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First PRP treatment in New York-Dr. Alan Feller


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Dr. Feller is the only esteemed clinic I know of who offers it as an actual treatment to fight MPB. Dr. Cooley, I believe, utilizes PRP, but from what I know it is part of his HT protocol, particularly in regard to "bathing" the grafts in it.

 

I keep getting sidetracked, but I still intend on inquiring into PRP for myself, especially before I move in February. I'll of course report back with any and all of my findings.

-----------

*A Follicles Dying Wish To Clinics*

1 top-down, 1 portrait, 1 side-shot, 1 hairline....4 photos. No flash.

Follicles have asked for centuries, in ten languages, as many times so as to confuse a mathematician.

Enough is enough! Give me documentation or give me death!

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i am having PRP in just over 2 weeks at dr rogers clinic in the UK - at the very least i will keep people updated with regular posts - if dr rogers takes pics before hand i will gladly post them and try to post pictures every month, i want people to know whether PRP will work for us or not

 

if people are interested i am somewhere between an NW2 to an NW3

 

:-)

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Originally posted by captaincaveman:

Thats interesting to know, i didn't realise there was another dr here doing it. Howcome he can do it and not feller i wonder? How much is he charging?

 

i think he is charging around ??500 - i dont think i can post the website details on here but i can pm people if they are interested

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I think it's a little unfair to labal this a failure because Dr Feller hasn't posted in quite sometime. Sure it would of been nice to hear from him but he may be busy with other things.

 

I am having PRP in less than a week and I have already stated that I will keep people updated with progress - if anybody has any questions I am willing to at least try and answer them.

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I understand a lot of the skepticism about PRP, but I have just undergone two PRP treatments through Dr. Joe Greco and I feel like they do in fact work. I am new to this forum, however, I am very active and known through another forum, if anyone wants to check on my other posts. My username is: iwannakeephair1674

 

I think that there are way too many people focused on the "awe factor" on this forum and not appreciate what PRP actually does. I will give a little history of my hairloss regime.

 

I am a 22 year old male and first noticed early signs of hairloss at age 19. When I first noticed hairloss I got on Propecia, lasercomb, and Nizoral Shampoo for a year. I used this for a year with pretty good results, and then I upped my dosage of finasteride incrementally to where I currently am at 7.5 mg Finasteride daily. I take 5mg at 7am and 2.5mg at 7pm. Many people ask why I do this and the reason is because the half-life of Finasteride is 4 - 6 hours and I want at least 1mg of Finasteride flowing through my body at all times. The reason being is because I want to safely inhibit as much DHT as possible. Now those might question it's safety, however, I've had my bloodwork checked and upped my dosage incrementally to see how my body is responding, including my liver plus having constant communication with my doctors. Now the reason I believe it is safe is for a couple of reasons:

1) I get myself checked out (bloodwork) pretty frequently

2) During FDA testing, there were safe dosages up to 100mg of Finasteride taken safely daily.

3) Older men take the full 5mg Finasteride (Proscar) without a problem, 2.5mg is not much more

4) People who take .5mg of Dutasteride inhibit more DHT than my 7.5mg of Finasteride, plus the long half-life of Dutasteride causes a LOT more accumulation of the drug than Finasteride does.

5) I consulted two doctors with this and they were on board and had good communication with myself and I understood the potential risks.

6) Finasteride is generally known to be safe because it only inhibits 5-alpha-reductase Type 2, rather than Dutasteride inhibiting both types of 5-alpha-reductase, which the importance of 5-alpha-reductase type 1 is still questionable

7) I already had a full year on Propecia with no side effects, so my body responded well with Finasteride and I felt confident in myself that it would be worth the potential risk.

 

-Now I'm in NO WAY suggesting anyone else does this, this is just what I felt might be best for me.

 

-I'm a big person on maintaining the hair I have because I am very thankful for the head of hair God gave me. I have used the lasercomb since the beginning (still do) but I figured that it cannot hurt any and if it helps in the least bit of maintaining, then it's worth the one time fee of $500. Since I have been using it from the beginning, I cannot pinpoint exactly if it works or not because it could have been the Propecia I was taking, but again it can't hurt.

 

Alright that describes a little of my history and now I will talk about my experience with PRP.

 

I had my first PRP treatment with Dr. Greco on June 23, 2009, and I had him focus mainly in the frontal region where hair is more stubborn much like it is with Finasteride (because the frontal hairs probably has more androgen receptors than the back). Since then I noticed about a 10% increase in thickness and lighter hairs turning slightly darker. Also, new baby hairs have emerged that wasn't there before. Now if you looked at my pictures at (promotional link removed) (although I never had a transplant) you won't see a "shock factor" much like MOST people would not have a "shock factor" with a proven treatment like Finasteride. But if PRP can give similar results of what Propecia provides, then that makes it worth it alone. If it is able to maintain your hair than that is a miracle within itself. We KNOW that Finasteride works for hairloss, yet time and time again people don't really see much of a difference, because it's mostly used for maintaining, but yet we don't question the validity of it, because of research.

 

Now, I feel like Dr. Greco has been doing the right steps in researching and don't really appreciate the harsh criticisms people give without having all of the facts. I believe he's been doing the best he has from what he had been given due to the following reasons:

1) he conducted studies with the little money that was granted to him through the IAHRS

2) he has been completely open with all doctors coming to him and sharing his experience

3) he pushed it to go through a LARGE study through the IDE at one of the most renowned Dermatology places in the world located in Italy

4) he is completely open that it's still experimental, and is very upfront in the beginning about this treatment.

5) Some people question him because of the fact he charges money, but people must take into consideration, the supplies cost money, the centrifuge costs money, his staff costs money to perform the procedure, HIS time costs money b/c what would be his opportunity cost if this was completely free?

6) He has truly researched PRP to such great extent, you would realize this if you would talk to him within 5 minutes. He consistently looks at the science of PRP and regularly communicates with experts on the subject and collaborates data with them.

7) He is totally upfront and says that this is experimental and has NOT made any false claims about this treatment.

8) Now I have talked to OTHER patients (who aren't active in the hairloss community) that are happy with their results and they feel like it does work too

 

So all in all, he's HELPING people and is truly genuine, but then there will always be someone to question the good doctors, which I can understand. This industry as a whole caused it on itself with years of deception, but we ARE out of the dark ages IF proper research is done.

 

 

But all in all, I'm NOT the perfect candidate to completely give it's validity because I am, in fact, on other treatments at the same time as PRP. However, my intention was never to prove to others if PRP worked, but it was to benefit my own hair situation. However, is it coincidental that the places I had Dr. Greco focus on with PRP heavily that the hairs got darker and new baby hairs popped up. Plus I immediately noticed less fall-out of hairs, probably due to PRP putting my hair in an early anogen phase(growing phase). Although this is completely by observation and not measured I already expect that most won't believe me, but my sole purpose is to genuinely say (I have nothing to gain from this) that I feel like it DOES in fact work. I personally will continue getting this treatment done every 6 - 8 months as I just have on January 11th.

 

So please whoever researches my pictures on hairtransplantcommunity, please be sure not to get all technical with lighting and all that and the fact that the second set of pictures were taken by a cell phone by me in his waiting room right after the procedure, as my purpose is to just simply give my own experience and opinion.

 

Again, please be not SO quick to judge this technology until more research has come out, because it IS going to be heavily tested and investigated by the Dermatology located in Italy. But all I can say is that I DO in fact feel it has worked on me and I'm satisfied with my results, whether anyone believes me or not.

 

I truly hope this has helped some,

-Destin

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Originally posted by Destin:

I understand a lot of the skepticism about PRP, but I have just undergone two PRP treatments through Dr. Joe Greco and I feel like they do in fact work. I am new to this forum, however, I am very active and known through another forum, if anyone wants to check on my other posts. My username is: iwannakeephair1674

 

I think that there are way too many people focused on the "awe factor" on this forum and not appreciate what PRP actually does. I will give a little history of my hairloss regime.

 

I am a 22 year old male and first noticed early signs of hairloss at age 19. When I first noticed hairloss I got on Propecia, lasercomb, and Nizoral Shampoo for a year. I used this for a year with pretty good results, and then I upped my dosage of finasteride incrementally to where I currently am at 7.5 mg Finasteride daily. I take 5mg at 7am and 2.5mg at 7pm. Many people ask why I do this and the reason is because the half-life of Finasteride is 4 - 6 hours and I want at least 1mg of Finasteride flowing through my body at all times. The reason being is because I want to safely inhibit as much DHT as possible. Now those might question it's safety, however, I've had my bloodwork checked and upped my dosage incrementally to see how my body is responding, including my liver plus having constant communication with my doctors. Now the reason I believe it is safe is for a couple of reasons:

1) I get myself checked out (bloodwork) pretty frequently

2) During FDA testing, there were safe dosages up to 100mg of Finasteride taken safely daily.

3) Older men take the full 5mg Finasteride (Proscar) without a problem, 2.5mg is not much more

4) People who take .5mg of Dutasteride inhibit more DHT than my 7.5mg of Finasteride, plus the long half-life of Dutasteride causes a LOT more accumulation of the drug than Finasteride does.

5) I consulted two doctors with this and they were on board and had good communication with myself and I understood the potential risks.

6) Finasteride is generally known to be safe because it only inhibits 5-alpha-reductase Type 2, rather than Dutasteride inhibiting both types of 5-alpha-reductase, which the importance of 5-alpha-reductase type 1 is still questionable

7) I already had a full year on Propecia with no side effects, so my body responded well with Finasteride and I felt confident in myself that it would be worth the potential risk.

 

-Now I'm in NO WAY suggesting anyone else does this, this is just what I felt might be best for me.

 

-I'm a big person on maintaining the hair I have because I am very thankful for the head of hair God gave me. I have used the lasercomb since the beginning (still do) but I figured that it cannot hurt any and if it helps in the least bit of maintaining, then it's worth the one time fee of $500. Since I have been using it from the beginning, I cannot pinpoint exactly if it works or not because it could have been the Propecia I was taking, but again it can't hurt.

 

Alright that describes a little of my history and now I will talk about my experience with PRP.

 

I had my first PRP treatment with Dr. Greco on June 23, 2009, and I had him focus mainly in the frontal region where hair is more stubborn much like it is with Finasteride (because the frontal hairs probably has more androgen receptors than the back). Since then I noticed about a 10% increase in thickness and lighter hairs turning slightly darker. Also, new baby hairs have emerged that wasn't there before. Now if you looked at my pictures at (promotional link removed) (although I never had a transplant) you won't see a "shock factor" much like MOST people would not have a "shock factor" with a proven treatment like Finasteride. But if PRP can give similar results of what Propecia provides, then that makes it worth it alone. If it is able to maintain your hair than that is a miracle within itself. We KNOW that Finasteride works for hairloss, yet time and time again people don't really see much of a difference, because it's mostly used for maintaining, but yet we don't question the validity of it, because of research.

 

Now, I feel like Dr. Greco has been doing the right steps in researching and don't really appreciate the harsh criticisms people give without having all of the facts. I believe he's been doing the best he has from what he had been given due to the following reasons:

1) he conducted studies with the little money that was granted to him through the IAHRS

2) he has been completely open with all doctors coming to him and sharing his experience

3) he pushed it to go through a LARGE study through the IDE at one of the most renowned Dermatology places in the world located in Italy

4) he is completely open that it's still experimental, and is very upfront in the beginning about this treatment.

5) Some people question him because of the fact he charges money, but people must take into consideration, the supplies cost money, the centrifuge costs money, his staff costs money to perform the procedure, HIS time costs money b/c what would be his opportunity cost if this was completely free?

6) He has truly researched PRP to such great extent, you would realize this if you would talk to him within 5 minutes. He consistently looks at the science of PRP and regularly communicates with experts on the subject and collaborates data with them.

7) He is totally upfront and says that this is experimental and has NOT made any false claims about this treatment.

8) Now I have talked to OTHER patients (who aren't active in the hairloss community) that are happy with their results and they feel like it does work too

 

So all in all, he's HELPING people and is truly genuine, but then there will always be someone to question the good doctors, which I can understand. This industry as a whole caused it on itself with years of deception, but we ARE out of the dark ages IF proper research is done.

 

 

But all in all, I'm NOT the perfect candidate to completely give it's validity because I am, in fact, on other treatments at the same time as PRP. However, my intention was never to prove to others if PRP worked, but it was to benefit my own hair situation. However, is it coincidental that the places I had Dr. Greco focus on with PRP heavily that the hairs got darker and new baby hairs popped up. Plus I immediately noticed less fall-out of hairs, probably due to PRP putting my hair in an early anogen phase(growing phase). Although this is completely by observation and not measured I already expect that most won't believe me, but my sole purpose is to genuinely say (I have nothing to gain from this) that I feel like it DOES in fact work. I personally will continue getting this treatment done every 6 - 8 months as I just have on January 11th.

 

So please whoever researches my pictures on hairtransplantcommunity, please be sure not to get all technical with lighting and all that and the fact that the second set of pictures were taken by a cell phone by me in his waiting room right after the procedure, as my purpose is to just simply give my own experience and opinion.

 

Again, please be not SO quick to judge this technology until more research has come out, because it IS going to be heavily tested and investigated by the Dermatology located in Italy. But all I can say is that I DO in fact feel it has worked on me and I'm satisfied with my results, whether anyone believes me or not.

 

I truly hope this has helped some,

-Destin

 

Thank you for the intelligent and informative addition to this thread.

 

This is exactly what is needed, people giving their experience on PRP, just like I will be doing from next week onwards.

 

If what you say happens for more people, then a lot of folk are gonna be happy very soon.

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Just had the PRP done about 2 hours ago with Dr Rogers, was fine.

 

They took the blood from my arm and did the centri-fuge thingy, then just almost 'dripped' it on my head a little bit at a time and went over it with a roller, did all over my head, felt like constant pin pricks (bit like having a tattoo).

 

They did the front of my head first, then the top and crown aera round the back, had a little bit left over so asked them to do the fornt again and the temples.

 

I know interest is starting to pick up now at the clinic, so I would get in touch asap (if people need the contatc details PM me)

 

Am gonna be putting my pictures up when Dr Rogers sends them back to me.

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Originally posted by Destin:

I understand a lot of the skepticism about PRP, but I have just undergone two PRP treatments through Dr. Joe Greco and I feel like they do in fact work. I am new to this forum, however, I am very active and known through another forum, if anyone wants to check on my other posts. My username is: iwannakeephair1674

 

I think that there are way too many people focused on the "awe factor" on this forum and not appreciate what PRP actually does. I will give a little history of my hairloss regime.

 

I am a 22 year old male and first noticed early signs of hairloss at age 19. When I first noticed hairloss I got on Propecia, lasercomb, and Nizoral Shampoo for a year. I used this for a year with pretty good results, and then I upped my dosage of finasteride incrementally to where I currently am at 7.5 mg Finasteride daily. I take 5mg at 7am and 2.5mg at 7pm. Many people ask why I do this and the reason is because the half-life of Finasteride is 4 - 6 hours and I want at least 1mg of Finasteride flowing through my body at all times. The reason being is because I want to safely inhibit as much DHT as possible. Now those might question it's safety, however, I've had my bloodwork checked and upped my dosage incrementally to see how my body is responding, including my liver plus having constant communication with my doctors. Now the reason I believe it is safe is for a couple of reasons:

1) I get myself checked out (bloodwork) pretty frequently

2) During FDA testing, there were safe dosages up to 100mg of Finasteride taken safely daily.

3) Older men take the full 5mg Finasteride (Proscar) without a problem, 2.5mg is not much more

4) People who take .5mg of Dutasteride inhibit more DHT than my 7.5mg of Finasteride, plus the long half-life of Dutasteride causes a LOT more accumulation of the drug than Finasteride does.

5) I consulted two doctors with this and they were on board and had good communication with myself and I understood the potential risks.

6) Finasteride is generally known to be safe because it only inhibits 5-alpha-reductase Type 2, rather than Dutasteride inhibiting both types of 5-alpha-reductase, which the importance of 5-alpha-reductase type 1 is still questionable

7) I already had a full year on Propecia with no side effects, so my body responded well with Finasteride and I felt confident in myself that it would be worth the potential risk.

 

-Now I'm in NO WAY suggesting anyone else does this, this is just what I felt might be best for me.

 

-I'm a big person on maintaining the hair I have because I am very thankful for the head of hair God gave me. I have used the lasercomb since the beginning (still do) but I figured that it cannot hurt any and if it helps in the least bit of maintaining, then it's worth the one time fee of $500. Since I have been using it from the beginning, I cannot pinpoint exactly if it works or not because it could have been the Propecia I was taking, but again it can't hurt.

 

Alright that describes a little of my history and now I will talk about my experience with PRP.

 

I had my first PRP treatment with Dr. Greco on June 23, 2009, and I had him focus mainly in the frontal region where hair is more stubborn much like it is with Finasteride (because the frontal hairs probably has more androgen receptors than the back). Since then I noticed about a 10% increase in thickness and lighter hairs turning slightly darker. Also, new baby hairs have emerged that wasn't there before. Now if you looked at my pictures at (promotional link removed) (although I never had a transplant) you won't see a "shock factor" much like MOST people would not have a "shock factor" with a proven treatment like Finasteride. But if PRP can give similar results of what Propecia provides, then that makes it worth it alone. If it is able to maintain your hair than that is a miracle within itself. We KNOW that Finasteride works for hairloss, yet time and time again people don't really see much of a difference, because it's mostly used for maintaining, but yet we don't question the validity of it, because of research.

 

Now, I feel like Dr. Greco has been doing the right steps in researching and don't really appreciate the harsh criticisms people give without having all of the facts. I believe he's been doing the best he has from what he had been given due to the following reasons:

1) he conducted studies with the little money that was granted to him through the IAHRS

2) he has been completely open with all doctors coming to him and sharing his experience

3) he pushed it to go through a LARGE study through the IDE at one of the most renowned Dermatology places in the world located in Italy

4) he is completely open that it's still experimental, and is very upfront in the beginning about this treatment.

5) Some people question him because of the fact he charges money, but people must take into consideration, the supplies cost money, the centrifuge costs money, his staff costs money to perform the procedure, HIS time costs money b/c what would be his opportunity cost if this was completely free?

6) He has truly researched PRP to such great extent, you would realize this if you would talk to him within 5 minutes. He consistently looks at the science of PRP and regularly communicates with experts on the subject and collaborates data with them.

7) He is totally upfront and says that this is experimental and has NOT made any false claims about this treatment.

8) Now I have talked to OTHER patients (who aren't active in the hairloss community) that are happy with their results and they feel like it does work too

 

So all in all, he's HELPING people and is truly genuine, but then there will always be someone to question the good doctors, which I can understand. This industry as a whole caused it on itself with years of deception, but we ARE out of the dark ages IF proper research is done.

 

 

But all in all, I'm NOT the perfect candidate to completely give it's validity because I am, in fact, on other treatments at the same time as PRP. However, my intention was never to prove to others if PRP worked, but it was to benefit my own hair situation. However, is it coincidental that the places I had Dr. Greco focus on with PRP heavily that the hairs got darker and new baby hairs popped up. Plus I immediately noticed less fall-out of hairs, probably due to PRP putting my hair in an early anogen phase(growing phase). Although this is completely by observation and not measured I already expect that most won't believe me, but my sole purpose is to genuinely say (I have nothing to gain from this) that I feel like it DOES in fact work. I personally will continue getting this treatment done every 6 - 8 months as I just have on January 11th.

 

So please whoever researches my pictures on hairtransplantcommunity, please be sure not to get all technical with lighting and all that and the fact that the second set of pictures were taken by a cell phone by me in his waiting room right after the procedure, as my purpose is to just simply give my own experience and opinion.

 

Again, please be not SO quick to judge this technology until more research has come out, because it IS going to be heavily tested and investigated by the Dermatology located in Italy. But all I can say is that I DO in fact feel it has worked on me and I'm satisfied with my results, whether anyone believes me or not.

 

I truly hope this has helped some,

-Destin

 

 

7.5mg of fin? For one.. that's overkill... and two, I would think your body is going to become immune to the drug much faster... Plus I wouldn't buy anyone's story of PRP working while on Propecia.. especially because propecia can help thicken up miniaturized hairs as it did with mine at an incredible rate..

 

just my two cents....

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7.5mg of finasteride is a great big whopping dose!!!

 

While I don't believe the effects of propecia decline because you become immune to it (I think its because DHT accelerates hairloss by shortening its life cycle, making you reach your genetic end point sooner - thus propecia reduces DHT and delays the inevitable) - I still think its unwise to be taking 7.5mg of finasteride.

 

This dose is unlicensed, meaning there isn't data to prove it's safe. I would be surprised if any Dr told you to take that dose, unless they made it blatantly clear that its not licensed and if anything goes wrong they have no liability.

 

We all want to keep our hair, but we have to be sensible about things too. That dose increases the risk of side effects and may have long term implications we don't even know about - even 30 years down the line.

 

More finasteride won't necessarly mean more hair - in the summary of product characteristics for propecia it says: "there is no evidence that an increase in dosage will result in increased efficacy".

 

The half-life of finasteride is short, but it is believed to inhibit 5 alpha reductase for 72 hours - hence some HT docs recommend Mon wed fri dosing of 1mg propecia.

 

Patients may have taken upto 400mg of finasteride in the trials, but that was for a few months - not their whole life.

 

I hope you weigh up the info and make your decision.

_________________________________________________

Propecia since July 2008

2201 Grafts with Dr Lorenzo on 19.10.22 - See my write up here:

 

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Just wanted to let everyone know that on Dr Jones's website it says that he is no longer offering PRP treatments as he has not seen satisfactory results from his trial patients.

 

He isn't a coalition member, but credit to him. I think its time for other docs to step up and question whether they are continuing to offer PRP because they actually think it works or just because its the latest craze that brings in 600 bucks a shot.

 

I think we need to end all the PRP hype and look at the evidence.

 

Most clinics have been offering PRP since may/june last year - i think that's more than enough time to guage if it works or not.

_________________________________________________

Propecia since July 2008

2201 Grafts with Dr Lorenzo on 19.10.22 - See my write up here:

 

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I think everyone is taking what I wrote the wrong way. First off, I'm not trying to prove this treatment to people, just telling people my experience, so why are people criticizing me for it? I said this exactly:

 

"But all in all, I'm NOT the perfect candidate to completely give it's validity because I am, in fact, on other treatments at the same time as PRP. However, my intention was never to prove to others if PRP worked, but it was to benefit my own hair situation."

 

 

So I think I made that pretty clear. Also, people who have prostate problems are taking 5mg of Finasteride daily, is 2.5mg more really that much more? I would rather take 7.5mg of Finasteride, which blocks more DHT than 1mg Finasteride, and while still blocking less DHT than .5mg of Dutasteride. Even after telling you that I am constantly being monitored by 2 doctors with bloodwork and other factors you're still questioning me.

 

And the only reason that they approved 1mg Finasteride for hairloss was because the drug company probably wanted to make more money licensing a new dosage of a drug rather then keeping just the 5mg dose (that would lose it's patent sooner), when 5mg Finasteride is known to be more superior.

 

Plus you know the FDA approves anything with the lowest minimal dose that shows effect and not necessarily the optimal. Is 15% Minoxidil more superior than 5% Minoxidil and still safe?

 

Why do you think when people lose ground after being on 1mg they up their dosage and start stabilizing their hair again?

 

Lastly, do you really think that certain doctors would put their reputation on the line, such as doctor Feller, if they didn't really believe in PRP? I mean these are prominent doctors in the industry, and everyone knows that Dr. Feller is one of the BIGGEST skeptics in the hairloss industry. He is NOT the type to jump on board with anything just for money, look at the whole low level laser therapy situation, he didn't believe in the science and didn't support it.

 

I DO believe in PRP and support it fully, not just because of my experience, but to the few people I got to talk to who had it done. Also, remember not all PRP is created equal, there are different ways to process it and deliver it. You must look at certain doctor's reputation and evaluate if their perspective is reputable.

 

I can assure you that both Dr. Feller and Dr. Greco wouldn't be putting their reputation on the line if they didn't believe in this treatment. I really don't know what more you people want, it's already going to be put through the study at the Vatican and analyzed.

 

You have to remember a good amount of doctors that are well respected were not on board at all when Propecia first came into fruition either, now look at how much that is a standard. Like I said before, I personally believe in this treatment, whether you take that with a grain of salt or not it's up to you. However, I did notice that people who actually had this treatment done and posted about it here and were saying somewhat positive results were I guess ignored.

 

I can tell you personally if I didn't believe it worked I wouldn't continue to pay for it and continue to have this treatment done, but I do believe that it does work and I will continue to get this treatment done.

 

I encourage some skepticism in this new technology but don't completely say that you KNOW that this treatment doesn't work unless you personally know. I'd rather someone say they are unsure than basically saying that prominent doctors are liars and they just want your money.

 

Look Guys I know that the hairloss industry in the past was harsh and still is a buyer beware market, but I think we need to all be a little more open if we're going to get anywhere. I'm not trying to rub anyone the wrong way, but I believe that ya'll should be a little more understanding of this treatment. It is going to be tested in a satisfactory way, so wait then for the "known" criticism.

 

 

Destin

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