750 ($9437 USD)

Flight $1500

Hotel (3 nights) is included in price of HT

Total = $10,937

 

As you can see, it's about double.

 

 

P.S. Feller still mostly does FUT. But you don't know if you even get Feller to operate on you. Dr. Blake Bloxham now works with Feller and does most of HTs.

[Sean]

No doubt prices are cheaper for Dr Erdogan. But the number of grafts to reach a result are questionable. Some cases of 4000+ grafts seem disproportionate to the area of scalp covered. The yield is not high like most docs in some cases. Some patients I know went back twice to get dense result by separating procedures.

 

Dr Baubac does produce high dense yielding results.

[Stig]

Milo,

 

Let's do simple math.

 

Armani's FUE prices differ from person to person. On average he quotes about $6-8 per graft. So lets assume to be on the lower side of $6.

 

I need about 3500 grafts. So here it goes:

 

Armani/Baubac

Price $6/graft

3500 * 6 = $21,000

Hotel (3 nights) at around $100 per night,

Total = $21,300

 

Erdogan:

Price €2.50/graft (with current rate it is $2.70)

3500 * 2.5 = €8750 ($9437 USD)

Flight $1500

Hotel (3 nights) is included in price of HT

Total = $10,937

 

As you can see, it's about double.

 

 

P.S. Feller still mostly does FUT. But you don't know if you even get Feller to operate on you. Dr. Blake Bloxham now works with Feller and does most of HTs.

 

How did you get a flight of $1500 from Hungary to Turkey? There must be cheaper flights from Hungary surely. That's where Milo says he lives you know. You will also need to estimate the cost of flights from Hungary to LA and add to the Armani total.

 

I see flights costing less than $200 return for Budapest to Istanbul.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Stig

[hsrp10]

How did you get a flight of $1500 from Hungary to Turkey? There must be cheaper flights from Hungary surely. That's where Milo says he lives you know. You will also need to estimate the cost of flights from Hungary to LA and add to the Armani total.

 

I see flights costing less than $200 return for Budapest to Istanbul.

 

Hey Stig, for the overall good of the forum I did some research on Dr. Baubac, if he wanted to he could fly the doctor and his entire team out to Hungary or New York for $100/graft it seems without blowing his alias (he could also just get a dense FUT procedure with Dr. Bloxham in New York which would be the smartest move for him but I digress... )

 

<http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/magazine/article2999006.ece>'>http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/magazine/article2999006.ece>

 

“The price varies,” he shrugs. “If I’m doing it, a shaving case – where we shave the patient prior to the procedure – costs $8 per graft. But a news anchor, for example, can’t take a week off work, so we can’t shave him. We call that an executive case, and it’s $15 per graft, because it takes more time. For VIP cases – which means we shut down the clinic and lock the doors for them – it’s $30 per graft. Then there are the house and hotel visits, where we take the whole crew. That’s when you get up to $100 per graft. We end up recreating the entire operating room.”

 

Also I'll admit maybe Sean may be right, the doc seems reasonable and genuine in interviews on Youtube and is also apparently a hair transplant patient himself under Dr. Armani.

 

Btw what he really says is is that anything under 50 grafts/cm2 (not 55) could be see-through and I would have to agree with the doc especially in the case of fine caliber hair.

If you see the doc's results on the web not all are walls of hair and some look thin in the front so I don't really think there's anyway he's doing 100 grafts/cm2. And similar to all docs the results that impress the most are those with patients who have thick dark hair.

 

Here is an example of a patient with fine hair:

http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/img/uploaded/2629_image114.jpg

 

Also, the OP may want to get his reality in check in terms of what HT results are and also his behavorial issues in check too, otherwise the good doctor may reject him.

Here is he once again attacking Stig and calling him a troll for disagreeing with him:

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/186084-nioxin-waste-money.html

 

From Dr. Baubac himself:

<http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/magazine/article2999006.ece>

"Not everyone is a good candidate, though – and not just those with conditions such as alopecia totalis, which leaves them without any suitable donor sites. Some patients just aren’t emotionally fit, says Dr Hayatdavoudi. If they think it’s a full head of hair or life isn’t worth living – they’re not suitable.

With some other patients, they have underlying behavioural issues that need to be addressed."

Edited February 6, 2017 by hsrp10

[milo12]

Milo,

 

Armani/Baubac

Price $6/graft

3500 * 6 = $21,000

Hotel (3 nights) at around $100 per night,

Total = $21,300

 

Erdogan:

Price €2.50/graft (with current rate it is $2.70)

3500 * 2.5 = €8750 ($9437 USD)

Flight $1500

Hotel (3 nights) is included in price of HT

Total = $10,937

 

P.S. Feller still mostly does FUT. But you don't know if you even get Feller to operate on you. Dr. Blake Bloxham now works with Feller and does most of HTs.

 

Hello, HairDew,

 

Thank you for the reply and clarification. I see now what you mean! I should have known hotel and lodging is somewhat cheaper in Turkey.

 

As for Feller maybe it is possible to request him as your doctor? Could be a possibility.

 

No doubt prices are cheaper for Dr Erdogan. But the number of grafts to reach a result are questionable. Some cases of 4000+ grafts seem disproportionate to the area of scalp covered. The yield is not high like most docs in some cases. Some patients I know went back twice to get dense result by separating procedures.

 

Dr Baubac does produce high dense yielding results.

 

No doubt Baubac produces better results than Erdogan assuming Baubac's work is consistent. But still Baubac's prices are ridiculously high. I am interested in Baubac but seriously $21,000 is too much. A little too rich for my blood.

 

But when I called Baubac's office last week a spokesperson said his prices are comparable to any other clinic's. I doubt that now.

[Stig]

No doubt Baubac produces better results than Erdogan assuming Baubac's work is consistent. But still Baubac's prices are ridiculously high. I am interested in Baubac but seriously $21,000 is too much. A little too rich for my blood.

 

But when I called Baubac's office last week a spokesperson said his prices are comparable to any other clinic's. I doubt that now.

 

Why are you excluding the airfare from the $21,000 Baubac quote when you live in Hungary?

[milo12]

No doubt prices are cheaper for Dr Erdogan. But the number of grafts to reach a result are questionable. Some cases of 4000+ grafts seem disproportionate to the area of scalp covered. The yield is not high like most docs in some cases. Some patients I know went back twice to get dense result by separating procedures.

 

Dr Baubac does produce high dense yielding results.

 

Hello sean,

 

I forgot to say something. You mentioned Baubac's number of grafts to reach a result are questionable. Could you explain this? I am very interested in Baubac but trying to be cautious even though he operates in Beverly Hills and is well known by celebs. But still I want to have an open mind but be safe too.

[Ernie]

Hello sean,

 

I forgot to say something. You mentioned Baubac's number of grafts to reach a result are questionable. Could you explain this? I am very interested in Baubac but trying to be cautious even though he operates in Beverly Hills and is well known by celebs. But still I want to have an open mind but be safe too.

 

Since you're in Hungary, why not just go away? I mean, go to Turkey?

[MrMatt]

Since you're in Hungary, why not just go away? I mean, go to Turkey?

 

Turkey might be good if he really is Hungary.

[milo12]

Turkey might be good if he really is Hungary.

 

Lol. Good one MrMatt. Needed that to lift my spirits up. Thank you.

 

Since you're in Hungary, why not just go away? I mean, go to Turkey?

 

Hello, Ernie,

 

Sadly for me I am not in Hungary anymore. Now I am on assignment in Asia. Will be coming to USA in near future. Thank you for the suggestion though.

[Sean]

Hello sean,

 

I forgot to say something. You mentioned Baubac's number of grafts to reach a result are questionable. Could you explain this? I am very interested in Baubac but trying to be cautious even though he operates in Beverly Hills and is well known by celebs. But still I want to have an open mind but be safe too.

 

Milo, i wasnt referring to Dr Baubac. I think his yield is up there.

 

Some docs 3000 grafts results are still not as good as one doc that may use 1500 grafts. I think many factors can cause that. Dense packing with a large number of grafts for a single day procedure without an ideal surgical protocol is risky.

[milo12]

Milo, i wasnt referring to Dr Baubac. I think his yield is up there.

 

Some docs 3000 grafts results are still not as good as one doc that may use 1500 grafts. I think many factors can cause that. Dense packing with a large number of grafts for a single day procedure without an ideal surgical protocol is risky.

 

Hello sean,

 

Thanks for the input. Today I will be in touch with Baubac's clinic to ask him questions. When I get my answers I will let you know what he said. That way you could help guide me into whether or not he is the right doctor for me or not. Thanks.

[HairDew]

How did you get a flight of $1500 from Hungary to Turkey? There must be cheaper flights from Hungary surely. That's where Milo says he lives you know. You will also need to estimate the cost of flights from Hungary to LA and add to the Armani total.

 

I see flights costing less than $200 return for Budapest to Istanbul.

Hi Stig,

 

I was quoting MY OWN case. I live in AZ so $1500 was an approximate price for the flight from PHX to Turkey.