New Evidence Topical Dutesteride Is Snake Oil?

[olmert]

I was taking .25 mg/day of Finasteride pills for many years. 

Then I went off it for 2 weeks and tested my DHT at 36. 

Then I used topical Dutesteride .1% (strongest one) from http://anagenica.com/ for a month. I tested my DHT at 46. 

I can tell you one thing. My sex drive was much lower with the .25 mg/day of Finasteride, and was super high when on the topical Dutesteride. 

Should I conclude the topical Dutesteride doesn't work? If the topical stuff is snake oil, then my DHT should not have gone up, but should have stayed the same. It is also possible there was still some finasteride pills in my system when I tested at 36. I only took 2 weeks off the pill for that test. 

I know Dr. Bhatti says in a Youtube that he doesn't think topical dutesteride/finasteride works.  I'm fearing he is right. Bhatti's warning is two fold. 1. First most stuff you put on skin never penetrates down, so it does nothing.   My DHT level makes me think this is the case. 2. Second, if topical dutesteride does penetrate, it might penetrate so well that it hits the blood and is the same as swallowing a pill. So just swallow a cheap pill. 

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by olmert

[DedLifts]

I'm using it now, and it 100% has improved my hair.

How effective it is compared to oral though, I have no idea.

[olmert]

8 minutes ago, DedLifts said:

I'm using it now, and it 100% has improved my hair.

How effective it is compared to oral though, I have no idea.

Studies show people are very bad judges for these things. A better judge is something objective like your DHT count. 

[asterix0]

Interesting you say this. I thought the molecular size of dutasteride meant it could not penetrate the scalp, hence making it useless topically. 

[Melvin- Admin]

I’ve been using it and have visibly better hair. It definitely lowers DHT levels. There was a guy here who got tested and it lowered it by 30%. I don’t think you can gauge your sex drive on the efficacy. Everyone is different. Some guys do great on oral fin, others dont. 

[hairman804]

Very interesting! I've just been using the topical finasteride and minoxidil personally and like the results. 

[olmert]

@hairman804, @Melvin- Moderator, @asterix0, @DedLifts, it boggles my mind how 90% of people think they can subjectively tell whether Dutersteride worked. It has been studied extensively. 90% of people think they can tell the difference between coke and pepsi, but in blind tests only 10% of people can. https://daily.jstor.org/the-coca-cola-wars-can-anybody-really-tell-the-difference/ 

My evidence is not subjective. My objective DHT level went from 36 to 46 when I moved from pills to topical. 

[Melvin- Admin]

52 minutes ago, olmert said:

@hairman804, @Melvin- Moderator, @asterix0, @DedLifts, it boggles my mind how 90% of people think they can subjectively tell whether Dutersteride worked. It has been studied extensively. 90% of people think they can tell the difference between coke and pepsi, but in blind tests only 10% of people can. https://daily.jstor.org/the-coca-cola-wars-can-anybody-really-tell-the-difference/ 

My evidence is not subjective. My objective DHT level went from 36 to 46 when I moved from pills to topical. 

But that is on par with the results seen in their study, at least two participants increased their DHT. Others, had their DHT lowered by 10-12% and I believe one had it dropped by 20. 

[olmert]

7 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

But that is on par with the results seen in their study, at least two participants increased their DHT. Others, had their DHT lowered by 10-12% and I believe one had it dropped by 20. 

The range of results from the study means just about any result will be considered "on par." 

[Melvin- Admin]

5 hours ago, olmert said:

The range of results from the study means just about any result will be considered "on par." 

No, I mean it’s consistent with the serum DHT levels we saw in their study. I’m not surprised your DHT went up, just as I wouldn’t be surprised if it went down. It ranges from person to person. One participant had almost a 50% decrease, while another had a 68% increase.

I believe these deviations are consistent with the natural shift in testosterone that we experience. Testosterone levels are not linear. Therefore, you can test your levels and see a drastic change for a myriad of reasons. Like changes in diet, sleep, stress, etc,. I bet if you tested your testosterone you’d see a change. DHT is the byproduct of testosterone, so they go hand in hand.

[olmert]

1 hour ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

I believe these deviations are consistent with the natural shift in testosterone that we experience. 
 

Pharmaceuticals cost a billion dollars to test in part because you need to test a large population to weed out natural fluctuation. This is why a study of only 10 people isn't much evidence of anything. The study probably means there is a 51% chance topical dutesteride decreases balding, and a 49% chance topical dutesteride does nothing. There is no money to test topical dutesteride with any degree of reliability--to get a figure any higher than 51%. I suppose my own outcome is even less evidence than a 10 person study. I definitely feel, though, that my libido is 10 times higher on topical dutesteride than it was on .2 mg/day of finasteride pills. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by olmert

[Melvin- Admin]

58 minutes ago, olmert said:

Pharmaceuticals cost a billion dollars to test in part because you need to test a large population to weed out natural fluctuation. This is why a study of only 10 people isn't much evidence of anything. The study probably means there is a 51% chance topical dutesteride decreases balding, and a 49% chance topical dutesteride does nothing. There is no money to test topical dutesteride with any degree of reliability--to get a figure any higher than 51%. I suppose my own outcome is even less evidence than a 10 person study. I definitely feel, though, that my libido is 10 times higher on topical dutesteride than it was on .2 mg/day of finasteride pills. 

While I agree a small study isn’t optimal. It does show there’s some natural fluctuations that occur most likely because the drug isn’t going as systemic for some. Now, is topical dut for everyone? No. But I think its worth trying.

Check out this last post here, someone tested their levels and they dropped, so it does penetrate. Dutasteride is a proven drug. If there’s penetration of a proven drug, it will theoretically work.

 

[Panamera13]

On 8/8/2023 at 10:19 AM, olmert said:

Pharmaceuticals cost a billion dollars to test in part because you need to test a large population to weed out natural fluctuation. This is why a study of only 10 people isn't much evidence of anything. The study probably means there is a 51% chance topical dutesteride decreases balding, and a 49% chance topical dutesteride does nothing. There is no money to test topical dutesteride with any degree of reliability--to get a figure any higher than 51%. I suppose my own outcome is even less evidence than a 10 person study. I definitely feel, though, that my libido is 10 times higher on topical dutesteride than it was on .2 mg/day of finasteride pills. 

@olmert - How is your experience so far with XYON? Hair and Libido?

Edited November 28, 2023 by Panamera13

[olmert]

1 hour ago, Panamera13 said:

How is your experience so far with XYON? Hair and Libido?

Not using Xyon. Using the competitor from Anagenica. It is much cheaper. Libido is great. I don't believe subjective assessments are reliable for whether a topical is growing hair, so I have no idea if it is doing anything. I started micro-needling before using the Anagenica because I skeptical any of it is penetrating. Even with the micro-needling, there is no libido loss, so I have my doubts that any of it is getting inside me.  

Edited November 28, 2023 by olmert

[12345]

I used the 0.1% from anagenica. After one application on July 4 th, it gave me sexual side effects in the form of loss of spontaneous erections, erections when aroused, painful ejaculation, and an on/pff pain in the head of my penis. It took me about 6 weeks for the sides to reside, and about 11 weeks to feel back to normal. 

It was my far the worst sexual sides I had had from any drug, the next worst being clacosterone 1%(Winlevi brand) which resulted in terrible tesiticular pain after 3 applications.

While I did measure my DHT levels before starting it, i did not get a chance to measure it during my symptomatic period (life events got in the way)

i think we can all agree at this point, topical dut goes systemic,  be it xyon brand or any other brand, and medications can definitely penetrate in the dermis of the scalp which houses blood vessels for the med to go systemic

I think the whole theory that dut is to heavy to penetrate the scalp is disproven at this point. i think we can just forget about that statement.

I think we all have different reactions to these anti-androgens due to different genetic make up, and the hormone levels that differ as we age, and out bodies own reactions to changes in hormones.

 

i wouldn't say topical dut is snake oil. i think if you are receiving a legit product it is def absorbed and goes systematically. I think its still a mixed bag of ppl having success versus no success on it

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by 12345

[Panamera13]

I'm NW 7 - having tried pretty much everything: Oral Fin, Topical Min, Anagenica, Minoxidil Max, Hairguard, Scalp Elixir....ALL BRANDS....nothing worked or gave me sides.

Just ordered XYON DUT - my final attempt before I give up.

I don't want hair system...itcy scalp, too much maintenace....can I do HT without DUT or FIN?

[BaldDude]

4 minutes ago, Panamera13 said:

I'm NW 7 - having tried pretty much everything: Oral Fin, Topical Min, Anagenica, Minoxidil Max, Hairguard, Scalp Elixir....ALL BRANDS....nothing worked or gave me sides.

Just ordered XYON DUT - my final attempt before I give up.

I don't want hair system...itcy scalp, too much maintenace....can I do HT without DUT or FIN?

sure but you'll continue to lose hair without these 2 meds, at least that's the consensus here.

[Panamera13]

16 minutes ago, BaldBobby said:

sure but you'll continue to lose hair without these 2 meds, at least that's the consensus here.

My plan is to get HT and just use xyon DUT as a "maintainer" - hopefully there are NO sides. 

If there are sides, I'm doomed so will move on in life

[duchaine]

When you read a research, the "results" show the "average" result.
For example, are 6 training sets better than 4. Result: yes, we saw a 25% in hypertrophy.
If you read the whole paper, you see that some people got 40% improvements while others got better results with 4 sets.
That means, the efficacy is very subjective.
That is true for everything in the medical world.
If 99% of people get results from something, that doesn't mean it works for you. You can be the 1% outlier.

[olmert]

8 hours ago, 12345 said:

I used the 0.1% from anagenica. After one application on July 4 th, it gave me sexual side effects in the form of loss of spontaneous erections, erections when aroused, painful ejaculation, and an on/pff pain in the head of my penis. It took me about 6 weeks for the sides to reside, and about 11 weeks to feel back to normal. 

It was my far the worst sexual sides I had had from any drug, the next worst being clacosterone 1%(Winlevi brand) which resulted in terrible tesiticular pain after 3 applications.

While I did measure my DHT levels before starting it, i did not get a chance to measure it during my symptomatic period (life events got in the way)

i think we can all agree at this point, topical dut goes systemic,  be it xyon brand or any other brand, and medications can definitely penetrate in the dermis of the scalp which houses blood vessels for the med to go systemic

I think the whole theory that dut is to heavy to penetrate the scalp is disproven at this point. i think we can just forget about that statement.

I think we all have different reactions to these anti-androgens due to different genetic make up, and the hormone levels that differ as we age, and out bodies own reactions to changes in hormones.

 

i wouldn't say topical dut is snake oil. i think if you are receiving a legit product it is def absorbed and goes systematically. I think its still a mixed bag of ppl having success versus no success on it

 

 

I certainly don't think the dut in anagenica has gone systemic in me. 

I tried finasteride pills and instantly lost all libido. I had to stop.  Eventually I tried Anagencia, and my libido stayed high. When I tested my DHT, I found my DHT was much lower with the finasteride pill than with this topical. I feared Anagencia was not penetrating, so I started to microneedle before the Anagenica.  Still, no reduction in libido. 

[12345]

58 minutes ago, olmert said:

 

I certainly don't think the dut in anagenica has gone systemic in me. 

I tried finasteride pills and instantly lost all libido. I had to stop.  Eventually I tried Anagencia, and my libido stayed high. When I tested my DHT, I found my DHT was much lower with the finasteride pill than with this topical. I feared Anagencia was not penetrating, so I started to microneedle before the Anagenica.  Still, no reduction in libido. 

dont know my friend. i guess just be glad you didnt get sides