Say it ain't so.

[Oxiborick]

15 hours ago, Pbaird98 said:

Yup, try and get a refund, do what you can and stop any future payments.

They won't be getting any more money out of me. Very sad to hear this. Thought they were my friends practically.

I have autism, too, so I am easier to fool in terms of social stuff than most people. 😐

11 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

There’s no point beating yourself up, if you want send me a private message. I’ll help you. 

Thanks, might get in touch very soon.

8 minutes ago, Pbaird98 said:

What the OP had on Reddit was the overboard response, it’s a much more measured response here thankfully 🙏🏿

Yeah the Reddit people were like "name and shame these scumbags" etc. etc., though they certainly meant well and evidently weren't wrong.

4 hours ago, Berba11 said:

 

As for the work… I can’t fathom what the hell they were even thinking. They’ve given you a very, very sparse hairline area, zero grafts into the midscalp and I suppose decent coverage in the crown, albeit with rows of hairs & no apparent whorl pattern. What a good clinic would have done is tackle the frontal third first, & then address the crown in a second sitting. Given the status of your hairloss as being Norwood 6 going on 7, you’d have been best advised to consider any combo of FUT + FUE + beard and even chest hair as a supplementary donor resource for maximum coverage. 
 

The one doctor I talked to after (the one who would only cryptically say that not all 3800 were successfully delivered) was emphatic that this was very fixable. Also for whatever it's worth every doctor I talked to before the procedure, when my balding reached the point where I hated how I looked, say that I was a Norwood 5 developing into a 6, and one of them jokingly called it a "Norwood 5.5."

12 hours ago, Z-- said:

Tbh, it looks like they took 3.8k, but only implanted half of that max.

That is my impression just eyeballing it. That many extracted, but only about half implanted. 

15 hours ago, Vann said:

16 hours seems like a ridiculous long time. I wouldnt be comfortable with someone working on me that long. If I feel tired I cant imagine how the people working on me would have felt. 

It was over two days, about 8 hours each day.

Two things I can't figure out here:

1) If they were going to scam me, why would they allow me to pay for half and finance the rest? You'd think scammers would just demand everything up front.

2) What the hell happened to half the grafts? Someone accidentally spill them down the sink or something?

Another weird thing is that the surgeon recommended Toppik after the procedure and I joked "I got this surgery so I wouldn't have to dump powder on my head for the rest of my life." I figured she was just offering a friendly suggestion, but now it seems a lot more sinister in retrospect.

So... assuming these ~1750 grafts actually yield (I think they might as they are still growing, so they ain't dead yet at least), will I actually look WORSE because of this procedure? That would be a little hard to take.

[NARMAK]

Firstly OP, i'd like to wish you well on your recovery. That's a big part og the post-op regardless of anything else. 

A lot of people have already said what needs to be said that it isn't matching up with the graft numbers in terms of density etc. and as attentive as the clinic seemed to be etc. it's quite clear, they have no right doing what they're doing with the work you've shown in those images. 

Unfortunately Google Reviews are highly manipulated and so are most other review sites. The clinics usually get bad reviews taken down through legal threats or some other clown methods. 

I think a site like this is built upon sharing experiences and helping steer people away from a similar situation so if you ever feel comfortable naming them, it could save somebody else. 

In terms of the extractions in the donor to implanted sites, there's definitely a mismatch and after enough time has passed, you should go for a professional evaluation of your head to check the donor area and what grafts you have left. You are more than likely going to need to have somebody competent fix the hairline and crown areas. 

What's done is done. There's no reason to dwell and best to try concentrate on your recovery. Reddit can be full of some buffoons but it does appear the mismatch was picked up on accurately. For a place that seems to only specialise in hair, it appears their skills are severely lacking. 

[Pbaird98]

2 minutes ago, Oxiborick said:

They won't be getting any more money out of me. Very sad to hear this. Thought they were my friends practically.

I have autism, too, so I am easier to fool in terms of social stuff than most people. 😐

Thanks, might get in touch very soon.

Yeah the Reddit people were like "name and shame these scumbags" etc. etc., though they certainly meant well and evidently weren't wrong.

The one doctor I talked to after (the one who would only cryptically say that not all 3800 were successfully delivered) was emphatic that this was very fixable. Also for whatever it's worth every doctor I talked to before the procedure, when my balding reached the point where I hated how I looked, say that I was a Norwood 5 developing into a 6, and one of them jokingly called it a "Norwood 5.5."

That is my impression just eyeballing it. That many extracted, but only about half implanted. 

It was over two days, about 8 hours each day.

Two things I can't figure out here:

1) If they were going to scam me, why would they allow me to pay for half and finance the rest? You'd think scammers would just demand everything up front.

2) What the hell happened to half the grafts? Someone accidentally spill them down the sink or something?

Another weird thing is that the surgeon recommended Toppik after the procedure and I joked "I got this surgery so I wouldn't have to dump powder on my head for the rest of my life." I figured she was just offering a friendly suggestion, but now it seems a lot more sinister in retrospect.

So... assuming these ~1750 grafts actually yield (I think they might as they are still growing, so they ain't dead yet at least), will I actually look WORSE because of this procedure? That would be a little hard to take.

Only time will tell, it’s going to be a waiting game. It’s unusual for grafts to grow really early on (not Impossible but unlikely) you could be seeing the scabs shedding and giving the impression they are growing, when they are just being pushed out/shed. 
 

[Oxiborick]

20 minutes ago, Pbaird98 said:

Only time will tell, it’s going to be a waiting game. It’s unusual for grafts to grow really early on (not Impossible but unlikely) you could be seeing the scabs shedding and giving the impression they are growing, when they are just being pushed out/shed. 
 

I actually think I do see some growth of the transplanted follicles, and not just an optical illusion caused by scabs falling off. A Reddit guy who seems to know his stuff I kept in touch with agrees:

[Oxiborick]

Also I do think at least the crown, lack of spiral notwithstanding, does have fairly decent coverage maybe? Well except for the far anterior crown which doesn't seem to have any grafts at all. Here's an "after" pic and one taken just now:

 

[WhiteyUK]

Well one thing for sure you have found the right forum. The advice you are being given is golden and one thing I’ve found since joining this forum around 2 year ago, is that most on here are well educated in the ht industry and you will learn a ton.

Good luck 👍🏽

[Berba11]

2 hours ago, Oxiborick said:

Also I do think at least the crown, lack of spiral notwithstanding, does have fairly decent coverage maybe? Well except for the far anterior crown which doesn't seem to have any grafts at all. Here's an "after" pic and one taken just now:

 

Can’t see anything in these photos. Your hair isn’t going to grow at this stage. The transplanted hair will shed & then start regrowing after about 3 months. 

[Oxiborick]

19 minutes ago, Berba11 said:

Can’t see anything in these photos. Your hair isn’t going to grow at this stage. The transplanted hair will shed & then start regrowing after about 3 months. 

Oh OK. I was under the impression that the transplanted follicles grow a tiny bit after transplantation before going into shock loss after about a month.

[Berba11]

1 hour ago, Oxiborick said:

Oh OK. I was under the impression that the transplanted follicles grow a tiny bit after transplantation before going into shock loss after about a month.

You might see a bit of growth between transplant & shedding, yes. But those photos aren’t good enough quality to see what’s going on. 
 

Also, you really should name the Dr & clinic. You could save someone else some serious heartache. 

[Oxiborick]

Is there any chance that my "after" pictures simply aren't high enough quality to show all 3800 grafts, and that there are a bunch of grafts that aren't visually apparent in said photos? Like do grafts necessarily leave those red dots? Unfortunately my phone camera is the highest resolution camera I have.

I just want to be 110% sure about this...

[j1000]

On 10/28/2022 at 8:17 AM, Oxiborick said:

Quite a bit. Or so I thought. They had really good reviews on Google reviews, and I even spent a lot of time at their clinic going over everything. They didn't seem suspect at all.

Now I'm thinking that I was super naive in this approach. You'll probably think I'm an idiot after reading that, lol.

With all due respect and sensitive, google reviews is not research at all. I’m sorry my friend. Luckily better surgeons can repair it. 

[TheGreatPretender]

Sorry about your experience. 

Just goes to show that Google reviews or even TrustPilot are not often the best sources of reesearch as forums such as this one are. I feel terribly bad by the amount of people that get tricked by incompetent clinics/doctors to have a surgery they barely know the basics about. 

As the user above said, hopefully a better clinic is able to repair it for you, all the best.

[Al - Moderator]

8 hours ago, Oxiborick said:

Two things I can't figure out here:

1) If they were going to scam me, why would they allow me to pay for half and finance the rest? You'd think scammers would just demand everything up front.

2) What the hell happened to half the grafts? Someone accidentally spill them down the sink or something?

Another weird thing is that the surgeon recommended Toppik after the procedure and I joked "I got this surgery so I wouldn't have to dump powder on my head for the rest of my life." I figured she was just offering a friendly suggestion, but now it seems a lot more sinister in retrospect.

So... assuming these ~1750 grafts actually yield (I think they might as they are still growing, so they ain't dead yet at least), will I actually look WORSE because of this procedure? That would be a little hard to take.

 

1. I don't know if I'd say they tried to scam you, but the end result does turn out that way. Someone can be the nicest person and really care about you, but that doesn't make them good at their job. This is the same with anything. You could need work on your house and have a good friend tell you he'll do it cheap, but the work he does ends up being a total crap job that costs you a lot more and needs to be totally redone. Did your friend try to scam you? No, but being a good friend doesn't mean he is good at whatever job he tries to help you with. It could be that the Dr you went to has a great personality, but just isn't very good at hair transplants.

2. I will take a guess that they charged you for extractions rather than how many grafts were implanted. There are a couple of foreign "hair mill" clinics that I believe do this. If they only have less than say 20% of grafts that are not good and don't get implanted, then most people would never notice on larger sessions. It's only on cases where they get a high percentage of bad extractions where it's noticeable. This is what I think happened to you. So... what happened to all those grafts? Well yes they basically would throw them away because they weren't viable grafts. They wouldn't grow even if they implanted them, so it was better that they didn't. There are several reasons for bad extractions. a) The punch depth is not deep enough to reach past the bottom of the follicle, so when they pull the graft out they don't get the follicle is still rooted in your scalp and the graft just ends up being flesh with no hair in it. These will usually grow back as the follicle root is still there intact in your donor scalp. b) Transection. They cut across the hair and as before they don't get the follicle root. All they get is the top part of the hair, but with no root it's not going to grow. These too will usually grow back, but some may not if they cut through the follicle root itself. c) You appear to have very fine hair and fine hair doesn't hold everything together as well when pulling out the graft, so the graft may basically disintegrate as they are pulling it out and not have any or enough flesh left on it to be useable. c) Poor handling of grafts after they are extracted.

I agree with you on the Toppik suggestion by the clinic. That disgusted me as well when I had a bunch of transplants many years ago and then after years of transplants with them they gave me a bottle of some type of concealer. Are you kidding!? I spent all that time and money so I wouldn't have to put fake stuff in my hair to make it look full. What was the point of the hair transplant if I was still going to have to do that. Yep. That bugged me.

 

 

[Xanadu]

10 minutes ago, BeHappy said:

 

1. I don't know if I'd say they tried to scam you, but the end result does turn out that way. Someone can be the nicest person and really care about you, but that doesn't make them good at their job. This is the same with anything. You could need work on your house and have a good friend tell you he'll do it cheap, but the work he does ends up being a total crap job that costs you a lot more and needs to be totally redone. Did your friend try to scam you? No, but being a good friend doesn't mean he is good at whatever job he tries to help you with. It could be that the Dr you went to has a great personality, but just isn't very good at hair transplants.

 

 

 

True. This is why I'm disappointed when I look at patient reviews on youtube and elsewhere, and then it's only post-operativively (or even before the operation) that the patient says "I reccomend everyone to come to this clinic".

Why? Why, do you recommend that? You have no clue if this will turn out well or not. At least wait until there are results. 

[Oxiborick]

So, just how bad is this going to look growing out, assuming that the grafts do yield? I haven't used them in a couple years but I respond very well to Rogaine and Propecia (I restarted the latter shortly before the procedure and I could resume Rogaine easily enough).

[WhereIsMyMind]

wtf, im in shock with the pictures, where did your extracted grafts go?? this is insane. It even looks less than 2k to me

[WhereIsMyMind]

33 minutes ago, Oxiborick said:

So, just how bad is this going to look growing out, assuming that the grafts do yield? I haven't used them in a couple years but I respond very well to Rogaine and Propecia (I restarted the latter shortly before the procedure and I could resume Rogaine easily enough).

Im sorry to be rough and it is because I want to help out as much as possible. Most likely the result is going to be horrible, and even the grafts that sprout might be incorrectly angled. You should start looking for a repair/review with a new surgeon asap who can pick it from here and give you good recommendations.

And yes, picking up Rogaine/Fin is a very good idea, with your hairloss status I would say is mandatory if going HT route.

I am so sorry this happened to you. Best of luck and keep yourself informed in the forum.

Edited October 30, 2022 by WhereIsMyMind

[WhereIsMyMind]

And lastly, just to make it clear because I have worked in the past in lawsuits against scammers, they are always the nicest people and treat you like a personal friend. Its literally in "the scammers book" to act like this because that's how they will extract most value from you with least repercussions. You need to get past those feelings and analyze everything from a rational standpoint. You have been gaslighted im afraid.

Edited October 30, 2022 by WhereIsMyMind

[Oxiborick]

15 minutes ago, WhereIsMyMind said:

wtf, im in shock with the pictures, where did your extracted grafts go?? this is insane. It even looks less than 2k to me

Yeah I'm attaching a picture of almost exactly the same number (3800 for me, this one is like 3750 or something) that I was supposed to get. Looks like I got about half this.

[Oxiborick]

2 hours ago, WhereIsMyMind said:

And lastly, just to make it clear because I have worked in the past in lawsuits against scammers, they are always the nicest people and treat you like a personal friend. Its literally in "the scammers book" to act like this because that's how they will extract most value from you with least repercussions. You need to get past those feelings and analyze everything from a rational standpoint. You have been gaslighted im afraid.

I don't think they set out to scam me initially because they did take out the 3800 grafts. The surgeon just screwed up half the FUE units somehow so they couldn't be implanted, and didn't bother to tell me about it. In fact they provided me with very friendly consultations/advice over email and chat for the 2+ weeks I was in their city after the procedure, and didn't say a word about losing any of the grafts. About 10 days ago I actually texted the guy and asked him to tell me the final graft count so I could figure out the final charge I would be paying over the next six months and he wrote back with 3800 (actually 3810 now that I go back and look at it). So it looks like it started out as a serious attempt to do all 3800, they screwed it up, and now they're trying to cover it up, hoping I won't notice.

Anyway, that seems the most likely scenario.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Oxiborick

[WhereIsMyMind]

13 minutes ago, Oxiborick said:

I don't think they set out to scam me initially because they did take out the 3800 grafts. The surgeon just screwed up half the FUE units somehow so they couldn't be implanted, and didn't bother to tell me about it. In fact they provided me with very friendly consultations/advice over email and chat for the 2+ weeks I was in their city after the procedure, and didn't say a word about losing any of the grafts. About 10 days ago I actually texted the guy and asked him to tell me the final graft count so I could figure out the final charge I would be paying over the next six months and he wrote back with 3800 (actually 3810 now that I go back and look at it). So it looks like it started out as a serious attempt to do all 3800, they screwed it up, and now they're trying to cover it up, hoping I won't notice.

I haven't deleted my email correspondences with them, by the way. I never delete emails haha. Have it all saved. ☠️☠️☠️

Problem is this proccedure quality is even lower than the infamous turkish botch clinics. The recipent placement literally looks done by someone who did his first transplant in his life. 

Or yeah, maybe they f*cked up BIG time with preserving the grafts and most of them died and tried to cover it. How do you explain someone... "hey I just killed all your grafts by accident"

Edited October 30, 2022 by WhereIsMyMind

[Oxiborick]

1 hour ago, WhereIsMyMind said:

Or yeah, maybe they f*cked up BIG time with preserving the grafts and most of them died and tried to cover it. How do you explain someone... "hey I just killed all your grafts by accident"

Yeah, that seems to be the most likely scenario.

Shame really, I really liked these guys.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Oxiborick

[Vann]

5 hours ago, Oxiborick said:

I don't think they set out to scam me initially because they did take out the 3800 grafts. The surgeon just screwed up half the FUE units somehow so they couldn't be implanted, and didn't bother to tell me about it. In fact they provided me with very friendly consultations/advice over email and chat for the 2+ weeks I was in their city after the procedure, and didn't say a word about losing any of the grafts. About 10 days ago I actually texted the guy and asked him to tell me the final graft count so I could figure out the final charge I would be paying over the next six months and he wrote back with 3800 (actually 3810 now that I go back and look at it). So it looks like it started out as a serious attempt to do all 3800, they screwed it up, and now they're trying to cover it up, hoping I won't notice.

 

This is a serious case of negligence and malpractice. Keep records of everything and document everything you do going forward. Don’t accept any type of repair they offer, no discounts, or refunds (at this moment). Speak to someone who went through a similar experience. Match their story with any records you can find in your situation or get attorney help. 
 

i think you should really focus on next steps and less on what could they have achieved better at this moment. Regardless of the outcome you are left with a damaged donor, poor graft management, and lack of tissue/donor capacity. You said this happened in the US so there are options you can explore. No matter what you do I hope for the best next alternative you are most ’content’ with. 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Vann

[Oxiborick]

23 minutes ago, Vann said:

This is a serious case of negligence and malpractice. Keep records of everything and document everything you do going forward. Don’t accept any type of repair they offer, no discounts, or refunds (at this moment). Speak to someone who went through a similar experience. Match their story with any records you can find in your situation or get attorney help. 

I don't want a legal battle or to put them out of business or anything, I'm just amazed that this happened. I'd be happy with a refund I suppose.

[Vann]

2 hours ago, Oxiborick said:

I don't want a legal battle or to put them out of business or anything, I'm just amazed that this happened. I'd be happy with a refund I suppose.

uhh, I think you should speak to other people about their opinions before coming to any conclusions and seeing what you can do. Also I would ask the mod of this forum about any resources he knows to help guide you better.