Regular Member JimJohnson Posted October 2, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted October 2, 2009 Recently I remembered listening to the LLLT debate which spencer kobren organized and Dr. Feller and Dr. Bauman joined. They discussed wether LLLT works or not. I was very skepticals about lasers too, so I thought maybe Dr. Bauman was able to convince me. He wasn't. I remember sypmathizing with you when you started laughing and whispering "Oh my god" when Dr. Bauman mentioned that he charges 5000$ for a year long treatment which provided no real photographical evidence that it works. All there is are some studies that some lasers were able to promote healing of the skin (or whatever), but that does not directly mean that it will lead to hair growth! So what do we have now? The same DAMN thing. You offer a treatment that has shown some healing benefits and has been used for that for MANY MANY years... and now suddenly it is used as a treatment of hair growth, thanks to Dr. Greco who claims to have used PRP for many years with great success. Apperantly, with no good before and after pictures. WAIT, we've had that before!!! OH MY GOD! Wasn't that the same thing Dr. Baumand said about his LLLT treatment? YES! LLLt has been used for decades for healing properties! He said he had been using it with great success too, but failed to show a set of pictures where REAL hair regrowth/thickening was achieved. And I remember you bashing him (and you were right) about the lack of evidence showing that this thing is working. And we haven't heard from you about that for quite some time now. Let's see what you provided us so far. Here we have a nice comparison: Before and after, 2 weeks. Wait, what? 2 WEEKS? Why do you show us a before and after comparison of 2 weeks?! I know you posted several other "after" pics, but I mean, come on. 2 weeks is NOT NEARLY ENOUGH to show some hair growth benefits. I guess you know that. Why posting those pics than? Gotta love the fact that the hair is wetter in the before too. Hey, didn't Dr. Bauman use some similar lightning/hair soaked tricks? Also wondering why you only made a single (wet) before picture, but tons of after pics (but whatever, 2 weeks. LOL!) Ok, next one. So, what do we have here! YAY, the same damn thing! GREAT HAIR REGROWTH AFTER 6 WEEKS, weeeeeeeeeeh! Well, do I have to explain this? I think it's pretty obvious. Just like in the first set, ONE single before picture, several "after" pictures. the before pic is purposely combed/soaked the way that we see the WORST CASE. Look, even I can make my head look BALD in a before pic, but FULL in the after pic. Everyone can do that. Also love the way you drew circles over areas that seemed to be almost bald before, but had some long healthy hairs 6 weeks after. Hmm.. Ok, back to business. 6 weeks. To be honest, you would have fooled me too when you had written that those pictures were taken 4-6 months apart, but it's only been 1 1/2 months. Let's see your comment about those: Quote by Dr. Feller: "Yes, I think it is working. There is no question that the top is thicker than it was just over a month ago. Another positive note is that he hasn't experienced any loss since the treatment." WOW, no visible loss after 6 weeks. Unless he's the "most balding" guy in the world, this is pretty... normal? Ok, thicker hair. As I said, you cleverly made his hair look bad in the ONLY before picture you provided. It would have been great if you had stayed consistend with the way you took the comparison pictures (starting by taking MORE than one "before" picture), but you weren't. So, long story short: Unless you're able to show us some REAL photographic evidence that this thing works, you're not much better than dr. Bauman. If your next post is gonna show some great pictures of PRP results, than I apologize sincerly. Really! I hope you can understand my frustration as I think you have been in the same situation when LLLT was hyped 2 years ago. I'm just another young balding guy looking for some WORKING treatments. Otherwise, you're not better than Dr. Bauman by simply taking some blood, mixing it and injecting some cells into our scalps. How much does this cost? 600-800$? I think that's even more shameless than charging 5000$ for a YEAR-treatent, including propecia+minoxidil. (This is what Dr. Bauman charges) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member thanatopsis_awry Posted October 2, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted October 2, 2009 A worthy adversary to replace the now antiquated LLLT debates...lol.... You sure you're just some random newbie, young balding guy looking for solutions? A bit odd seeing such a detailed, thought-out, comprehensive (1st) post on a forum (not to mention controversial). ----------- *A Follicles Dying Wish To Clinics* 1 top-down, 1 portrait, 1 side-shot, 1 hairline....4 photos. No flash. Follicles have asked for centuries, in ten languages, as many times so as to confuse a mathematician. Enough is enough! Give me documentation or give me death! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member lost my swagger Posted October 2, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted October 2, 2009 Originally posted by thanatopsis_awry:A worthy adversary to replace the now antiquated LLLT debates...lol.... You sure you're just some random newbie, young balding guy looking for solutions? A bit odd seeing such a detailed, thought-out, comprehensive (1st) post on a forum (not to mention controversial). dr feller is gonna do plenty of speculation into the OPs character and who feller thinks has "sent jimjohnson here to destry him".. that how feller rolls. the man has never been wrong you know that.... i will say this.. no matter who the OP is, he is not the only person out there who feels this way about fellers PRP at this point...and while i personally dont agree fully with JJ, it WOULD be nice if feller would document his PRP better like hes expressed he would... its been many months now and hes had MANY patients of whom have paid 600 to 800 bucks for this treatment... im really hoping we dont hear from feller that ALL of these guys have simply refused to share their results. *** RESULTS WILL 100%, without a DOUBT, VARY*** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member thanatopsis_awry Posted October 2, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted October 2, 2009 Ya, I wasn't really impugning OP's charachter -- just curious since it's curious to see such a first post with a lot put into it. It does seems like a bit of a hit job, IMHO, though I suppose that doesn't necessarily negate the things within the post itself. I'm still sitting on the sidelines a bit longer w/ PRP till' a thread like this can come along and it doesn't spook me in any way. ----------- *A Follicles Dying Wish To Clinics* 1 top-down, 1 portrait, 1 side-shot, 1 hairline....4 photos. No flash. Follicles have asked for centuries, in ten languages, as many times so as to confuse a mathematician. Enough is enough! Give me documentation or give me death! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member JimJohnson Posted October 3, 2009 Author Regular Member Share Posted October 3, 2009 Just to clear this up: That IS my first post in this board, I don't have any other account here (or had any). But I've been following this board, especially sind the PRP-Hype started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Jim, I think you've made several valid points, but I want to clear up a couple of things... Dr. Feller isn't claiming PRP works. He's acknowledged that the PRP procedure is still experimental for hair loss and is offering it at his clinic to conduct his trials. Thus, since Dr. Feller isn't actually making any claims of success at this early stage in the trials, the majority of your argument is moot. To be honest however, even though there's nothing ethically wrong with it, I personally don't like the fact that any physician offering PRP is charging for it given that it's experimental and not proven to treat hair loss. But since Dr. Feller has given full disclosure, it's ultimately up to the patient to choose whether or not they want to be participate in the PRP procedure experiment. Though I don't believe for a minute that Dr. Feller is being purposefully deceitful, I've also drawn similar conclusions about many of the photos and am highly skeptical about improvement in such a short period of time. All I ask is that you keep this debate intellectual and don't make personal attacks or insults on Dr. Feller or anyone else. That would be a violation of our terms of service. Debate on... Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member JimJohnson Posted October 3, 2009 Author Regular Member Share Posted October 3, 2009 Bill, I absolutely understand your post. I'm not trying to insult anyone. I just want fairness. If Dr. Feller can say all those things about Dr. Bauman, I guess I'm allowed to confront him about this topic too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Sparky Posted October 3, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted October 3, 2009 I'm sure Dr Feller will be considering his response, and will come in here with all guns blazing, but as its experimental, I think that $600-800 is way to much to charge for this, as its experimental, and if something good does come from it Dr Feller amongst others will make a lot of money from it. I like Dr Feller by the way, he does very good work. My Hairloss Website http://www.hairtransplantnetwork.com/blog/home-page.asp?WebID=2198 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Rachmunas4life Posted October 4, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted October 4, 2009 $600-$800 is much cheaper than I was quote from 3 different surgeons in South Florida. I was quoted $1,000. 20-40% less. Although none of the surgeons could produce pictures. Why would I down lots of money if there aren't pictures of proof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Sparky Posted October 4, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted October 4, 2009 yeah but $600=800 for 25 mins work? what is that all about? My Hairloss Website http://www.hairtransplantnetwork.com/blog/home-page.asp?WebID=2198 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member Buckerine11 Posted October 4, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted October 4, 2009 I understand people's problems with paying for an uncertain procedure, but this cry for photographic evidence is a catch 22 for Dr. Feller - either show pictures and have people claim fraud based on the short timespan, or don't show pictures and have people claim fraud for not having proof. The thing with photographic evidence is this. If PRP was able to stabilize one's hairloss, would you consider it a success? I would. And given that scenario, would photographs of the same head of hair convince anyone of whether or not PRP works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Al - Moderator Posted October 4, 2009 Moderators Share Posted October 4, 2009 Originally posted by Buckerine11: The thing with photographic evidence is this. If PRP was able to stabilize one's hairloss, would you consider it a success? I would. So why is it acceptable if PRP, minoxidil, propecia, etc stabilize your hair loss so that results can't be seen in photos, but not acceptable if LLLT does the same thing? Al Forum Moderator (formerly BeHappy) I am a forum moderator for hairrestorationnetwork.com. I am not a Dr. and I do not work for any particular Dr. My opinions are my own and may not reflect the opinions of other moderators or the owner of this site. I am also a hair transplant patient and repair patient. You can view some of my repair journey here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Severn Posted October 4, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted October 4, 2009 Originally posted by Buckerine11:but this cry for photographic evidence is a catch 22 for Dr. Feller - either show pictures and have people claim fraud based on the short timespan, or don't show pictures and have people claim fraud for not having proof. mmm, unless I'm interpreting their comments incorrectly, what some are complaining about is the way the photos are being presenting. Very "Bosley-esq". Wet hair seperated on the first photos, dry and combed over in the after pics. Although it may have been unintentional. IMO the whole industry needs to go to full HD camera closeup work like H&W does. Otherwise people will always be rightfully suspicious. There was a video here from one of the coaltion docs showing footage of work done on the final result of a guy's HT. It was shot in a somewhat dark room at a distance of about 10-15 feet away. That's a huge red flag even though the work might have been outstanding. The PRP may be a huge breakthrough. The guy in question in the above pics may be showing good progress in person. But all we have to go off of are the pics. My Hair Loss Web Site - Dr. Ron Shapiro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member Ronald Posted October 4, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted October 4, 2009 Yeah, Hasson and Wong rock with their documentation. Hands down the best hair transplant clinic in the world in my opinion (not to disrespect other great clinics but in every field there is always a BEST and in the HT world, H&W are the best because they rock at everything: crowns, hairlines and graft extraction) Now back on topic: Thank you Dr. Feller for having the balls to experiment with PRP....you are working very hard to give us baldies more tools to fight MPB and I am very grateful for that. This thank you goes out to all docs who are trying PRP out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member Buckerine11 Posted October 4, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted October 4, 2009 Originally posted by BeHappy:Originally posted by Buckerine11: The thing with photographic evidence is this. If PRP was able to stabilize one's hairloss, would you consider it a success? I would. So why is it acceptable if PRP, minoxidil, propecia, etc stabilize your hair loss so that results can't be seen in photos, but not acceptable if LLLT does the same thing? I don't really know anything about LLLT, but if it does stabilize loss, then I would consider it an acceptable form of hair loss treatment - as I'm sure most people would also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member Buckerine11 Posted October 4, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted October 4, 2009 Originally posted by Severn:Originally posted by Buckerine11:but this cry for photographic evidence is a catch 22 for Dr. Feller - either show pictures and have people claim fraud based on the short timespan, or don't show pictures and have people claim fraud for not having proof. mmm, unless I'm interpreting their comments incorrectly, what some are complaining about is the way the photos are being presenting. Very "Bosley-esq". Wet hair seperated on the first photos, dry and combed over in the after pics. Although it may have been unintentional. IMO the whole industry needs to go to full HD camera closeup work like H&W does. Otherwise people will always be rightfully suspicious. There was a video here from one of the coaltion docs showing footage of work done on the final result of a guy's HT. It was shot in a somewhat dark room at a distance of about 10-15 feet away. That's a huge red flag even though the work might have been outstanding. The PRP may be a huge breakthrough. The guy in question in the above pics may be showing good progress in person. But all we have to go off of are the pics. Yeah, I think Feller shouldn't have posted those results until it was absolutely clear that PRP was effective. I just think that he gave into the pressure of having to produce something before charging for a procedure like PRP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Severn Posted October 5, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted October 5, 2009 Originally posted by Ronald:Yeah, Hasson and Wong rock with their documentation. Hands down the best hair transplant clinic in the world in my opinion (not to disrespect other great clinics but in every field there is always a BEST and in the HT world, H&W are the best because they rock at everything: crowns, hairlines and graft extraction) Yea, after studying and talking to just about every coaltion clinic, it was down to Dr. Wong or Ron Shapiro for me. It was a dead tie between the two as I considered them both ranked 100 out of 100. EDIT: Edited for less than optimal wording. My Hair Loss Web Site - Dr. Ron Shapiro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member JimJohnson Posted October 5, 2009 Author Regular Member Share Posted October 5, 2009 Guys, please stay Ontopic. I just saw Dr. Feller has been active inthis board in the last few days. I wonder if he will reply to this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Petchski Posted October 6, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted October 6, 2009 Unless he wants to get in to a pointless argument with a guy throwing stuff at him, then I doubt he will bother. Strangely, Dr Feller seems to take more stick from people on this board, who just appear to pop up out of nowhere, than any other doctor here, including the butchers and rip off merchants.... Seems every time I come back on this board to update my story someone is taking a pop at Feller, making unsubstantiated claims of this or that etc......yawn etc.... -------------------------------------- My Hair Loss Website - Hair Transplant with Dr. Feller Dr Feller Jan '09 2000 grafts Dr Lorenzo Dec '15 2222 grafts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member JimJohnson Posted October 6, 2009 Author Regular Member Share Posted October 6, 2009 @petchsky: I think I made valid points, without trying to insult him. Could you tell me which argument you see as "pointless" or "unsubstantiated claims"? My post was focused on the PRP-controversy, not the surgical skills of Dr. Feller. Please, If you had a great experience with him, good for you! But don't defend him about the points I made without bringing up solid arguments yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member ej Posted October 7, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted October 7, 2009 Jim I too think you made Valid points however I think the photos are more of a " continual ongoing update" thats how I see this anyway . I think the Doc "may" take offence at the title you gave this thread just food for thought Regards ej Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member hairthere Posted October 7, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted October 7, 2009 dr. feller does a great job of posting photographic evidence. i'm sure he will do the same with prp as it comes in. I am the owner/operator of AHEAD INK a Scalp Micropigmentation Company in Fort Lee, New Jersey. www.aheadink.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member JimJohnson Posted October 9, 2009 Author Regular Member Share Posted October 9, 2009 I guess he's not gonna respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member brentipold Posted October 9, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted October 9, 2009 no kidding.. and why would he.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member JimJohnson Posted October 9, 2009 Author Regular Member Share Posted October 9, 2009 Originally posted by brentipold:no kidding.. and why would he.. So you think charging 800 dollars for an unprovan treatment with no photographic evidence is alright? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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