Is "No" to Juvenile hairline an Excuse?

[BlackAmish111]

So i havent really posted nor checked on these forums in a few years -got my first HT probably a good 7 years ago for around 900 grafts and my most recent about 7 months ago for 1200 grafts. i have a high forehead and with receding temples kind of radically changes my facial features. The other thing i have the kind of hair that is some days curly, some days straight and some days frizzy. So there are days in which my hair may seem really healthy and it will at the same time kinda "drop" and almost give me a squared up lower hairline. Other days the opposite and i used to think it was imagination but many people have confirmed my face seems to radically change in appearance from day to day. For instance I used to fitness model and would have the agency constantly conflicted if i should also be a print face model - they themselves said my "looks changed to often". Ex-girlfriends have told me the same thing noticing if i went in the bathroom and kinda "pulled my hair forward (like Caesar) that my handsomness just went "way up" and "how did I do that?!".

Obviously too much of that can give a guy a complex. When younger i used to just shave my head to a nice tennis ball buzz which looked great but not so great after the buzz receded -crazy how thats even noticeable on an almost shaved head!!

 

Sorry for the long backstory but its kinda criticl to my question. WHen i first came here to this site and got my first HT - the "dont go to juvenile hairline" was a prominent statement here and by many HT doctors as they dont want you to "look funny as you age". Well, i can safely say that anytime my hair looks even close to juvenile depth, everyone including my wife think im sometimes 20 years younger -no exaggeration !! And look at older handsome guys -guys like George Clooney or even the 70 yo Dos XXX most Interesting Man whatever guy - very low Box hairlines.

 

So what gives? Is it maybe that its the hardest to achieve and only top tier HT Docs can pull it off? Im seriously considering one last HT and just demanding they go to Juvenile level -im tired of constantly trying to achieve it thru "good hair days" and topikk. I know its never the same density as natural but even when i kinda fake a lower hairline with coloring -it has the same great effect.

Edited February 20, 2022 by BlackAmish111

[Curious25]

Nothing wrong with an aggressive hairline restoration IF you fit the criteria. Here’s an idea of what a good surgeon would consider as criteria; 
 

-Minimal Hairloss

-Stabilised Hairloss (as good as stable hairloss can be) - preferably on meds 

-Above Average Donor Density (a sufficient ratio to cover further loss if it was to progress) 

-Family History of Minimal Loss

-Realistic Expectations of Coverage 

-Facial Features compliment planned aggressive hairline 

By the sounds of your back story, you tick the box for the last point - maybe if you delve further into this thread with pics and a run through of your hair loss journey, others can help chime in and provide you with some thoughts ?  

[BlackAmish111]

Thank you for that list - that helps somewhat. Yes i know i should post pics and what not (old and lazy) ill try to get around to that. So basically you're saying that more Docs are on board with that aggressive procedure now as long as you fit the above criteria? I remember back in the day it seemed there were maybe just a few docs maybe Rahal? and a few others that were considered "skilled" enough for aggressive hairlines.

[HappyMan2021]

@BlackAmish111 it looks like you are in your early to mid 50's? You are already at the age where having a perfect juvenile hairline starts to look sus. 

I personally would prefer a super dense mature/conservative NW 2 hairline than risking all the complications and baggage that come with trying to achieve a forever young hairline. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by SadMan2021

[NARMAK]

I think you need to differentiate between "Juvenile" and "Mature" hairlines firstly. The juvenile hairline is usually a bit more rounded off and almost feminine like in look and actually not the more masculine hairline we associate with males in their late teens onwards. 

I think your example of George Clooney etc. if you look at em are "perfect mature hairlines" that most might cite. Now, in terms of getting a reputable surgeon to agree to giving you an aggressive hairline, i think Curious25 hit most of the points but i'd personally diverge with that list in terms of the family history part. 

I think age wise, 25-35 with maybe no more than a Norwood 2 and being stable for probably 5+ years with minimal hairloss. 

Also, the frontalis muscles dictate a lot how low you can go with your hairline without it looking unnatural. If you also naturally have a longer face, the proportion of thirds is usually considered as part of the hairline process by most top surgeons. 

The overall aesthetic goals have to be matched realistically by long term donor area and what you'd do if you progress further. 

[BlackAmish111]

Good points all around guys -i really appreciate it. Yes i guess i just mean an Aggressive Mature hairline -one in which i dont have to grow unnaturally long hair from behind the temple region to cover up the temple. Funny, after my last procedure (FUE) because of maybe the blood clotting stuff around my hairline which i was forbidden to touch -it pretty much achieved exactly what im looking for -that being if gave the illusion of the exact hairline i wanted and kinda thought i had - until they washed away a week or so later. I know i sound a little obsessed but honestly, when i do achieve that look -its like i dont need to think about anymore at all -if that makes sense.

 

I am still very, very happy with the results of my first 2 HT's, honestly i couldnt imagine not having gotten them

[Mike10]

How old are you now? The 2 previous HTs were for the frontal area? 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Mike10

[TommyLucchese]

I'm sure someone has said this already but one of the important factors is your age, level of loss, your donor hair quality + future loss.

Juvenile hairlines take a lot of grafts, especially with high density. You could end up with a Clooney hairline then nothing behind it if you lose the rest and wasted all your donor on the front. 

If you're 45 and only have some frontal loss that seems stable, then a doctor could consider it if you donor was strong and there was no crown loss etc. 

[Al - Moderator]

The problem is not that a low hairline can't be done. The main issue is usually that when you are younger and losing hair you can't really be sure how much hair you will lose over the years. You don't want to get a low hairline and then lose a lot more hair and run out of donor leaving you with a thick, low hairline and huge bald crown. I don't know how old you are, but you said your first transplant was about 7 years ago, so perhaps at that time the Drs were hesitant to go too low with the hairline due to your age and potential loss vs how much donor hair they estimated you had. Now that you are older, if you haven't lost much additional hair over those 7 years, you may get some Drs much more willing to lower your hairline a bit. You probably don't need to lower it very much if you say you can get a decent looking hairline on good hair days when your hair is longer, so it could be that just a minor lowering could at least get you where you are having a lot more good hair days and even the bad hair days won't be as bad as they are now.

 

[1978matt]

It's worth distinguishing between Juvenille and NW2 hairlines.  Steven Gerrard is Juvenile, Brad Pitt is NW2.

A NW2 is doable if you have minimal loss and low risk of extensive loss.  Juvenile is just too risky for most.

[Ajamilo]

Good luck with the juvenile hairline as Gerrard

 

[NARMAK]

1 hour ago, 1978matt said:

It's worth distinguishing between Juvenille and NW2 hairlines.  Steven Gerrard is Juvenile, Brad Pitt is NW2.

A NW2 is doable if you have minimal loss and low risk of extensive loss.  Juvenile is just too risky for most.

Honestly might argue with you on Brad Pitt being a Norwood 2 tbh. He's got a very solid looking Norwood 1 mature hairline for a male. Google Brad Pitt Hair 2021 and it looks very boxed off with just a bit in the corners like a mature hairline. His hairlines never been super low as i recall. More of a medium distance from glabella. 

Ultimately anybody at the age of Pitt would be lucky to have that mane lol. 

Personally i'm a Norwood 2 and mine doesn't look as good. 

[1978matt]

4 minutes ago, NARMAK said:

Honestly might argue with you on Brad Pitt being a Norwood 2 tbh. He's got a very solid looking Norwood 1 mature hairline for a male. Google Brad Pitt Hair 2021 and it looks very boxed off with just a bit in the corners like a mature hairline. His hairlines never been super low as i recall. More of a medium distance from glabella. 

Ultimately anybody at the age of Pitt would be lucky to have that mane lol. 

Personally i'm a Norwood 2 and mine doesn't look as good. 

You could make a case for somewhere between 1 and 2:

[Curious25]

Personally , whatever label you want to give Brad Pitt’s hairline, I think it is so much more aesthetic than the juvenile one of gerrard in the above pic. Obviously this can’t be a generalised statement to make, as it has to take into consideration individual facial features and proportions etc - but as a general rule of thumb, it comes down to the rule of facial thirds - and a true juvenile hairline doesn’t really allow for this to play out.  

BUT as a community of hair nerds, it is hard not to appreciate how incredibly low a young Gerrards hairline actually was! 

It has matured somewhat since he was that age (I think maybe 17 in that pic) however, he still maintains a very low and dense hairline . . And no Grey hair !!! 
 

Some people hey! 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Curious25

[Rahal Hair Transplant]

I agree that there’s nothing wrong with an aggressive hairline restoration in patients who are ideal candidates for it.  The truth is however, not everyone is best suited for this kind of procedure.  

Hair transplant surgery is about supply and demand. Donor hair is limited and if the demand is great and the supply is small or smaller - re-creating a youthful looking hairline will leave less to be desired in other areas of the scalp.  Now, technically revise patients can still request a lower hairline but they need to be completely aware that there may not be enough donor hair for other areas of the scalp.   If the ratio to supply Vs demand favors demand, The hair transplant with a low U to hairline may not look natural on the flipside, if the ratio of supply versus demand favors supply, you can essentially go as low as you want (within reason - you probably don’t want an Eddie Munster hairline) without jeopardizing and sacrificing naturalness and density elsewhere.

Note that when considering the ratio of supply versus demand one also has to consider subsequent hair loss and the possibility of future procedures  

So to answer your question, no, I wouldn’t say always avoiding recreating a youthful looking hairline is an excuse but it’s certainly a viable option for many.

Rahal Hair Transplant 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Rahal Hair Transplant

[1978matt]

2 hours ago, Curious25 said:

Personally , whatever label you want to give Brad Pitt’s hairline, I think it is so much more aesthetic than the juvenile one of gerrard in the above pic. Obviously this can’t be a generalised statement to make, as it has to take into consideration individual facial features and proportions etc - but as a general rule of thumb, it comes down to the rule of facial thirds - and a true juvenile hairline doesn’t really allow for this to play out.  

BUT as a community of hair nerds, it is hard not to appreciate how incredibly low a young Gerrards hairline actually was! 

It has matured somewhat since he was that age (I think maybe 17 in that pic) however, he still maintains a very low and dense hairline . . And no Grey hair !!! 
 

Some people hey! 

Yeah, I'd rather have Pitt's hairline.

[Fue3361]

I had a pretty aggressive hairline for myself.  I'm very happy with it.  Honestly, I think the only real argument for not going aggressive is if you'll run out of grafts and need more in the future.  At that point, one has to reserve grafts.  But if you don't have aggressive hairloss and have the grafts to make it happen, I don't see why not.

 

That said, everyone has a different face.  Some people will look silly with a low hairline, others look great.  Some people pull it off better than others.  And also, lowering hairline can be really risky because if the DR does a bad job, it looks horrible.  Also, a low aggressive hairline that is also not very dense looks silly.  If you're going to go lower and aggressive, density is a MUST for it to look natural.

[BlackAmish111]

1 hour ago, Fue3361 said:

I had a pretty aggressive hairline for myself.  I'm very happy with it.  Honestly, I think the only real argument for not going aggressive is if you'll run out of grafts and need more in the future.  At that point, one has to reserve grafts.  But if you don't have aggressive hairloss and have the grafts to make it happen, I don't see why not.

 

That said, everyone has a different face.  Some people will look silly with a low hairline, others look great.  Some people pull it off better than others.  And also, lowering hairline can be really risky because if the DR does a bad job, it looks horrible.  Also, a low aggressive hairline that is also not very dense looks silly.  If you're going to go lower and aggressive, density is a MUST for it to look natural.

Thats really impressive result -Wow! When you say you had "forehead reduction" is that another procedure or is that just what you mean by really lowering  your hairline with aggressive HT?

Im 51 yo for those that have been asking and i think i still have plenty of donor hair - i also have a longish face with widows peak shape hairline and i think thats a lot of my issue. Getting it lowered and straighter would pretty much solve it i think. But i can see by FUE3361's results that he really spent alot of grafts on just the hairline area -im guessing thats the difference. My first HT (900) was almost just like a pencil line to establish a hairline (very high up tho) and the 2nd recent one (1200grfts) pretty much reinforced behind that and somewhat at the temporal region - i had asked them to lower it and they were like "yeah ok, a little...". They werent a well known outfit in Philadelphia region but they were very friendly and cost effective. Im now recently moved to Toronto region so maybe ill check out Dr Rahal for his opinion. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by BlackAmish111

[Curious25]

1 hour ago, Fue3361 said:

If you're going to go lower and aggressive, density is a MUST for it to look natural.

Agreed 

[Fue3361]

10 hours ago, BlackAmish111 said:

Thats really impressive result -Wow! When you say you had "forehead reduction" is that another procedure or is that just what you mean by really lowering  your hairline with aggressive HT?

Im 51 yo for those that have been asking and i think i still have plenty of donor hair - i also have a longish face with widows peak shape hairline and i think thats a lot of my issue. Getting it lowered and straighter would pretty much solve it i think. But i can see by FUE3361's results that he really spent alot of grafts on just the hairline area -im guessing thats the difference. My first HT (900) was almost just like a pencil line to establish a hairline (very high up tho) and the 2nd recent one (1200grfts) pretty much reinforced behind that and somewhat at the temporal region - i had asked them to lower it and they were like "yeah ok, a little...". They werent a well known outfit in Philadelphia region but they were very friendly and cost effective. Im now recently moved to Toronto region so maybe ill check out Dr Rahal for his opinion. 

Mine was an FUE.  I called it a forehead reduction because I am not balding.  I just always had a big forehead since I was a kid.  

[BlackAmish111]

Wow gotta say i just contacted Dr Rahals office just to get an idea of how many grafts they think i might need to lower the hairline by 1 cm alongside pictures etc...and man i gotta say they were the least helpful, more corporate response of all the Hair Clinics ive talked to. Totally objecting to even speculating (again with full measurement photos) whatsoever because my last procedure was finished7 months ago and their policy is 10 months before another one. I told them repeatedly -I get that, im just trying to plan ahead, ya know, to get an idea and same corporate response over and over -even ending the conversation with "We thank you for your understanding...contact us again!"

 

Like WTH - man they are a far cry from the many hair clinics ive talked to over the past decade. I get that they might not want to give an "absolute answer" -but lets face it - no new grafts are coming miraculously into my hairline now -its worth planning for. My wife is going to be a hard sell on a 3rd procedure -so id like to start planning now. 

 

This was a far cry from Capri hair restoration Philly -my last HT guys. So friendly an warm, they talked to me for months and I literally left there like i had just left a great party - down to even the Asst Techs who worked there.  Interaction with Rahal was a BIG disappointment. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by BlackAmish111