Regular Member NewHairNow Posted March 13, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 As fars as showing results, I would love to be able to show Armani Fue results. I have several cases with photos but my hands are tied as I am afraid that would be considered promotional for the clinic I represent and against forums regulations. There is nothing I can do about that. Pats205: I have seen those photos that you have. Most of them, in my opinion, are biased with lighting, angles, hair wet, strip results (instead of FUE) etc... What we need are actual hair loss web log from actual patients with details pre-operative and post-operative photos. Why don't you encourage your patients to do it? Better yet, why don't you just start with your own hair loss web log. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member wantego Posted March 13, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 Thank you BANDIDO. I appreciate the kind words you said about me. 4374 grafts-7/2/2008-Dr Rahal 485 singles 2336 doubles 1526 triples 16 quads 9809 total hairs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Pats (Eric), Instead of wasting time asking members to substantiate their claims, why not answer the legitimate questions posed by veteran members of this community? Why do you keep avoiding Pat's question about the contract when it's obvious the information we have contradicts yours? Again, see "Free Hair Transplants for Posting". M&M (among other members) has also asked you a series of legitimate questions without provocation however, you continue to evade them. Also, why does the information you provided on the available donor supply ("Some folks have 6,000 grafts available, some 8,000, some 10,000, but nobody is different and each patient is treated on a case by case basis") contradict claims made previously by Shane that patients have an average donor supply of 15,000 grafts? If your clinic's original estimate of 15,000 average grafts was incorrect, a credible response would be to say "we were mistaken". Frankly, you are being led like a sheep to the slaughter because you are evading answering legitimate questions presented by the knowledgable members of this community. It would be far better for you to simply state you have no interest in answering these questions than it would be to continue to evade them and hype your services. Until you address these legitimate concerns however, you're going to have a hard tiem earning respect and credibility in this community. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member Pats205 Posted March 13, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 Originally posted by Bill - Associate Publisher:Pats (Eric), Instead of wasting time asking members to substantiate their claims, why not answer the legitimate questions posed by veteran members of this community? Why do you keep avoiding Pat's question about the contract when it's obvious the information we have contradicts yours? Again, see "Free Hair Transplants for Posting". M&M (among other members) has also asked you a series of legitimate questions without provocation however, you continue to evade them. Also, why does the information you provided on the available donor supply ("Some folks have 6,000 grafts available, some 8,000, some 10,000, but nobody is different and each patient is treated on a case by case basis") contradict claims made previously by Shane that patients have an average donor supply of 15,000 grafts? If your clinic's original estimate of 15,000 average grafts was incorrect, a credible response would be to say "we were mistaken". Frankly, you are being led like a sheep to the slaughter because you are evading answering legitimate questions presented by the knowledgable members of this community. It would be far better for you to simply state you have no interest in answering these questions than it would be to continue to evade them and hype your services. Until you address these legitimate concerns however, you're going to have a hard tiem earning respect and credibility in this community. Bill Bill, As I stated before, the contract that you put online was a copy of my independent contract. The document explains that I have a responsibility on the forums amongst others... You conveniently left out the portion of the contract that explains that I will appear at all in person consultations wearing a suit, and that I will be assigned an Alvi Armani email etc.... You say the contract was for "paid patients", why would a patient be required to wear a suit? The facts are you were presented with a blank contract that was stolen from our office. The contract is my independent partner contract. Yes there is a penalty if I violate the contract and I accepted those terms. Patients are not paid to post online. If you have any evidence that says otherwise, if you have this signed contract by an Armani patient requiring them to post please present it now. Otherwise I suggest we move on. Eric Patient Care Alvi Armani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member BANDIDO Posted March 13, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 Bill, if you do have an Armani patients signed contract, then simply cover the name and post it in here. If a contract does exist we all need to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member hopefull Posted March 13, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 Originally posted by Pats205: As I stated before, the contract that you put online was a copy of my independent contract. The document explains that I have a responsibility on the forums amongst others... You conveniently left out the portion of the contract that explains that I will appear at all in person consultations wearing a suit, and that I will be assigned an Alvi Armani email etc.... You say the contract was for "paid patients", why would a patient be required to wear a suit? The facts are you were presented with a blank contract that was stolen from our office. The contract is my independent partner contract. Yes there is a penalty if I violate the contract and I accepted those terms. Patients are not paid to post online. If you have any evidence that says otherwise, if you have this signed contract by an Armani patient requiring them to post please present it now. Otherwise I suggest we move on. I dont get it?Are you an independent partner or you work in patient care?Are you a consultant and you go to consultations??? You dont receive money but you will get paid in the end with a complimentary FUE procedure? Its all very confusing?!! Also you ask for people for proof regarding unsattisfied patients but you know there were deleted threads in HLH that are now lost...how can people see them? But on the other hand what is this about consultations and wearing suits?Can we see the full contract? Also from the answer i see that the 15000 grafts claim is not repeated here...thank you for that should we believe everything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Pats, I much rather would have had you offer a viable explanation, but since you requested to see the contract, I've attached it for you and the community to see. The name on the contract has been digitall erased for confidentiality reasons. I can assure you that the name of the patient I digitally erased wasn't yours. Additionally, the contract is very specific and if indeed the contract was for you, then you've already breached your own contract. Paragraph 2, section B specifically states: "The Independent Partner must document his/her progress by providing photos from before/pre procedure, surgery day, bi weekly (every 2 weeks) progress pictures up to 15 months" Additionally, being "paid" refers to compensation, monetary or otherwise. For providing the several marketing tasks as outlined in the contract (including posting photos regularly), the patient is compensated with a free FUE procedure. Paragraph 3 specifically states: "The above marketing contribution will be exchanged for a complimentary FUE Hair Transplant procedure which will be authorised by Alvi Armani once the above has been achieved. There is no equivalent reward for this work I.e. cash or alternative value treatment. Alvi Armani must be satisfied that this ahs been achieved. the procedure will be provided by Alvi Armani in a location and by a surgeon as designated by Alvi Armani" I have really no interest in pursuing this further with you. I only wanted to point out that to win the respect of this community, you'll need to stick to the facts and address the questions and concerns of our members. But since you and other members of this community asked to see the contract, I have provided it below. I hope you were simply confused about the facts and now can confirm whether or not you also signed this contract or one similar to it. Page 1 is attached below and the remaining pages will follow. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Page 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Page 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member PLEASE GROW PLEASE Posted March 13, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 Ive never seen anyone dig themselves in such a big hole and they dont even know it yet Hes already been led to the slaughter just waiting to sharpen the machete. Pats 205 has already lied 2 1/2 times on here to me yet called me a liar when Im being 100% honest. ====================== Farrel I know your reading this thread in shock. You really need to change your avatar from a Phoenix to an ostrich. Youll remain in the fire until you get enough idoits that have no clue about you and what youve done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Eman Posted March 13, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 Bandido- as a new guy to this forum, you should probably be careful in terms of accusing posters being compensated here. This is one site where honesty rules, that is why most of us are here. If anyone senses that someone is a paid poster they are called out on it immediately. I have spoken to many, many of the posters on this site who have had procedures from various docs and guarantee that they are just guys looking to share their experiences and knowledge and not compensated whatsoever. I understand being leery about internet forums, especially if you have been frequenting other HT sites, but please don't generalize about this site as many guys have given a lot of their time to guide guys down or away from the HT path. Look at guys like Bill who posted for years, gratis, and still provides knowledge and fair comments today and is clear (in his sig) that he is now moderator of this site. Sorry for going off topic guys... My initial HT thread: done and done!! Check it out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member Pats205 Posted March 13, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 Yes Bill, What you posted is simply an unsigned copy of my specific contract. Eric Patient Care Alvi Armani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member BANDIDO Posted March 13, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 Eman, I think there are some very honest posters that post on different hairsites. I also don't believe for a second that the Armani clinic is the only HT clinic that might have paid posters or is compensating their patients in some ways. I am not going to come in here and single any member out, but I think it would not be smart to think no other clinics are above doing this. The only person I can honestly trust in here 100% is myself.I hope I have not offended you or anbody else in here,this is how I feel at the moment.I enjoy reading your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Balboa Posted March 13, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 i cannot see anything witch is so DRAMATIC about the contract yes PATS205 is someone who has been given a free HT for basicly WORKING for Armani other people work for Armani get cash what diffrence does it make i have read through the contract and there isnt anything that bad or shocking about it realy businesses have to target all avenues to get customers and asking someone to post there HT results for a free HT isnt shady in anyways i dont see what all the fuss is about Dr A. Armani 2500 Fue Dec 2008 Proscar X1 Day Monixodil X2 Day Msm Daily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Balboa Posted March 13, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 i have also added quite a few photos of 3M period and only 1 person has comented on them due to all this nonsence getting in the way of the topic Dr A. Armani 2500 Fue Dec 2008 Proscar X1 Day Monixodil X2 Day Msm Daily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member PLEASE GROW PLEASE Posted March 13, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 Pat no its not as I saw it also . It not a blank contract its from guys that Armani had sign it . I just starting to think your a pathetic liar OR Armani keeps you in the dark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member PLEASE GROW PLEASE Posted March 13, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 Balboa obviously you havent been around to see what these paid posters are capable of. Also Balboa you did not start this thread so I suggest start a new one devoted to you. Blame your paid rep not anyone else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member Pats205 Posted March 13, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 Originally posted by Balboa:i cannot see anything witch is so DRAMATIC about the contract yes PATS205 is someone who has been given a free HT for basicly WORKING for Armani other people work for Armani get cash what diffrence does it make i have read through the contract and there isnt anything that bad or shocking about it realy businesses have to target all avenues to get customers and asking someone to post there HT results for a free HT isnt shady in anyways i dont see what all the fuss is about Agreed, I asked for proof to validate the claims that we PAY POSTERS to come in and post on forums. All that is presented is a blank version of my independent contract again and again. I'm sorry but that is not enough to substantiate the claims being made. Eric Patient Care Alvi Armani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member PLEASE GROW PLEASE Posted March 13, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 If its your contract then how was it stolen from Armanis office You sure your not Farrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Acrobaz Posted March 13, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 The recent activity on this thread represents the ultimate commendation for this online community. Keep it up guys. Those of you who are (understandably) pressing Pats205 for fuller answers can rest assured that his evasiveness and equivocation leads objective readers like myself to only one conclusion: he doesn't have any answers. Originally posted by Bill - Associate Publisher:Pats, I much rather would have had you offer a viable explanation, but since you requested to see the contract, I've attached it for you and the community to see. If it makes you feel any better Pats, that contract would be wholly unenforceable in the UK. That's one of the most egregious penalty clauses I've ever seen. 17 Feb 09 - 3,200 FUs by strip surgery (Dr Feller) My Hair Loss Website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Pat - Community Publisher Posted March 13, 2009 Administrators Share Posted March 13, 2009 Pats, This contract was signed not by you but by another patient of Dr. Armani's who suffered poor FUE results and is now in the process of having them repaired by a Coalition physician. This patient signed this agreement because he wanted to get his next surgical session for free. However, in time, when he was disappointed with his results and came to feel guilty about being a covert cheerleader for your clinic he came clean and sent the contract to me. I have spoken with him several times on the phone and I know that he was at first very fearful that he would be sued if he came clean and told the truth about the contract he signed with your office. He certainly didn't rip off any contract that you may or may not have signed. Pat's nice try but I don't know who in the world would buy your cover up story. When are you going to come clean and be honest? I had hoped you might have learned a valuable lesson from the lawsuit controversy. But it appears you haven't learned a dam thing and are playing the same old games that earned you and the Armani clinic the wrath of the online patient community. Never Forget - It's what radiates from within, not from your skin, that really matters! My Hair Loss Blog Sharing is what keeps this community vital. Please join in. To learn how I restored my hair and started this community, click here. Follow our Community on Twitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member NewHairNow Posted March 13, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 Originally posted by PLEASE GROW PLEASE:Ive never seen anyone dig themselves in such a big hole and they dont even know it yet Hes already been led to the slaughter just waiting to sharpen the machete. Pats 205 has already lied 2 1/2 times on here to me yet called me a liar when Im being 100% honest. Pats205, How many additional nails you need in the coffin before saying mea culpa? Does Dr. Armani pay you enough in order to suffer such abuse here? I agree with Bill, you already defaulted on your contract. Where are the bi weekly updates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member Capelli Posted March 13, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 This has been an interesting thread which I think is very relevant as it speaks to the credibility of the assertions made by Armani and its representatives. My recollection was that there was an announcement on HLH where Shane acknowledged that Eric (PATS) had become an employee of Armani. That is in direct contradication to the contract that PATS claims is his which states that he is an independent partner and not an employee. Which is it PATS are you an employee or an independent partner? Do you receive cash compensation or just FUE grafts? Do you have the full documentation noted in the contract and if so why not post it to your blog that is suppose to be maintained? On another thread on HLH titled "What's Your Problem with Dr Armani? you describe your role at Armani as follows: I have alot of different duties wantego. I answer general questions on these forums regarding Dr. Armani and the clinic, post op questions from our existing patients who have them, I post patient results on here for people to see, I will answer general questions to all posters as I did before. I also speak to a number of patients per day over the phone prior to their surgery, answering their questions about flying after surgery, post op care, what to expect during surgery, recover times etc. These might seem like easy questions to veterans on here, but to many who are going into surgery for the first time, or to those who have never been on a message board like this where so many questions are answered, they appreciate what I can explain to them and have lots of questions. I also speak with people who have already had surgery. We discuss how they are coming along, what to expect in the coming weeks and months, I will also inquire about pictures, if they are willing to share their results etc... I have seen alot of really great results in person thru the clinic. Some I really wish I could display on here, but we have to follow the wishes of the patient and their right to privacy. You'd be surprised how quickly most are to say no when asked if their pictures can be displayed online. So part of my job is to explain how we use the pictures and how helpful they can be to others etc??¦. My days are pretty full But I do want to be clear, I do not sign people up for surgery and I do not work on any type of commissions. - Pats That is quite different from what is contained in the contract that has been posted. So which is it PATS. Were you lying then or are you lying now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member wantego Posted March 13, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 Pats, I'm not looking to bash you or Dr Armani. Some people might have that as an agenda but I do not. I'd honestly just like the truth good or bad to come out. If this is all a misunderstanding of your own personal contract I would actually be happy because when I heard about this contract it really shook my belief in the whole industry. Now with that said I do have a few questions. If you can please answer them via number so there is no question of what you are answering. 1. Bill said it was another persons name was on the contract. Are there other people in patient care? Could it have been a patient that gave the contract to Bill? 2. Does all the non employee stuff in the contract make any sense for a person working as Dr Armanis patient care representative? 3. Does the no compensation in cash but only via fue sound much like a person working as Dr Armanis patient care representative? Do you work for free other than getting a free FUE transplant? 4374 grafts-7/2/2008-Dr Rahal 485 singles 2336 doubles 1526 triples 16 quads 9809 total hairs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member PLEASE GROW PLEASE Posted March 13, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted March 13, 2009 I jst tried to send you the contract but I saw what you did with your pm . How pathetic . Big ole softy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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