Regular Member htfailure Posted March 2, 2015 Regular Member Share Posted March 2, 2015 So i underwent an FUT from one of the recommended surgeons here...The title and the pics speak more than anything i need to say.... Had to make some crappy edits in the pre-ops as i see there are some smart folks who would figure out who the Doc was from the pic background....as much as the patient's, the doctor's privacy too is being well guarded afaihs here No. of grafts - 2400 approx I was not onto minox/fin as i was experiencing sexual side effects. The post op pic is one year Starting this thread to seek advice and directions on how to proceed. ... P.S: If someone wishes to say that the non-usage of min/fin/bin et al is the reason for failure, please excuse from replying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member KO Posted March 2, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted March 2, 2015 Indeed, it is disappointing. Do you have photos of the graft placement? 3382 FUE Lupanzula http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/185463-3382-grafts-lupanzula.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member hairthere Posted March 2, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted March 2, 2015 Do you have any immediate post-op pictures to share? I am the owner/operator of AHEAD INK a Scalp Micropigmentation Company in Fort Lee, New Jersey. www.aheadink.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member 1978matt Posted March 2, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted March 2, 2015 I have a fair idea who the doc is. The fact that you are not on meds cannot be ignored or brushed under the carpet. Why do I say this? Well, look at your crown before and after. Even allowing for the different lighting you appear considerably balder in the post op photo. The same goes when comparing the dimensions of the top of your head. It appears to be significantly wider. It seems to me that an attempt to spread out 2400 grafts over a large area was attempted and did little else than to replace weak hairs with permanent ones. That said, without more photos of post op placement etc we can only speculate what went wrong. 4,312 FUT grafts (7,676 hairs) with Ray Konior, MD - August 2013 1,145 FUE grafts (3,152 hairs) with Ray Konior, MD - August 2018 763 FUE grafts (2,094 hairs) with Ray Konior, MD - January 2020 Proscar 1.25mg every 3rd day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member TommyLucchese Posted March 2, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted March 2, 2015 It does look pretty poor to me. Have you made your doctor aware? 2,000 grafts FUT Dr. Feller, July 27th 2012. 23 years old at the time. Excellent result. Need crown sorted eventually but concealer works well for now. Propecia and minoxidil since 2010. Fine for 8 years - bad sides after switching to Aindeem in 2018. Switched to topical fin/minox combo from Minoxidil Max in October 2020, along with dermarolling 1x a week. Wrote a book for newbies called Beating Hair Loss, available on Amazon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Britanium Posted March 2, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted March 2, 2015 That's a big area to cover with that amount of grafts - but of course you should have had some improvement ! Not having it look worse. Did you have shock loss also ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member htfailure Posted March 3, 2015 Author Regular Member Share Posted March 3, 2015 Here is the immediate post op I know 2400 is not a great no .of grafts to cover. While the doc suggested above 3500, i had to restrict it for financial reasons and was planning for a second HT down the line to make up for the remaining Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member htfailure Posted March 3, 2015 Author Regular Member Share Posted March 3, 2015 It does look pretty poor to me. Have you made your doctor aware? I have just reached out to the clinic...infact i had sent out my 9th month update, which was no different from my current state...and was told that it will get better by month 12 & later months to come Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member htfailure Posted March 3, 2015 Author Regular Member Share Posted March 3, 2015 To add another fact...the rate at which i had lost(& am losing now) my existing hair post HT is SEVERELY "rapid" than i was experiencing before the transplant, where i wasn't using any meds either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Rawkerboi Posted March 3, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted March 3, 2015 Please mention doc. Name if he is recommended! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member KO Posted March 3, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted March 3, 2015 To be fair though, there is the risk of shock loss without fin. Rassman has written that in many cases patients without fin often ended up same as preop. Not that it is comforting. If FUT is done, it's best to do a sizable no. of grafts, on the bright side, you didn't burn that many here. Complicated for sure. 3382 FUE Lupanzula http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/185463-3382-grafts-lupanzula.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Sean Posted March 3, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted March 3, 2015 Approximately 2400 grafts, but very hard to detect where grafts grew? Do you know the groupings/density of thos grafts? How many 1s, 2s, 3s, etc? There had to be some substantial goal set based upon this restoration? What was your outcome/goal based on speaking with surgeon? If such a large area was transplanted and you were possibly considering coming in later on for 2nd procedure, wouldnt it been better to work on a particular zone and then go further back? Bottom line is, there is no substantial difference noted up to this point post op. If the area has to be reworked, you will be needing hairs inserted into already impacted zones that could have affected the layer of the skin, thus possibly needing larger incisions to help the grafts take as it would be like a repair. Aside from that, transection would still may be something to be cautious of as you may have some native hairs in zones that may need grafts placed nearby later. Could you have shockloss? I think propecia can be a double edged sword. You may regrow some prone to loss native hairs risking transection in native hair zones or you can lose hairs making your result look less desirable without it, but not sure if such a shed or loss of native hairs would come so rapidly based on your age, even if you are without it. Im guessing you are around 29 years. Some folks dont even take propecia, it hasnt been mentioned by some surgeons i know as a prerequisite to take. If it was as such, then surgeons shouldnt proceed to work on a person that says they may not take it and those surgeons should act responsibly. Regardless, i think current state of result is of concern. Not really sure how much noticeable density you will see in the months ahead. You can wait more than a year as the doc said, but i dont know if you will get that boost of density you may need. This is assuming, you were not operated on before this procedure and had a virgin scalp? If you were a previous repair patient, then the skin could be impacted with scar tissue in the zomes worked that may slow your growth a little. But if you had a virgin scalp, not sure why it isnt a distinct change. I would definitely ask the doc and continue to follow up with this. I am afraod, but it is possible you may need a touchup, esp if you do not see any more change in the next 3 months. Good luck to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member htfailure Posted March 3, 2015 Author Regular Member Share Posted March 3, 2015 Approximately 2400 grafts, but very hard to detect where grafts grew? Do you know the groupings/density of thos grafts? How many 1s, 2s, 3s, etc? There had to be some substantial goal set based upon this restoration? What was your outcome/goal based on speaking with surgeon? I can get the breakdown of the grafts in terms of 1s, 2s... The goal was to improve the density on the front and top such that the head doesn't look like a rugby ball but enough to visualize something like "this guy is not balding and has made a medium summer cut". I know what a 2400 will yield and hence wasn't expecting a miracle If such a large area was transplanted and you were possibly considering coming in later on for 2nd procedure, wouldnt it been better to work on a particular zone and then go further back? Seems a point...but i wasn't suggested so and hence can't answer not sure if such a shed or loss of native hairs would come so rapidly based on your age, even if you are without it. Im guessing you are around 29 years. Some folks dont even take propecia, it hasnt been mentioned by some surgeons i know as a prerequisite to take. You are right... there are many successful cases on those lines but hardly or no TOTAL failure cases by not using the meds. And yup...i have just reached 30 yrs Regardless, i think current state of result is of concern. Not really sure how much noticeable density you will see in the months ahead. You can wait more than a year as the doc said, but i dont know if you will get that boost of density you may need. This is assuming, you were not operated on before this procedure and had a virgin scalp? If you were a previous repair patient, then the skin could be impacted with scar tissue in the zomes worked that may slow your growth a little. But if you had a virgin scalp, not sure why it isnt a distinct change. This is my first HT but why I need to wait more than a year...? there is nothing in place to become worser...it already is. You should have got "atleast" 40-50% of growth by 1 year such that you can wait for one more to see if reaches 100% or even 80%. When there is zero or negative growth by 1 year and a magic is expected in the coming days, then we should be a Popeye. I would definitely ask the doc and continue to follow up with this. I am afraod, but it is possible you may need a touchup, esp if you do not see any more change in the next 3 months. Good luck to you. In any case of any touchup or repair, i DONT want to get it done by the same surgeon. I've had enough.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member htfailure Posted March 3, 2015 Author Regular Member Share Posted March 3, 2015 To be fair though, there is the risk of shock loss without fin. Rassman has written that in many cases patients without fin often ended up same as preop. Not that it is comforting. If FUT is done, it's best to do a sizable no. of grafts, on the bright side, you didn't burn that many here. Complicated for sure. Stating the point again in different words.... Reason for shock loss may be attributed to the non-usage of the meds...reasons for slow growth may also be a cause from the same. Zero growth (after one year) or negative growth has nothing do with not following the meds. I waited for a year before opening up here, to see if i could see any progress...as that is the benchmark used to evaluate the "complete" success of an HT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member KO Posted March 3, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted March 3, 2015 Fair enough. Has the clinic still told you to wait a year? If so, they are likely wrong, 9 mos is usually by when most growth is over. 3382 FUE Lupanzula http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/185463-3382-grafts-lupanzula.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member farmcat Posted March 3, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted March 3, 2015 I am not buying the "you lost the existing hair and replaced it with the grafts theory", 2400 grafts on a completely bald scalp should have shown much more improvement than this and has in many other cases. It's hard to tell from the post op pic, but it looks like most of the grafts were concentrated in the frontal 1/3 (maybe frontal 1/2?). If that is the case I would expect 2400 to give pretty good coverage for that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member hairthere Posted March 3, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted March 3, 2015 It seems you did lose more native hair post HT. Your loss pattern appears wider in the 1 year post picture. This could be due to shockloss or it could just be from MPB. Shockloss should not be confused with transection. The latter is a pure surgical error where the grafts are accidentally cut. The former is when surgical trauma causes existing "unstable" hair to fall. HT surgeons should be able to tell if hairs have miniaturized and will be susceptible to permanent shockloss and will compensate for this with graft concentration especially if you are not on meds. It allows for a different surgical plan as Sean mentioned, concentrating on one zone per surgery rather than spreading grafts over a larger area. Did you discuss this with your doctor? That being said, you should have had more density, at least in the hairline. I'm curious to see what your doctor says, and I agree that if you are no longer longer comfortable with him/her you should consult elsewhere. I would do that regardless just to get a qualified second opinion. Best of luck and please keep us updated.... I am the owner/operator of AHEAD INK a Scalp Micropigmentation Company in Fort Lee, New Jersey. www.aheadink.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member TakingThePlunge Posted March 3, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted March 3, 2015 htfailure, First, let me state that I also believe the result should look better given the placement of the grafts. I think you got some good feedback here. While I don't see this as a desirable result at this stage, there are many possible factors at play and I'm not sure we can call the procedure itself a total failure. As others have said, there does seem to be a progression of hair loss. The number of grafts was low to begin with given the large area covered and there may have been some shock loss. I would really like to hear from the surgeon's point of view on this case also. If you look at my results from my first hair transplant, I had subpar growth and opted for a second pass by the same physician to fill things out. Having said that, I still saw significant improvement between the 9th and 10th month. I'm a firm believer in waiting out the full 12 months before assessing the final result. If you choose to share the name of your physician either publicly or privately, I'd be happy to contact them on your behalf and ask that they share their input here. Best of luck! David - Former Forum Co-Moderator and Editorial Assistant I am not a medical professional. All opinions are my own and my advice should not constitute as medical advice. View my Hair Loss Website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member BaldingBogger Posted March 3, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted March 3, 2015 Sorry to see this. But i agree its a total failure. It cannot be dressed up any other way. There is no discernable evidence of acceptable growth anywhere. The fact you are not on meds is not an issue. There are tons of successful HT's with people not on finasteride. It is by no means a prerequisite for hair transplantation. At this stage i would contact the surgeon and request a refund. I think you should be entitled to a total refund for this. I would certainly not let the same Dr operate again. And i would go elsewhere for a second shot at it. Good luck, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member htfailure Posted March 4, 2015 Author Regular Member Share Posted March 4, 2015 Here is the breakdown as requested 1s - 571 grafts 2s - 1300 grafts 3s - 541 grafts 4s - 41 grafts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member htfailure Posted March 4, 2015 Author Regular Member Share Posted March 4, 2015 Fair enough. Has the clinic still told you to wait a year? If so, they are likely wrong, 9 mos is usually by when most growth is over. Yes...when i contacted them at around 9 months, where there was no growth either. When it worsens with every passing day, i, on earth, don't know how we can see wonders later. When i complained abt this, the doc gave some strange examples/analogies to stress the point that "You need to wait" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member htfailure Posted March 4, 2015 Author Regular Member Share Posted March 4, 2015 HT surgeons should be able to tell if hairs have miniaturized and will be susceptible to permanent shockloss and will compensate for this with graft concentration especially if you are not on meds. It allows for a different surgical plan as Sean mentioned, concentrating on one zone per surgery rather than spreading grafts over a larger area. Did you discuss this with your doctor? How a patient is supposed to know all these techniques? isn't it a doc's call to have these suggestions put forward...? The only stuff that was said is to go for 3500 grafts & a lil above. And i had to downsize it owing to financial crunch...take up a second one in a couple of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member htfailure Posted March 4, 2015 Author Regular Member Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) I am not buying the "you lost the existing hair and replaced it with the grafts theory", 2400 grafts on a completely bald scalp should have shown much more improvement than this and has in many other cases. It's hard to tell from the post op pic, but it looks like most of the grafts were concentrated in the frontal 1/3 (maybe frontal 1/2?). If that is the case I would expect 2400 to give pretty good coverage for that area. Do you even see an improvement in first place? such that we can tag it as "less growth" or something...? Or are my eyes playing tricks with me failing to notice the growth..? Not to offend you by any means...but i don't even see a cent of growth. Edited March 4, 2015 by htfailure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member htfailure Posted March 4, 2015 Author Regular Member Share Posted March 4, 2015 If you look at my results from my first hair transplant, I had subpar growth and opted for a second pass by the same physician to fill things out. Having said that, I still saw significant improvement between the 9th and 10th month. I'm a firm believer in waiting out the full 12 months before assessing the final result. If you choose to share the name of your physician either publicly or privately, I'd be happy to contact them on your behalf and ask that they share their input here. Best of luck! Just FYI again...i am well past 1 year. Sent you a pm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member farmcat Posted March 4, 2015 Senior Member Share Posted March 4, 2015 Do you even see an improvement in first place? such that we can tag it as "less growth" or something...? Or are my eyes playing tricks with me failing to notice the growth..? Not to offend you by any means...but i don't even see a cent of growth. I don't see any improvement Ht....I didn't want to say that and offend you, but no, I see no regrowth.....I am glad you didn't have the money at the time to pay for the 3500 grafts, because that would have been another 1100 that this doctor wasted....in my opinion you should get a full refund and go somewhere else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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