Fin $9 at Walmart?

[aaron1234]

So today I went to Walmart to pick up my 3 month supply of generic Finasteride 5 MG. I was expecting to pay the usual $75 or so but only had to pay $9. I was quite shocked. I actually thought they messed the medication. So I checked the bottle and thought ok, cool. I looked at the bag and it had an ad that said 1 month supply of generic prescriptions for $4, and 3 months for $10. I don't know if this is a national thing or not. I remember the day when I was paying $250 for a three months supply of Propecia. Wow.

[Tom60]

you were getting ripped off, man. it kinda makes you think what other things we have been buying that essentially costs nothing...haha.

[aaron1234]

No joke. I don't even want to think about it!

[Sean]

3 month supply for $9? Is that with insurance or without

 

$9 bucks for fin?

[EpilepticSceptic]

I've been paying about $35 for mine for the last 2 years -- no complaints !!

 

What really pisses me off is when I think back about how expensive and hard to get it was 10 years ago!! I had to order from a canadian pharmacy and they needed a new prescription every time. Because it was like this I allowed myself to miss several months out of every year !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Even though I was only an early NW4 pre-HT this year I can't help but wonder how much better off I would be had I 1) always had a consistent supply and 2) been able to start it at age 22 instead of age 30 !!

 

I am almost certain had I started it at age 22 that my genetics were good enough to keep me at a strong NW3 with no crown loss. This is why when I see these young early MPB bucks today saying they'd rather not take fin it makes me laugh at how stupid some of them are. They have it so good compared to what us older guys had to go thru !!

[Megatron]

are you kidding me? I paid $160 for a 3 month supply today!!!! is there anyway to get cheap Fin in Canada???

[TakingThePlunge]

aaron,

 

Thanks for the tip! I've paid about $60 for 90 pills the last two times. I'll definitely check Walmart when it's time for a refill!

[RCWest]

Aaron, does it say on the bottle what brand it is?

[Swimmy]

I've been paying about $35 for mine for the last 2 years -- no complaints !!

 

What really pisses me off is when I think back about how expensive and hard to get it was 10 years ago!! I had to order from a canadian pharmacy and they needed a new prescription every time. Because it was like this I allowed myself to miss several months out of every year !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Even though I was only an early NW4 pre-HT this year I can't help but wonder how much better off I would be had I 1) always had a consistent supply and 2) been able to start it at age 22 instead of age 30 !!

 

I am almost certain had I started it at age 22 that my genetics were good enough to keep me at a strong NW3 with no crown loss. This is why when I see these young early MPB bucks today saying they'd rather not take fin it makes me laugh at how stupid some of them are. They have it so good compared to what us older guys had to go thru !!

 

 

 

I wouldn't call someone who refused to use Fin stupid. There are a lot of side effects. Some of them can be irreversible or required heavy treatment. Or the fact that it can increase severity of cancer. Androgen sensitive hair. That over time it does wear off and you are screwed later on.

[Spanker]

I wouldn't call someone who refused to use Fin stupid. There are a lot of side effects. Some of them can be irreversible or required heavy treatment. Or the fact that it can increase severity of cancer. Androgen sensitive hair. That over time it does wear off and you are screwed later on.

 

There is no evidence that I have heard of that states it "wears off"....yes....over time, your more sensitive hair becomes affecting by the lower amounts of DHT in the body, but that does not mean that the fin is not lowering your DHT....most people (I believe) who start taking it at 30 will have much more hair at 50 then if they had not taken it...even if they do lose some....who is to say where they would be at if they hadn't....that is why twin studies are so great...

 

Anyway...I do think that if you don;t want to take fin because in 10 years it will be less effective and you may start losing hair, then hair loss is not that important to you you and you should not worry about it... my 2 cents...

[aaron1234]

Yes, $9 for a three month supply of Fin. I don't use insurance to purchase Fin. I thought it was great when I paid $90 for a three month supply of Proscar.

 

I imagine this is generic Proscar. The bottle says Finasteride 5MG, so obviously you have to cut them into fourth's to get the approximate 1.25 MG.

 

I think Walmart just started a new ad campaign featuring largely reduced prices for all generic drugs and generic Proscar must be a part of it.

 

What's next? Maybe we can buy Fin in bulk at Sam's Club?

[Swimmy]

There is no evidence that I have heard of that states it "wears off"....yes....over time, your more sensitive hair becomes affecting by the lower amounts of DHT in the body, but that does not mean that the fin is not lowering your DHT....most people (I believe) who start taking it at 30 will have much more hair at 50 then if they had not taken it...even if they do lose some....who is to say where they would be at if they hadn't....that is why twin studies are so great...

 

 

It wears off as you age. As your body becomes more estrogenetic.

 

 

Anyway...I do think that if you don;t want to take fin because in 10 years it will be less effective and you may start losing hair, then hair loss is not that important to you you and you should not worry about it... my 2 cents...

 

 

 

So if someone doesn't take fin they aren't worried about their hair loss? Nice logic. I know plenty of people and other forums that people refuse to take fin. Actually most other hair loss forums refer to Fin as "poison" and yes the % of people experiencing side effects is greatly under exaggerated. There's a lot of people out there taking and doing other things to prevent hair loss other than Fin.

[mahhong]

It wears off as you age. As your body becomes more estrogenetic.

 

 

 

 

 

So if someone doesn't take fin they aren't worried about their hair loss? Nice logic. I know plenty of people and other forums that people refuse to take fin. Actually most other hair loss forums refer to Fin as "poison" and yes the % of people experiencing side effects is greatly under exaggerated. There's a lot of people out there taking and doing other things to prevent hair loss other than Fin.

 

I think some of your beliefs are a bit mistrued regarding finasteride.

 

Firstly, I don't really know about where the idea of being estrogenetic (I assume you mean estrogenic?) comes from. Finasteride works by lowering (not removing) one type of DHT in your blood. This has the net effect of greatly reducing the rate of your hairloss and, with the case of some damaged but not dead follicles, maybe inducing new hair to grow. The best comparison I can think of is your hair being a tree and DHT being ivy. Finasteride removes a lot of DHT from your bloodstream and the net effect is the hair grows stronger and for longer.

 

However, MPB is not that simple. Firstly there are lots of factors contributing to hairloss. There's two types of DHT, for a start, and the probability of numerous other hormonal and genetic issues that create hairloss. Lowering DHT does a great job of helping your hair but it doesn't stop balding.

 

The truth is, however, DHT is still attacking your follicles, albeit in much less problematic amounts. Over time though DHT is still killing your follicles and if you start taking finasteride when you're 20 or 25, by the time you're 50+ it's likely you'll have lost some hair still (although not a guarantee, I must add). That's just mother nature, unfortunately. But your body doesn't build a tolerance to DHT or it has little if anything to do with more estrogen or anything like that. Your follicles are still getting damaged on a daily basis, but the extent of that damage is hugely reduced on finasteride and thus the sort of progress your balding makes in one year might take years longer on finasteride.

 

Secondly, whilst of people have reported problems on finasteride, some extreme, we have no proof of long term of permanent problems strictly due to finasteride. In addition to this the percentage of people experiencing side effects in the real world is, frankly, unknowable. Think of it this way; if just 4 million people on this planet are using fin for hairloss (the figure, I imagine, is a lot higher) and the number of people experiencing side effects was just 2% (the rate Merck suggests) that would mean there would be 80,000 people with side effects. If just 20% of them voiced their concerns on the net (and I imagine the chances are it would be higher) that would be 16,000 people on the net with problematic sexual or other side effects. If you can find me 16,000 individual people complaining about finasteride on the net I'd be very surprised.

 

That's not to say you're wrong, I'm just trying to bring some balance to the argument. Almost every reputable HT doctor on this planet is very happy (and indeed, insistent) to provide finasteride. People aren't dying because of it, or we're not seeing mass cases of infertility, ED or cancer (where you got the cancer idea from I don't know, the only connection between fin and cancer I have ever seen is that it lowers your risk of prostate cancer). I can't speak for the overall effectiveness or risk of using fin, but it is not "poison".

 

I can understand why some people wouldn't want to use fin; it does carry risks (the severity of which are greatly debated) and it is a long term commitment someone may feel uncomfortable with. Many men have taken it for a long time with great results and minimal problems, however, so it is not a drug you can apply a blanket statement to. If you don't take fin, however, you're left with very little choice to combat your hairloss non-surgically. Minoxidil is useful but ultimately not as effective and other treatments (shampoos, spiro, herbs, vitamins, oils etc.) are not proven to have benefit - certainly none of them are going to turn you from bald to brad pitt in one easy move. If you have a HT without drugs you risk further loss in the short to mid term and that can negate the effects of an HT in the first place.

 

I'm not "pro" fin, either. I am going to have to start using it soon but am, like many, quite worried about possible side effects. My concern, however, is a lot of the 'fin haters' come up with all sorts of weird and wacky myths and ideas about how bad it is and most of the time people who dislike fin end up coming up with some unproven or untrue reason why its so bad. The sort of hysterical hatred I see for it usually weakens the argument that fin is risky, not strengthens it. I know that for every one scaremonger who wants to tell the world how bad fin is there are 50 men out there who take the drug, live a normal life, and don't even know about the controversy surrounding it.

 

Ultimately everybody is entitled to their opinion and I do understand yours, but I do feel that some of the "facts" around finasteride are not true and need to be cleared up, lest everybody believes it's some kind of sex drive assassin that only works for a year before turning you into an impotent baldy with no hope of a future.

[Swimmy]

Delete

[Swimmy]

That is a spelling error" Estrogenic"

 

To put it simple. When a male is young his body is Testosterone dominant. As one gets older the spectrum shifts and a male becomes estrogenic. Fin is not good in this circumstance since it can cause a total dominance of estrogen. High estrogen will then result in possible BPH which a lot older men coincidentally experience.

A study conducted by a University of Southern California (USC) medical team found 8 out of 27 high-risk men taking the drug Proscar developed tumors within one year, despite having 67% lower DHT levels. I propose the real problem is not DHT; it is high estrogen levels in the prostate. Proscar lowers the DHT too much and can cause impotency, whereas the beta sistosterol in saw palmetto proved to be twice as effective in restoring urine flow in men with enlarged prostate, without the side effects of impotency. This is because beta sistosterol inhibits androgen receptor binding, while finasteride (Proscar) only reduces 5 alpha reductase. Even though Proscar reduces DHT concentration in the prostate by 80%, it only decreases the prostate size by 18%. Over 63% of men experience no improvement in symptoms using Proscar, even after being on the drug for a year, and over 5% of Proscar users suffer decreased libido, impotence, and ejaculatory disorders

 

 

However, MPB is not that simple. Firstly there are lots of factors contributing to hairloss. There's two types of DHT, for a start, and the probability of numerous other hormonal and genetic issues that create hairloss. Lowering DHT does a great job of helping your hair but it doesn't stop balding.

Yes I know the causes and symptoms. Fin is not a permanent solution it only attacks the symptoms. That's exactly what DHT is, a symptom in the grand scheme of things. Not the cause. I know plenty of people who've completely stopped their hair loss without Minox or Fin . I have part of the answer its just gonna take a lot of discipline to follow through.

 

 

 

 

 

Secondly, whilst of people have reported problems on finasteride, some extreme, we have no proof of long term of permanent problems strictly due to finasteride. In addition to this the percentage of people experiencing side effects in the real world is, frankly, unknowable. Think of it this way; if just 4 million people on this planet are using fin for hairloss (the figure, I imagine, is a lot higher) and the number of people experiencing side effects was just 2% (the rate Merck suggests) that would mean there would be 80,000 people with side effects. If just 20% of them voiced their concerns on the net (and I imagine the chances are it would be higher) that would be 16,000 people on the net with problematic sexual or other side effects. If you can find me 16,000 individual people complaining about finasteride on the net I'd be very surprised.

 

First off when a company does a study on its own product or a unbias source I'd consider it unreliable. It amazes me that some actually accept the Merk studies without question. I know I wouldn't. Their job is to make money. If there's one thing I know its that the medical companies out there are very corrupt and have pushed products on the market before that were dangerous only to be recalled..As if they didn't know the effects to begin with. It happens all the time. ....But yes most people I've met on hair loss forums other than this have told of the horrors of being on Fin. I've found the other forums to be a better indicator of people experiencing sides effects than some study fueled by a companies own interests. But if you aren't experiencing sides on this (whomever) then good for you.

 

 

That's not to say you're wrong, I'm just trying to bring some balance to the argument. Almost every reputable HT doctor on this planet is very happy (and indeed, insistent) to provide finasteride. People aren't dying because of it, or we're not seeing mass cases of infertility, ED or cancer (where you got the cancer idea from I don't know, the only connection between fin and cancer I have ever seen is that it lowers your risk of prostate cancer). I can't speak for the overall effectiveness or risk of using fin, but it is not "poison".

I don't have the site, But you can take my word for it until I can actually find the site again. Research does show that Fin decreases Prostate cancer. But studies have also shown a increase in severity of the cancer. So its sort of a trade off.

 

 

Pharmacopsychiatry. 2010 May 18.

 

Finasteride Treatment Inhibits Adult Hippocampal Neurogenesis in Male Mice.

R?mer B, Pfeiffer N, Lewicka S, Ben-Abdallah N, Vogt MA, Deuschle M, Vollmayr B, Gass P.

 

RG Behavioural Biology, Central Institute of Mental Health, Mannheim, University of Heidelberg, Germany.

 

Abstract

INTRODUCTION: The 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor finasteride is used for the treatment of androgenic alopecia, benign prostate hyperplasia and prostate cancer. Besides inhibiting the conversion of testosterone to the biologically more active 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone, it also inhibits the production of neurosteroids. Decreased neurosteroid levels are postulated to be involved in the pathophysiology of psychiatric disorders such as depression. As neurosteroids metabolized by 5-alpha-reductase influence neural plasticity, we investigated whether finasteride treatment alters adult hippocampal neurogenesis, implicated in the pathophysiology of depression. METHODS: Male C57BL/6N mice were treated subchronically (7 days) with finasteride or vehicle. Adult neurogenesis was assessed at two different time points after treatment (day 1; day 35) using immunohistochemistry. RESULTS: Finasteride treatment led to a significant decrease in brain 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone levels and induced a reversible reduction in the number of newborn cells and young neurons in the hippocampus. 35 days after the last finasteride injection, neurogenesis had returned to normal. DISCUSSION: These data indicate that inhibition of 5-alpha-reductase activity by finasteride treatment influences neuronal plasticity on a structural level. These changes might contribute to the pathophysiology of depressive episodes observed after finasteride treatment. © Georg Thieme Verlag KG Stuttgart · New York.

 

Long term use of finasteride is potential neurodegenerative capabilities. Research has already shown that finasteride promotes a greater likelihood of anxiety and depression. Through the same mechanism, which is a reduction in the production of pregenolone & progesterone the propensity to acquire a neurodegenerative disease, such as early dementia is possible.

 

 

"I'm not "pro" fin, either. I am going to have to start using it soon but am, like many, quite worried about possible side effects. My concern, however, is a lot of the 'fin haters' come up with all sorts of weird and wacky myths and ideas about how bad it is and most of the time people who dislike fin end up coming up with some unproven or untrue reason why its so bad. The sort of hysterical hatred I see for it usually weakens the argument that fin is risky, not strengthens it. I know that for every one scaremonger who wants to tell the world how bad fin is there are 50 men out there who take the drug, live a normal life, and don't even know about the controversy surrounding it.

 

 

 

I don't think I said anything out of line. Or said anything untrue. I never said Fin could kill ya.

 

 

But of you are gonna go on something like this. Its a good Idea to take DIM. It will block the bad estrogen and limit the sides.

[mahhong]

That is a spelling error" Estrogenic"

 

To put it simple. When a male is young his body is Testosterone dominant. As one gets older the spectrum shifts and a male becomes estrogenic. Fin is not good in this circumstance since it can cause a total dominance of estrogen. High estrogen will then result in possible BPH which a lot older men coincidentally experience.

 

Yes I know the causes and symptoms. Fin is not a permanent solution it only attacks the symptoms. That's exactly what DHT is, a symptom in the grand scheme of things. Not the cause. I know plenty of people who've completely stopped their hair loss without Minox or Fin . I have part of the answer its just gonna take a lot of discipline to follow through.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

First off when a company does a study on its own product or a unbias source I'd consider it unreliable. It amazes me that some actually accept the Merk studies without question. I know I wouldn't. Their job is to make money. If there's one thing I know its that the medical companies out there are very corrupt and have pushed products on the market before that were dangerous only to be recalled..As if they didn't know the effects to begin with. It happens all the time. ....But yes most people I've met on hair loss forums other than this have told of the horrors of being on Fin. I've found the other forums to be a better indicator of people experiencing sides effects than some study fueled by a companies own interests. But if you aren't experiencing sides on this (whomever) then good for you.

 

 

 

I don't have the site, But you can take my word for it until I can actually find the site again. Research does show that Fin decreases Prostate cancer. But studies have also shown a increase in severity of the cancer. So its sort of a trade off.

 

 

 

 

Long term use of finasteride is potential neurodegenerative capabilities. Research has already shown that finasteride promotes a greater likelihood of anxiety and depression. Through the same mechanism, which is a reduction in the production of pregenolone & progesterone the propensity to acquire a neurodegenerative disease, such as early dementia is possible.

 

 

 

I don't think I said anything out of line. Or said anything untrue. I never said Fin could kill ya.

 

 

But of you are gonna go on something like this. Its a good Idea to take DIM. It will block the bad estrogen and limit the sides.

 

Firstly, I apologise if it came across I was calling you a liar or a 'fin hater', which I wasn't! I was just speaking generally about the more unbalanced views on finasteride I come across, of which yours is not.

 

I understand what you mean about the testosterone/estrogen balance now. Although it might not be the major factor in side effects/problems with fin, I understand why you think it might be involved now.

 

The study conducted on propecia was in fact an independent study to my knowledge and not conducted by Merck (which I'm sure would not be allowed). Whether or not the term 'independent' is an honest one is a topic for further debate, but similarly I think there should be some general caution when assuming a pharmaceutical company is the 'bad guy'. Yes I agree they are profit motivated but,ultimately, I would still stand by the basic argument that finasteride is a safe drug, or at least that the risk of using it is within acceptable boundaries.

 

Regarding the 'studies' that say finasteride can increase chances of cancer or bring about neuro-degenerative problems I would be very dubious. These allegations may of course be true, but who is conducting these tests? Who is paying large amounts of money to conduct proper, full investigations into the negative aspects of finasteride?

 

In addition to that the fact that propecia has only be officially on the market for 13 years as a hairloss treatment makes me suspicious as to how these allegations can be verified. The accusation of increased cancer is a particularly suspect one. Rigorous testing would have to be carried out on an individual basis to prove definitively finasteride increased the chances of cancer and I don't see how that sort of testing could have been done on a full basis without serious funds. If you can find the test I'd be interested to read it but I'm really dubious about it overall.

 

My main concern with the dismissal of finasteride is really the alternatives people go for instead. I see people who dismiss finasteride as poison but go taking ridiculous amounts of saw palmetto, spiro and lord knows what else; dosing themselves up with herbs and oils. Anything 'natural' can be just as dangerous and unpredictable as anything produced by pharmaceutical companies and the true effects and reliability of these alternative therapies have not been studied or documented thoroughly. I think it's fine to dislike or dismiss finasteride but not at the expense of pumping yourself with a lot of "natural" remedies that could be doing just as much or more harm.

 

Out of interest the people that you know who have stopped their hairloss without fin or minox; would you mind sharing what you know about the techniques and products they used? I'm always interested in hearing alternative regimes and have an open mind about the possibility that there are other effective treatments out there so I'm interested to know more.

[Swimmy]

Regarding the 'studies' that say finasteride can increase chances of cancer or bring about neuro-degenerative problems I would be very dubious. These allegations may of course be true, but who is conducting these tests? Who is paying large amounts of money to conduct proper, full investigations into the negative aspects of finasteride?

I think you misread. It decreases prostate cancer. But increases the SEVERITY of the cancer, if you get it.

 

 

As for depression and neuro degenerative problems

 

"Animal studies suggested that finasteride could alter 5alpha-reductase activity in some regions of the brain, and lead to behavioral and mood changes. It has been shown that finasteride is able to inhibit 5alpha-reductase in medial basal hypothalamus in pregnant rats, and induce behavioral changes [13]. Significant inhibition of hypothalamic and pituitary 5alpha-reductase is also noticed in adult male rats [14]. In addition to animal studies, although there are some case reports suggesting finasteride induction of depressive symptoms and anxiety in humans, [15] but no prospective study has been carried out, in order to investigate finasteride behavioral effects. In the present study, we have investigated any depressive symptoms or anxiety induced by finasteride administration, in the patients with diagnosis of androgenetic alopecia."

 

5alpha-reductase is a critical enzyme in the conversion of several steroids such as testosterone, progesterone, aldosterone and corticosterone in the brain. This enzyme converts testosterone to the most natural potent androgen DHT, and also it acts an important role in conversion of progesterone to dihhydroprogesterone (DHP). DHP is further converted to allopregnanolone (5alpha, 3alpha-tetrahydroprogesterone) by 3alpha-HSD [9,21]. Allopregnanolone is a modulator of gamma amino butyric acid type A receptor (GABA-A), and increases chloride conductance. This neurosteroid has been found to exert anti-convulsant, anesthetic and anxiolytic effects [22-24]. Moreover, change in the levels of allopregnanolone is found to be associated with depressive disorders. [25,26]

 

Our results are in agreement with the past published reports [15], and indicate that finasteride might induce depressive symptoms. The 95% confidence interval, for the difference in the means of the BDI scores, was ranging from 0.34 to 1.04. This shows that the overall change induced by finasteride is minimal, but statistically significant. Anxiety scores were also increased, but the difference was not significant.

 

A decline in serum DHT level occurs after finasteride administration [27]. This may contribute to finasteride induced depression. Some studies have been shown that serum DHT level, which is in equilibrium with the brain [28], is inversely associated with depression. A study by Barrett-Connor E. et al. showed that BDI scores were inversely associated with bioavailable testosterone and DHT level [29]. Furthermore, it was found that DHT had anti-depressant effects on behavior of male rats and its replacement in castrated rats was able to partially decrease the immobility behavior, which is indicative of depression [30].

 

Finasteride induced psychiatric dysfunction can also be attributed to its inhibitory effect on androgen and steroid 5alpha-reduction in the brain. Animal studies suggest that finasteride has inhibitory effects on 5alpha-reduction of testosterone and progesterone in the brain and inhibits the formation of allopregnanolone [31,32]. Allopregnanolone has an important role in depressive disorders [26]. In 1998 Romeo E. et al, revealed that episodes of unipolar major depressive disorder in men is associated with a decline in the plasma concentrations of allopregnanolone [25]. Furthermore, a study carried out by Uzunova V. et al. showed that CSF levels of allopregnanolone were significantly lower in depressed patients, and there was negative correlation between allopregnanolone levels in CSF and HAM-D scores. [33].

 

Since finasteride is a potent 5AR type2 inhibitor and the predominant isoform of the enzyme in human brain is 5AR type1 [34,35], some points should be noted concerning finasteride inhibitory effect on brain steroid metabolism. (i) Although finasteride is a potent 5AR type2 inhibitor, but it has also some inhibitory effects on 5AR type1 [36]. (ii) Finasteride administration in humans has been reported to be associated with some behavioral and mental disorders related to low levels of allopregnanolone in the brain [37]. This may also improve the concept of brain allopregnanolone suppression by finasteride in humans.

This is why I don't trust the Merck study. How could 5 years of studies miss such a obvious symptom and inbalance? I believe the Merck Study has down played a lot of the symptoms associated with Fin.

 

 

 

 

My main concern with the dismissal of finasteride is really the alternatives people go for instead. I see people who dismiss finasteride as poison but go taking ridiculous amounts of saw palmetto, spiro and lord knows what else; dosing themselves up with herbs and oils. Anything 'natural' can be just as dangerous and unpredictable as anything produced by pharmaceutical companies and the true effects and reliability of these alternative therapies have not been studied or documented thoroughly. I think it's fine to dislike or dismiss finasteride but not at the expense of pumping yourself with a lot of "natural" remedies that could be doing just as much or more harm.

 

Saw Palmetto is a effective treatment. Its safe and works similar to Fin.

As the studied quoted

 

BARCELONA—A new study performed by Euromed and published online ahead of print in Advances in Therapy journal found a novel saw palmetto extract (SPE), SPET-085, is as effective as finasteride, the standard prescription drug therapy, in blocking the critical enzyme that leads to benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH), a condition that involves symptoms such as urinary hesitancy, weak urine stream, nocturia, incontinence, and recurrent urinary tract infections.

There are two types of 5α-reductase, the enzymes that irreversibly catalyses the conversion of testosterone to the most potent androgen, 5α-dihydrotestosterone (DHT). The focus of the current study was on type II 5α-reductase, which is found in human prostate tissue. Researchers compared the ability of SPET-085 and finasteride to inhibit 5α-reductase isoenzyme type II in vitro.

SPET-085 inhibited this enzyme at a lower dose than commonly used hexane extracts of saw palmetto. Further, SPET-085 was determined to have bioactivity similar to that of finasteride, the most commonly prescribed medicine for the treatment of BPH; side effects of this drug include decreased sex drive, impotence, or decreased ejaculate amount.

“The results of this study verify the high activity of our novel saw palmetto extract, SPET-085, to help maintain healthy prostate function,” said Joe Veilleux, General Manager, Euromed USA. “Euromed is committed to ongoing clinical research to provide scientific evidence which will differentiate SPET-085 from other saw palmetto extracts.”

"I look forward to seeing if these interesting results in the laboratory translate into better patient outcomes in the National Institutes of Health-funded CAMUS study, an ongoing 18 month clinical trial comparing this saw palmetto supplement against a placebo for urinary symptoms attributed to benign prostatic enlargement," said Michael J. Barry, M.D., Professor of Medicine, Harvard Medical School.

 

As for herbs and such. They are underrated in the fight against hair loss. Its possible just by adjusting your diet and getting the right supplements you can completely halt your hair loss. Again I know people who've done this. I've been to forums where people go this route against MPB and its a purely internal regimen.

 

 

 

If you want all the information you can get on Fin go to this site. Its loaded with studies and feedback and is very informative. I'm not sure if we are

 

PROPECIAHELP: Unresolved Finasteride Propecia Proscar side effects info & forum

 

There should be a lot of useful information at their forum to

 

As for the last part I'll reply in a new post

[Swimmy]

 

Out of interest the people that you know who have stopped their hairloss without fin or minox; would you mind sharing what you know about the techniques and products they used? I'm always interested in hearing alternative regimes and have an open mind about the possibility that there are other effective treatments out there so I'm interested to know more.

 

Before I post what they take. I'll post some of the science behind MPB. What the real Causes are that trigger DHT to attack hair follicles and the mechanisms.This is back by Science research. So its pseudo nonesense. If you want to check the links. I wont post all of it cause theirs a lot. As said I'll link you then.

 

 

 

Studies show that men who experience advanced balding under the age of 35 tend to have high blood insulin levels. Additionally, there is a strong prevalence of insulin resistance with androgenetic alopecia.

Lancet. 2000 Sep 30;356(9236):1165-6.

Chronic elevations of insulin result in increased circulating levels of Insulin Growth Factor-1 (IGF-1) and lower levels of Insulin like growth factor binding protein 3 (IGFBP-3).

 

J Am Acad Dermatol. 2000 Jun;42(6):1003-7.

 

 

J Am Acad Dermatol. 1999 Feb;40(2 Pt 1):200-3.

 

 

When we eat, our blood sugar is suppose to rise, yet when we eat foods that are high glycemic, more insulin is needed to convert sugar into fat (Triglycerides). Higher and higher blood sugar levels, due to chronic ingestion of high glycemic foods could lead to insulin resistance. A few very notable studies have shown correlations between insulin resistance and balding, as well as heart disease, which is also "positively" associated with insulin resistance.

 

The higher our triglyceride count is, the more of a fatty build-up occurs in the liver, hence the more of a prevalence of high triglycerides in the blood. High density lipoprotein (HDL), also known as the "good" cholesterol carrys triglycerides in the blood to the liver. If it exhibits this action frequently, your HDL levels will be low as a result. One of the functions of the liver is to remove insulin from the bloodstream. However the more triglycerides carried to the liver via HDL (leading up to a fatty liver) the less efficient the liver is at removing the insulin from the blood stream.

 

As a result, the pancreas has to release more insulin to lower the blood sugar, hence triglyceride levels go up, the livers fatty deposits build up, more insulin is needed, which acts on the fat cells (called adipocyte differentiation) and the brain as a feedback loop to make you crave more insulin producing foods.

Chronically elevated glucose levels lead to increased cortisol release and a cascade of inflammatory cytokines, a rise in Reactive Oxygen Species (ROS) which has been shown to be elevated in balding dermal papilla cells.

Hair follicle regeneration are dependent upon a complex series of cross-talks involving cytokines from dermal papilla cells via paracrine and autocrine mechanisms. These are mitogenic substances influenced by way of hormonal signaling.

 

 

British Journal of Dermatology Volume 154 Page 609 - April 2006

 

 

 

 

Live longer and grow your hair by reducing your insulin levels.

 

 

 

Lowering your insulin isn't everything, yet it is fundamental for everything else you do. Insulin, as a matter of speaking is the "hormone of death." A study on mice revealed an interesting finding. Genetically altered mice rendered in a manner that allowed their fat cells to be unresponsive to insulin, ate as much food as they desired. Despite that, they remained thin. While they actually consumed 55 percent more food than the control mice, they had 70 percent less body fat than the control group. Additionally, the genetically altered mice lived 18 percent longer than the control mice. This study shows control of insulin is probably why calorie restriction helps with life extension. However, it is the insulin control that is important, not necessarily the the amount of food consumed. Insulin release is stimulated in response to grain, starch and sugar consumption.

Extended Longevity in Mice Lacking the Insulin Receptor in Adipose Tissue

Science 299 (5606): 572-574

 

 

 

While insulin resistance is a driving force of male pattern baldness, the underlying cause maybe thyroid problems, and or hypothyroidism.

Thyroid problems, both hypothyroid and hyperthyroid are epidemically undiagnosed. This is because the standard thyroid test, known as thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) is not a reliable indication of thyroid status, except in advanced cases. The reason is due to thyroid hormone resistance, in which tissues are insensitive to thyroid hormone.

 

Under performing thyroid is strongly correlated with elevated Lipoprotein(a) which is not only linked with androgenetic alopecia, but appears to be linked with Dickkopf-related protein 1 (DKK-1), a gene that is significantly upregulated in balding scalps.

 

Both insufficient and excess levels of thyroid hormones T3 and/or T4 can result in hair loss. For example, T4 prolongs the duration of the hair growth phase (anagen) possibly due to the down-regulation of TGF-beta2.

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Nov;93(11):4381-8.

[Swimmy]

But here's what his regimen is like and what I'm currently on as well

 

 

Ecklonia cava extract, one 400 milligram capsule morning and evening

Caution: Avoid other brands, must be from Nutricology only!

One capsule of Curcumin 95 taken with largest meal only

Take a thousand milligrams of Krill Oil once or twice per day

100 milligrams per meal Bio-Enhanced Na-RALA*

see notes below.

1000 milligrams per meal; target three times dailyAcetyl L-Carnitine

Update* Vitamin D3 (5,000 IU) + Vitamin 90 mcg K2 as MK-7, take once per day,

take less frequently if season and latitude apply

5,000 (5 milligrams) of Biotin (essential if Lipoic Acid is used)

 

Ancillary/Supplemental

 

200 milligrams once per day trans-Resveratrolworks as an adjunct to Curcumin

to neutalize neurotrophins

Update* Selenium with Sulforaphane once daily

 

Brewer's Yeast (food based B-vitamins) take a few per meal

Jarrow EPS Probiotic

1000 milligrams of Magnesium (mixed forms) daily

 

Green Tea Phytosome, one 250 milligram capsule per day

Update* Several drops of Iosol per day in water daily

Formerly taking 400 milligrams of Chasteberry per day.

225 milligrams daily of Sensoril, Patented Ahwagandha extract

Edited September 18, 2010 by Swimmy

[Swimmy]

One last piece for now

 

 

 

Hair loss is not just rooted in DHT. DHT stimulates TGF-B1, which stimulates collagen enzymes, which further stimulate apoptosis. Cytokines such as Tumor Necrosis Factor alpha, ROS (Reactive Oxygen Species), Superoxide, Prostaglandin imbalances and stress hormones, prolactin, HTPA and other factors play an important role as well. Moreover, diet plays a strong role in how much additional DHT and the above mentioned factors will be allowed wreak havoc on your hair. Much of this is due to the inflammatory nature of adulterated and/or processed foods.

If you doubt the veracity of my statement concerning diet, try eating packaged, convenience foods day after day, especially those loaded with hydrogenated oils, sugar, fructose, corn syrup, enriched, bleached flour-based ingredients. What you may find is that in as little as days, a strong prevalence of newly formed acne can result, and some notice of disturbance of the skin on the scalp.

Refined starches and sugars, processed oils, margarines, trans-fatty acids throw a wrench into healthy prostaglandins, enzymes related to skin and hair, liver health, hormonal balance, and various metabolic functions critical to health. Also, due to commonly over prescribed anti-biotics (Greek for anti-life), yeast overgrowths produce acetylides and other toxic substances, which result in Candida overgrowth. An imbalance in intestinal microflora gives rise to hormone imbalances. Please visit the physiology page for more information on Candida overgrowth, since this factor alone can prevent any benefit from the regimen from working.

A protein upregulated in balding scalps called DKK-1 is also triggered by DHT. Some research suggests that DKK-1 levels can be buffered by lowering Lp(a) levels. The most effective way to do this is to insure that thyroid hormone is balanced. I hypothesize that male pattern baldness is actually a result of thyroid hormone imbalance. Both insufficient and excess levels of thyroid hormones T3 and/or T4 can result in hair loss. For example, T4 (thyroxine) prolongs the anagen phase possibily due to the downregulation of TGF-beta2.

 

While thyroid problems are largely undiagnosed, even if they are a large proportion of these patients only receive synthetic T4, which can cause hair loss. However patients do much better when taking natural T4 and T3 (Triiodothyronine). It is estimated that as many as 70% of the world (perhaps more) have less than optimal levels of iodine. Note that iodine is required for proper conversion of T3 from T4. Complicating matters, since most patients only receive synthetic T4, this can inhibit iodine levels further. If you're willing to experiment, I would suggest taking 50 milligrams of lugol's solution daily. The easiest way to acheive this is by adding 8 drops of 5% Lugol's solution to your daily water intake.

To manage most factors critical to staving off hair loss, covering the following areas are most important:

 

 

• Reducing insulin producing foods or the impact of such foods on glucose and insulin.
  
• Controlling over expressed DHT
  
• Removing heavy metals
  
  
• Correcting metabolic conundrums
  
  
• Reducing oxidative stress
  
• Improving glucose metabolism
  
• Optimizing thyroid function
  
• Normalizing estrogen metabolism
  
• Balancing prostaglandins
  
• Curtailing inflammation
  
• Balancing intestinal microflora
  

 

Taking Curcumin to reduce TGF-B1 andEcklonia Cava to combat MMP-9 (Matrix Metalloproteinase), also referred to as Gelatinase B) stimulation is very important. Both Curcumin & Ecklonia Cava do so much more and will radically reduce inflammation. Stabilized R-Lipoic Acid (with Biotin will increase the body's antioxidant defense system and improve glucose and insulin regulation).

Balancing out prostaglandins is just as crucial as reducing oxidative stress. Krill oil is a very convenient way to supplement the diet to achieve optimal essential fatty acids to improve prostaglandin balance.

Other sources of essential fatty acids include Fish oil, Cod liver oil, Borage Oil, and Black Currant Oil. Note: The only cod liver oil worth purchasing as of this writing is Blue Ice Fermented Cod Liver Oil. The reason is due to "modern" distillation methods which have removed the natural balance of Vitamins once contained in it.

Managing stress can be difficult, and what follows stress can be neurogenic inflammation. This maybe the most rapid way to lose one's hair. Adding resveratrol along with curcumin can help combat this type of inflammation.

Acetyl L-Carnitine is very helpful in reducing stress and the associated rise in cortisol. Keeping a lid on this hormone will help preserve hair, as cortisol levels are increased due to stress, hair follicle levels of CRH (Corticotropin releasing hormone) which is a hypothalamic hormone that is responsible for secretion of Adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) can spell disaster if it's not controlled. A very useful aid in controlling cortisol isAshwagandha as Sensoril, a patented form that helps balance out copper levels as well; a potentially critical contributor to hair regrowth.

[mahhong]

There's some interesting information in the articles you've posted Swimmy, but in my opinion there are some big issues in those presentations too.

 

Firstly, I don't really see how Saw Palmetto could be a 'safe' DHT inhibitor. It has to border on common sense that if finasteride causes side effects it's the lowering of DHT itself which is the problem? The major difference between finasteride and Saw Palmetto is that SP decreases two types of DHT - including one found in the brain (it's exact usage is unknown but it's commonly concluded it must have a use if it's in the brain). To that extent Saw Palmetto would seem the riskier option to me - especially when combined with the knowledge that extensive testing has not been done on it.

 

I also feel there are some problems with the studies you provided. Although they are interesting and I don't doubt there may be some validity in them, there are problems in the studies themselves. For example the study related to insulin looked at just fifty one men, all over the age of 65. That is nowhere near a big enough cross section to prove or disprove anything.

 

And therein lies the problem with many of these studies. Just because a study 'finds' something that does not make it proven. Studies cost a lot of money over a long period of time. Most of these sorts of studies take the form of small sample studies, where under a 100 people are examined over a short period of time (maybe a year or so). Whilst these studies might find trends and might suggest ideas, they don't provide comprehensive data.

 

The independent propecia study looked at 1,553 between the ages of 18-41 over a five year period. Again, we can debate whether the study really was independent (although I have no reason to suspect it wasn't) but the fact remains that it was a large, long term study looking at a broad cross-section of males. The vast majority of supposedly contradictory studies usually look at either animals (which, although can be useful, are not a like-for-like contrast to humans) or a very small group of humans. If a study is to be serious it needs to be much larger in scope.

 

The other thing is Merck have tested many drugs in a similar fashion, lots of which have not become approved. Whilst I cannot prove one way or another that Merck have any influence on independent studies it's hardly like they're bringing out all sorts of weird and wonderful treatments for a range of issues. Propecia was legitimately FDA approved and we could theorise over conspiracies which can never been proven of disproven, but ultimately I think it unlikely Merck managed to release a dangerous drug into the international marketplace illegally.

 

As I say, I'm not a finasteride apologist and am keeping an open mind about whether it does have darker side effects or more prevalent problems than often reported. I do know, however, for the millions of men taking fin, a very small amount of them report serious and irreversible problems. There is no pandemic of finasteride induced ED and infertility, although there are enough reported problems to think seriously about using it I do concede.

 

The supposed link between MPB and insulin seems unlikely in my opinion. Although I admit I have not looked at the trials you posted in a lot of detail I fail to see a major link between insulin and MPB. I mean, for a start, surely diabetics with low insulin levels would fare better in the hair department? I know you say insulin isn't the only factor but if it was that important surely we would see a more obvious link.

 

As I say, I do find these reports interesting but they don't really convince me. I have no doubt eating properly and good vitamin supplementation will help keep your hair healthy and possibly keep more of it but it strikes me as odd that some people are happy taking half a ton of herbs, oils, vitamins and turning their diet upside down but won't consider using finasteride. I know plenty of people who eat terribly, have awful skin and are greasy but have a thick head of hair and are in their 30's or 40's. I don't think the answer lies in that direction, personally.

[Sean]

Aaron, thanks for the valuable information. it's going to help me save tons of money. I was about to consider propecia in its original form with that coupon the merck company is giving out on their website, but even with that coupon it's hundreds of dollars more. By taking this route, you can't beat $40 per year on generic finisteride. That's a steal as compared to around $700 per year.

 

Thanks a lot.

[Swimmy]

There's some interesting information in the articles you've posted Swimmy, but in my opinion there are some big issues in those presentations too.

 

 

Firstly, I don't really see how Saw Palmetto could be a 'safe' DHT inhibitor. It has to border on common sense that if finasteride causes side effects it's the lowering of DHT itself which is the problem? The major difference between finasteride and Saw Palmetto is that SP decreases two types of DHT - including one found in the brain (it's exact usage is unknown but it's commonly concluded it must have a use if it's in the brain). To that extent Saw Palmetto would seem the riskier option to me - especially when combined with the knowledge that extensive testing has not been done on it.

 

 

 

You assume there are no studies on it . The link below contains many Including saw palmetto. So far there seems to be very little risk in its use compared to Fin. There are some studies on the risks. But basically any DHT blocker is gonna have issues.

 

National Center for Biotechnology Information

 

 

 

I also feel there are some problems with the studies you provided. Although they are interesting and I don't doubt there may be some validity in them, there are problems in the studies themselves. For example the study related to insulin looked at just fifty one men, all over the age of 65. That is nowhere near a big enough cross section to prove or disprove anything.

 

 

 

I provided only one study. It doesn't mean its the only one.

 

The supposed link between MPB and insulin seems unlikely in my opinion. Although I admit I have not looked at the trials you posted in a lot of detail I fail to see a major link between insulin and MPB. I mean, for a start, surely diabetics with low insulin levels would fare better in the hair department? I know you say insulin isn't the only factor but if it was that important surely we would see a more obvious link.

 

 

You wouldn't see a obvious link Because the medical industry keeps pointing at DHT as the main culprit when it really isn't. The mainstream is too focused on blocking DHT and not addressing the underlying problems. Just like most medicines do. Treat the symptoms but not the cause.. Now its not just insulin that plays a role in hair loss. There are many factors.

 

 

As I say, I do find these reports interesting but they don't really convince me. I have no doubt eating properly and good vitamin supplementation will help keep your hair healthy and possibly keep more of it but it strikes me as odd that some people are happy taking half a ton of herbs, oils, vitamins and turning their diet upside down but won't consider using finasteride. I know plenty of people who eat terribly, have awful skin and are greasy but have a thick head of hair and are in their 30's or 40's. I don't think the answer lies in that direction, personally.

 

 

Its not just the benefits of keeping your hair by turning your diet upside down and take supplements. But living a overall healther, longer and more energetic lifestyle as a bonus. Also, the people who have gone full out on the regimen find that they have little use for Fin..Since they are addressing the underlying cause..But not all the answers are known. Its trial and error and where the site is today took a group effort of information and research find what works and what doesn't and giving their experiences.

 

You are also forgetting the genetic factor. What makes some more vulnerable to hair loss than others. So someone with low insulin doesn't correlate to anything factual but a broad generalization. A greasy, fat, 30 year old can have a full head of hair because of their genetics.

[Swimmy]

I'll try and provide some more quick knowledge on Insulin.

 

While early male pattern baldness or premature, androgenetic hair loss is often cited as "genetic," studies show that men who experience advanced balding under the age of 35 tend to have high blood insulin levels. Additionally, there is a strong prevalence of insulin resistance with androgenetic alopecia. (Lancet. 2000 Sep 30;356(9236):1165-6.)

It is widely accepted that male pattern baldness progresses with advancing age, and with that brings on a breakdown of many of our body's antioxidant defenses. This means tissue is more subject to free radicals, which can impair circulation and create inflammation.

Insulin resistance or high blood insulin levels is brought on by high levels of free radicals, known as reactive oxygen species (ROS). Using an array of potent, natural, free radical fighters can decrease insulin resistance significantly. (Nature. 2006 Apr 13;440(7086):944-8.)

It is also known that those who suffer from male pattern baldness have higher levels of free radicals in their scalp sebaceous glands. (J Invest Dermatol. 1996 Aug;107(2):154-8.)

Diet certainly plays a role, as processed foods encourage the influx of free radical formation in our bodies.

This is especially the case with refined vegetable oils and processed, grains and sugars. Refined vegetable oils not only increase free radicals, they also increase levels of the enzyme 5-alpha reductase, which helps the body make DHT. Levels of DHT are also increased when insulin in the blood is rising. Simple, refined carbohydrate easily breaks down to glucose, raising blood insulin levels. (Reprod Biol. 2002 Nov;2(3):277-93.)

Managing to balance blood glucose and insulin levels is an important to step to help halt the progress of hair loss. Some species of plant extracts offer very powerful antioxidant protection, far greater than what is found in ordinary fruits and vegetables. Additionally, there are inexpensive dietary supplements that help increase your body's own antioxidant defenses.

The organ system involved with hair growth is extremely complex. Ensuring that each and every factor contributing to your hair loss must be adequately resolved before significant hair regrowth can occur.

[Swimmy]

 

Simple explanation

 

I believe that the testosterone/DHT theory is true. However, it is only part of the picture. I believe that high levels of insulin, and even worse insulin resistance are the core cause of this conversion

 

High levels of insulin significantly lower if not totally cut off two other hormones. Glucagon and Sex Hormone Binding Globulin. Glucagon is basically insulin’s adversary, also produced in the same part of the pancreas. Glucagon removes artherosclerotic plaques, lowers triglycerides and improves overall blood flow.

 

SHBG is the more important thing relating to hair loss though. Without it, testosterone is “free”, free to be converted into DHT or be used by the body for its other important uses. When SHBG is not in the blood stream in the quantities the body normally would require, I am of the opinion that allot of this excess free testosterone is then converted in the scalp to DHT. It has been shown that BOTH free T and DHT adversely affect hair follicles. More SHBG means much less free T.

 

People will come back at me with the fact that 1. many balding people are not actually insulin resistant. and 2. some insulin resistant people are not balding.

 

My responses would be 1. Some people are obviously less tolerant of high insulin levels than others and 2. this is where the genetic factor of baldness comes in. The androgens.

 

The people who are insulin resistant but are not balding lack the Alpha reductase and androgens to convert t to DHT locally. If you have elevated insulin levels, and DO have the capacity to convert T to DHT locally, you will bald.

 

This, I believe, is the connection between insulin resistance syndrome and male pattern baldness. Remember with insulin resistance you have astronomically high amounts of insulin in your system because you are eating a very high carbohydrate diet which would shoot your insulin levels up too high anyway, and your cells are to whatever degree resistant to its effects, so the pancreas has to produce more and more and more for the cells to utilize the blood glucose for energy.