jcs87

Frankly, I just think you're wrong on a number of these points and I am happy to explain why. Well obviously group-think is a term that carries a negative connotation. We could just as easily choose a phrase that carries a positive connotation such as "jcs's approach is leveraging the collective wisdom of the group." Both of those terms are addressing the fact that I'm looking to gather info from a group of individuals...you just choose to frame it as a negative thing whereas I think it's positive. That's one of the major advantages of these forums in the first place - it allows a prospective surgery client to be put into contact/interact with people that have relevant knowledge/past experiences. I find it rather bizarre that you think it's such a crazy idea for me to use the forums in such a manner. You're making a pretty big assumption here. The assumption is that all of these posters and doctors are all so biased that it is heavily skewing their perspectives. Perhaps the reality of the matter is all of these people on the forums and all these doctors arrive at the same "elite" list for one incredibly simple reason: because those doctors really are the best. It's like when everyone says Kobe, and Michael Jordan, and Lebron are the best basketball players in the world. And you say "well everyone just thinks that because they are biased." Well maybe...OR it's just that those three guys are so clearly elite that everyone who knows anything about basketball can agree they are the best. And just for the record I think it's probably somewhere in the middle - the guys that get passed around as "recommendations" probably are some of the best but as you have pointed out there are probably other doctors that are in the same league but just don't get as much attention for whatever reason. I think it's a bit arrogant to keep on promulgating the idea that your approach is the only way to conduct research. There are multiple ways to conduct research - a prudent individual would utilize all of the resources they have at their disposal. Based on your proposed strategy I'd be interested to hear your answer to these questions: 1. If I shouldn't be talking to other people on the forums about who they think is elite (or asking hair surgeons who they recommend) then how should I narrow down my list? For that matter if we follow your logic then I can't trust the list of recommended doctors on this forum since it has its own biases and requires payment of a fee to participate. So if "There is no other way to doing research besides personally looking at doctors' results" then the logical outcome to that argument is that I need to go create a list of every hair surgeon in the world and go through multiple sets of before and after pics for hundreds of surgeons? 2. Additionally, just looking at before/after pictures doesn't effectively address a number of the specific examples I laid out in my previous post: 3. I would also argue that there is something to be said for going with a doc that is highly regarded by other doctors in his field, highly regarded by real patients (that I can communicate with on this forum), and has been vetted for inclusion on the various lists (even though I understand that 'vetting' process can be somewhat questionable at times). If you go with some random doctor that has great results but nobody has ever heard of him then what if he is digitally altering his before/after photos? What if he is just stealing before/after photos from other reputable clinics and claiming them as his own? What if he is only showing his best results and neglecting to post his mediocre/crappy results (which any doctor with half a brain is gonna do since it's in his best interests)? You're taking quite a pessimistic view point of my approach. I've laid out a very lengthy and cogent argument for my strategy and why I think it is best, but you didn't really acknowledge any of the strengths of my approach. I also made a point of acknowledging that there are inherent weaknesses to my approach - just like there are with any strategy (including yours). I'm happy to keep an open mind and acknowledge the strengths of your approach and the weaknesses of my own and I would urge you to do the same. Cheers

Hi KO, here is my thought process: 1. I'm quite new to the forums and pretty new to the world of hair surgery in general. One of the things that has made me successful in my career up to this point is that I'm smart enough to admit when other people know more about a topic than I do and I am more than willing to engage with them and leverage the knowledge that they have accumulated over years in their particular field of expertise. I also work in big data analytics so I've become quite good at synthesizing very large amounts of information. So as you have already pointed out, I am trying to stimulate conversation, gather a wide range of opinions, and potentially hear some debate amongst all the people on these forums that have accumulated years of valuable knowledge. 2. To stick with the business analogy one of the things that employees that have been with a company bring to the table is legacy knowledge. Lets say you have two employees with the exact same skills - one of them joined 6 months ago and one of them has been with the company for 6 years. One of the big things that the tenured employee can provide is context and legacy knowledge to things that have happened in the past. What was the thought process behind the company choosing Strategy X over Strategy Y, which high ranking executives at the company like each other versus can't stand each other, etc. To bring this back to the world of hair transplants, by gathering a wide range of opinions on a variety of the top doctors I'm hoping to discover things that would have otherwise remained hidden to me or would require reading thousands of threads going back years and years (I'm happy to put in the time but time is a finite resource and it's just not realistic to read every single thread on every single recommended doctor - and if you broaden the scope to all hair surgeons in the world it becomes literally impossible to achieve). So what are some of the things I'm looking for? Here are some random examples off the top of my head: Negative examples: 1. Doctor XYZ used to be top notch and have amazing results but in the past couple years results have gone downhill 2. Doctor XYZ used to perform all the surgeries himself but in recent years he has switched to a model of having techs do most of the work and he oversees things 3. Doctor XYZ produces amazing results but he seems to have a higher number of patients that suffer from infections or post-op complications 4. Doctor XYZ produces amazing results but there are concerns in the community about his ethics due to over-use of grafts on young unmedicated patients, low hairlines on advances NW's, etc. Positive examples: 1. Doctor ABC is a top-notch surgeon with amazing results but he just isn't very well known because he doesn't do a lot of online marketing and his clinic is targeted to non-english speaking men (Cuoto would appear to be a perfect example of this) 2. Doctor ABC is relatively new on the scene but his training was with a world renowned surgeon, his skills are top notch and he also has reasonable prices relative to some of his peers (Lupanzula would potentially fall into this bucket) I could go on forever but this post is already getting too long so I'll cut it off there. As you correctly pointed out the downside to relying on any group of people, or any certain list is that you potentially overlook very talented surgeons that haven't been "discovered" by this community. By engaging with a variety of individuals on the forum I hope to broaden the scope of my search and maybe capture some of those proverbial diamonds in the rough and look into them further. That being said, it's impossible to look into every surgeon and at some point you need to utilize recommended lists and experienced members recommendations to refine the list down to a manageable number. To give another analogy, when I need a new jacket there are millions of different jackets available for sale from thousands of different stores. I can't try on every single jacket, so I go with brands I recognize or I ask a few fashionable friends which jackets they've been wearing recently. (and no I'm not saying that choosing a $10,000 hair surgeon is the same as buying a $150 jacket - my point is just that no one has unlimited time so at some point we need to find strategies to make our search process more efficient). Similar to how a CEO solicits opinions from the knowledgeable people that report to him, Once I feel like I have gathered a reasonable amount of info and have gotten opinions from smart and knowledgeable ppl that have been doing this longer than I have THEN i can make my decision - and of course I know that at the end of the day that responsibility lies with me. No one else can tell me who is gonna be right for me. Hope that sheds some light on how I am approaching this.

Hey JohnnyDrama, any chance of an update with some pics? Been quite a while since your operation so would be nice to see the final product. I'm evaluating FUE surgeons and Bisanga is on my short list

Yep - that all makes sense to me. When did you pose this question to the various docs (was it late 2016)?

Martin any follow up here? Been years since the operation so I'm hopeful your skin problems have been fixed

That's a great idea and pretty valuable insight from people that see behind the scenes. Pretty impressed that you were able to get 10 out of 12 to respond to a question like that. Interesting that Lupanzala, Erdogan, Keser, Shapiro, and Konior didn't get any mentions. I'd also be fascinated to know what the docs think of Juan Cuoto.

There was a separate thread that I don't have handy at the moment but here was the pricing from that thread (I believe the prices listed were current as of late 2016): "First 1500 grafts = 4.5EUR From 1500 to 3000 = 4EUR Everything above that = 2.50EUR" Bisanga is actually cheaper than Lupanzala for any procedure above 1,500 grafts. I was operating under the impression that Lupanzala was gonna be cheaper but when I actually looked at the price structure this is how the math worked out. Didn't Lupanzala train w/ Bisanga? I'm surprised he's charging higher rates. I am looking at FUE docs for hairline and temple work and Bisanga is on my short list - would you mind linking me to the thread you're referring to. Who were the other docs that were frequently mentioned? Any particular reason you decided to omit Ozgur Oztan from the short list at this point in time?

I am in the process of researching the same thing. You need to look into Bisanga, Lorenzo, Shapiro, Konior, Erdogan, Keser, Feriduni, and Juan Cuoto

Wow, pretty incredible results from Dr Cuoto. Anyone with additional info to share?

Good info regarding Maras, I'm gonna look into him. Do you know whether he tends to favor FUE vs FUT? My Rahal question was actually referring to FUT. I'm not even considering him for FUE b/c his prices are way too high (especially since it seems most people would rank him below the elite European/Turkish docs that also happen to charge half the price). Any thoughts on Lorenzo's colleague Chueco down in Buenos Aires. I'm trying to find his rates, I have a feeling he could be quite affordable given the weakness of the Argentine peso.

What's Maras reputation? I haven't come across his name as frequently as the other ones on this list. Also, while we're on the topics of Turkish Docs, what about Dogany & Karadeniz? Cuoto has some of the craziest results I've ever seen...Just go look up some of those youtube videos and your jaw will be on the floor Excellent info For Rahal, which steps are handled by the techs versus the doc himself? I'm pretty new to the forums myself so I don't feel qualified to cast a vote, but I've already corresponded with KO and hsrp on multiple threads and they both seem quite knowledgeable so I think it says a lot that they are both so definitive in saying Konior is the right doc for you.

Makes sense. Thanks for the info!

Looking good! - I noticed that Dr Karadeniz is no longer listed on Joe's website. Any idea why?

Wow those are some crazy waiting times for Feriduni - so you'd be looking at having surgery 15-18 months from today! Cork - any updates here. Who did you go with?

Wow so you'd place Cooley ahead of Konior, Shapiro, and Gabel? Also, Transhair I'm surprised that you aren't considering Rahal or H&W for North American doctors. So what are the pros and cons of Erdogan versus Keser at this point in time. I'm still in the process of researching both docs but this is what I've got so far: -Erdogan is cheaper (2.5EURO per graft versus 3.5 for Keser I believe) -Erdogan runs a bit of a factory with multiple surgeries per day (I'm trying to figure out what Erdogan does himself versus what the techs/assistants handle) -Keser is more involved in the various steps of the surgery -Seems like both docs have some lingering concerns about their ethics: Keser was rejected from membership in this forums 'Recommended Docs' list due to concerns of about aggressive hairlines and aggressive # of grafts in low NW scale patients. Erdogan seems to be very widely respected but also seems to have quite a reputation for over-the-top graft count recommendations. Interested to see someone throw Chueco into the mix. Chueco is apparently business partners with Lorenzo so that instantly lends him some credibility. That being said, I haven't been able to find a ton of info on him - very interested to know what are your thoughts KO / why do you think he is in the same tier as some of these other better known guys?

Thank you for posting this honest review. I was very close to having surgery with Dr Path so it's good to see both positive and negative results. That being said, I'm sorry things didn't work out for you. Hope your 3rd surgery (should you decide to pursue that path) works out better

The link isn't working for me but I believe you're probably referring to a thread on best value FUE docs in Europe - I came across that during my research and you're right it is quite a helpful thread. These threads are incredible - I'm currently only on page 7 or so but I'm planning to read all ~40 pages. Thank you for bringing them to my attention! Yeah I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to accomplish this. My top choices for FUT are scattered all over N America and my top choices for FUE are all in Europe so it's rather difficult. Might try and fly over to Brussels and schedule 3 consultations with 3 dif docs since there seems to be a cluster of highly talented guys in that area.

So at this point my list that I want to research further for FUT is: R Shapiro H&W Rahal Cooley Gabel Konior - probably out due to cost and long wait list Feller- Out due to cost Any noticeable omissions? Maras still lists FUT on his website. This is the first I'm hearing of this Doc. I should also probably take this opportunity to say that I think I was premature in confining my search to FUT doctors, I am going to seriously look into FUE as well since this may actually be a better fit for me due to short hair styling that I usually go with. Based on very preliminary research the names that I have in my head are: Bisanga, Lorenzo, Feriduni, and maybe Lupanzula and maybe Mwamba. Seems like for North American doctors Shapiro or maybe Konior are the names I see coming up most often for FUE. I'm also trying to gather more info on what seem to be the 2 top Turkish docs: Doganay and Erdogan (Erdogan sounds great and the price is right, but it also sounds like they run a bit of a factory operation over there and it's unclear to me how involved the doc is with my actual surgery). Lastly, there are the three Indian docs recommended on this site: Tejinder Bhatti, Kapil Dua, and Pos wal. I never see anyone mentioning the Indian docs as being in the top tier elite conversation though...Anyone with thoughts on these guys (for either FUE or FUT).

That's a perfectly fine explanation and as I acknowledged in my previous post "You mentioned that he has a 1-year wait list so is he simply so successful that he doesn't feel the need to 'play the game'?" But I think it's a fair question to ask given that the majority of other "elite" surgeons are members of all of these orgs. Is it a widely accepted conclusion that being recommended on HRN is more prestigious than being an IAHRS member. I was sort of under the impression that IAHRS is considered the most elite? I know that tone can be lost via written communication but I can't help being rubbed the wrong way by the implied tone of this post. Yes, I did do my research: If you go to the IAHRS's own website here: IAHRS Members | Hair Transplant Doctors you will notice that Dr Konior is NOT listed. If you had to choose between a doctor's website that makes a claim of being a member in something versus that org's own public membership list, which would you go with? I think any reasonable person would say to trust the org's membership list first. (and keep in mind I'm new here - I don't have years of experience like you do to know that Dr Konior is considered a world class surgeon in this community) Sure, it's possible that this is just a mistaken omission on the IAHRS website but I think it's being pretty over-critical of me to say that I'm slacking on my research for concluding he's not a member if he's not on that website's very own membership list. I did not know that. There wasn't any scientific methodology to my list. Just from reading the forums and having conversations with some folks in the community. As I've already acknowledged I have come to the realization that I jumped the gun and I am not yet ready to make a decision. Need to continue researching. Yeah I've heard the same feedback from many folks on Path. No one thinks he's terrible but no one thinks he's elite either. I believe I saw somewhere that Dr Cooley trained under Dr Vogel in Baltimore but I never see Vogel's name mentioned anywhere. Any idea why? I understand that every person is unique and I am more than willing to put in the hours and time necessary to do the research. I am new here but I am a long-standing and well respected member of other internet forums (that deal with completely different topics) so I "get it" that it annoys the old-timers when newbies come in wanting everything handed to them on a silver platter. That being said, ideally, I was hoping people that have been on these forums for years and have tons of knowledge to share could say something like: "Given your hair loss situation and pictures from the original post if you're looking to do FUT the most widely respected surgeons are Doc 1,2,3,4,5. If you're looking to do FUE the most widely respected surgeons are Doc 6,7,8,9,10." And if possible, any additional details such as "Doc 1 is known for amazing hairline work, Doc 2 is known for amazing work with NW4-6 cases, Doc 7 is known for incredibly low transection rates w/ FUE technique, etc. etc." Those are the sort of succinct lists and commentary that can really accelerate the learning curve for a newbie like me. And then I'd be more than happy to really drill down and read thread after thread on those 10 doctors that the community has pointed me towards.

That's an interesting comment, could you elaborate further? Is Shapiro known for being really good with temple recession, diffuse thinning, and loss of density along the hairline (these are the three big issues that I'm dealing with at the moment). I definitely do intend to speak w/ him based on feedback/research.

Is there any back story to why Dr Konior isn't recommended on the other sites (pretty much all of the other elite docs I'm considering are recommended on IAHRS, Bald Truth Talk, and American Hair Loss Association). You mentioned that he has a 1-year wait list so is he simply so successful that he doesn't feel the need to 'play the game'? Also, any particular reasons/details that you feel like Dr Path doesn't belong on the list? Any particular reasons/details that you feel like Dr Path doesn't belong on the list? If I were to go with H&W what are the pros and cons in your opinion of Hasson vs Wong?

My initial starting point for getting this short list was to cross-reference the recommended surgeon lists from IAHRS, American Hair Loss Association, Hair Transplant Network, and Bald Truth Talk. I figured that doctors that kept showing up on all of those lists were worth looking into. As far as I can tell Dr Konior is only recommended on this site, none of the others - so that's why I was not aware of him when putting together my list. Based on further research and time spent on the forums it seems like I made another noticeable omission: Dr Shapiro of Minneapolis. Another doc whose name has come up a couple times but I hven't had a chance to really look into is Dr Cooley of North Carolina. How would you say these three docs stack up against the Rahal, H&W, Gabel caliber docs?

Any updates to this thread? Did you end up having surgery with Dr. Chueco?

Very interested in Dr Lupanzula's work. Looking forward to more updates. Good luck KO!

+1 Also very interested in Dr. Lupanzula's work. Can't wait to see the full results