Kevin does not like oral minoxidil

[Turkhair]

7 hours ago, hairman22 said:

Your take on OM is quite the difference from laughing at people who suffer from PFS or who have had side affects.

You’re not really very objective are you? No issue for Fin for you so its funny seeing people suffer from side affects

Comparing apples and oranges. 

Finasteride is a safe drug that is not toxic on its own. Minoxidil is toxic on its own. 

Did you know minoxidil caused lesions in internal organs in animals? 

Let’s analyse finasteride.

It reduces DHT levels by some percent. DHT becomes a bad hormone as we age causing prostate issues. Finasteride shrinks prostate size which is a good thing. There is also a study which linked finasteride and other 5ar inhibitor to actually helping some brain condition. 

There are people who are born without 5ar enzyme, turns out they live very long lives. Eunuchs have increased longevity. They did a study and turned out castrated men in olden times outlived their normal peers. 

There is no one who is born without a heart or born with a defective heart and survived.

Night and day difference mate. People absolutely kill DHT hormone for hair loss and surprise surprise no issues. But nobody can damage their heart and live.

Now for the record, I acknowledge sides from finasteride and don’t laugh at those who get it. I don’t consider PFS a real condition but an imaginary one. PFS appeared after 2 or 3 or is it 4? decades of finasteride approval. 

[GoliGoliGoli]

1 hour ago, Heisenberg said:

Incidentally, in my honest opinion, products like L’Oréal Professionnel Serioxyl are just as bad, if not worse, as they throw in perfume too.

Ya a lot of synthetic fragrances are endocrine disrupting too. I never like being in a car with heavy air fresheners and such. 

Would you say you have sensitive skin in general? I had a freind in HS who was very blonde and light skinned and even someone drawing on her skin with a pen or marker would cause weird issues for her. 

[Heisenberg]

4 hours ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

Ya a lot of synthetic fragrances are endocrine disrupting too. I never like being in a car with heavy air fresheners and such. 

Would you say you have sensitive skin in general? I had a freind in HS who was very blonde and light skinned and even someone drawing on her skin with a pen or marker would cause weird issues for her. 

Yeah, bad news.

Not sure how sensitive my skin is. I wouldn't say that it is that is very sensitive, though, as never had any issues of the kind you mention.

[LeveledUp]

13 hours ago, ilag said:

is oral or topical better?

I don’t think anyone is “better” per say.

Each has their pros and cons, and generally effective. 

Whichever’s you’re most comfortable with and likely to stick to long term.

[Heisenberg]

It seems the risk of pericardial effusion is around 3% if you are not on dialysis (most people aren't):

"There have been reports of pericarditis occurring in association with the use of LONITEN. The relationship of this association to renal status is uncertain. Pericardial effusion, occasionally with tamponade, has been observed in about 3% of treated patients not on dialysis, especially those with inadequate or compromised renal function. Although in many cases, the pericardial effusion was associated with a connective tissue disease, the uremic syndrome, congestive heart failure, or marked fluid retention, there have been instances in which these potential causes of effusion were not present. Patients should be observed closely for any suggestion of a pericardial disorder, and echocardiographic studies should be carried out if suspicion arises. More vigorous diuretic therapy, dialysis, pericardiocentesis, or surgery may be required."

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2015/018154s026lbl.pdf

Still, the bit right on top on the first page worries me:

"WARNINGS

LONITEN Tablets contain the powerful antihypertensive agent, minoxidil, which may produce serious adverse effects. It can cause pericardial effusion, occasionally progressing to tamponade, and angina pectoris may be exacerbated. "

[Heisenberg]

So, I decided to bite the bullet, and start by taking one tablet. I will probably wait a few days, then will start alternating between days etc. I'll report back if I experience any issues, assuming I am able to, of course. 🤞

[webathon]

On 7/6/2023 at 10:54 AM, Heisenberg said:

So, I decided to bite the bullet, and start by taking one tablet. I will probably wait a few days, then will start alternating between days etc. I'll report back if I experience any issues, assuming I am able to, of course. 🤞

Now YOU'RE the one who is trolling 🤣

[Heisenberg]

3 hours ago, webathon said:

Now YOU'RE the one who is trolling 🤣

Get a life.

[BackFromTheBrink]

On 7/6/2023 at 1:41 AM, Turkhair said:

I don’t consider PFS a real condition but an imaginary one. PFS appeared after 2 or 3 or is it 4? decades of finasteride approval. 

If the condition existed 20 years ago, how would the small percentage of people who had the condition have known about each other? 

I'd imagine it just wasn't attributed to the drug, or there was no way of the individuals comparing notes.

The internet has done wonders for collaboration across the world - perhaps it's popularity explains why PFS wasn't recognised previously?

[Scree]

I firmly believe all the controversy around Finasteride is that it is FDA approved for a purely cosmetic condition. Dutasteride does not get nearly as bad of a reputation and it's arguably a much stronger drug. 

[Melvin- Admin]

2 hours ago, Scree said:

I firmly believe all the controversy around Finasteride is that it is FDA approved for a purely cosmetic condition. Dutasteride does not get nearly as bad of a reputation and it's arguably a much stronger drug. 

Or it’s because dutasteride is not used for hair loss. Prescribing it for hair loss would be “off-label” use, so the patient assumes more responsibility. 

[jondoeuk]

3 hours ago, Scree said:

I firmly believe all the controversy around Finasteride is that it is FDA approved for a purely cosmetic condition. Dutasteride does not get nearly as bad of a reputation and it's arguably a much stronger drug. 

It (5 mg) was first approved by the FDA for treatment of benign prostatic hyperplasia (prostate enlargement) back in 1992.

This is an interesting study on the nocebo effect https://academic.oup.com/jsm/article-abstract/4/6/1708/6890112

[Heisenberg]

Some serious side effects noted from topical minoxidil:

 

[Heisenberg]

On 7/6/2023 at 4:54 PM, Heisenberg said:

So, I decided to bite the bullet, and start by taking one tablet. I will probably wait a few days, then will start alternating between days etc. I'll report back if I experience any issues, assuming I am able to, of course. 🤞

Started getting subtle pain in my heart area, and tonight I'm getting a bit of a stabbing pain on the other side, so may need to stop taking the drug. What a bloody nightmare...

[HairEnthusiast101]

5 minutes ago, Heisenberg said:

Started getting subtle pain in my heart area, and tonight I'm getting a bit of a stabbing pain on the other side, so may need to stop taking the drug. What a bloody nightmare...

I took 1.25 mg and my throat hurts. Could be unrelated but if it is related I’m not gonna take it anymore

[LeveledUp]

Since bumping up to 5mg had no sides just like on 2.5mg.

Been nearly 2 months think I may be finally seeing some growth? But I don’t know if it’s just wishful thinking.

Decided I’m gonna hold out till September and then make a decision if I’m going back to Topical

As that’ll make it 11 months in total I’ve been on Oral Minoxidil.

Also started dermarolling again, trying to be consistent with 1mm once very 7-10 days.

[jfally]

Team .5mg DUT/5mg Oral Min daily, checking in.

Zero sides, zero issues.

Funny enough, the less time I spend reading about possible sides or stressing, the better I feel.

Fancy that, eh? 

[Melvin- Admin]

If you have pre-conceived notions of a drug, and you truly believe it’s dangerous, why on earth would you take it? The mind is a powerful thing. I’ve had friends read horror stories about fin, then take it and claim they got side effects within the first 5 minutes. 

[jfally]

2 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

If you have pre-conceived notions of a drug, and you truly believe it’s dangerous, why on earth would you take it? The mind is a powerful thing. I’ve had friends read horror stories about fin, then take it and claim they got side effects within the first 5 minutes. 

Agreed 100%.

If you go into almost anything convinced of how it's going to go, it'll probably indeed 'go' that way.

Sit for a test you're convinced you're going to fail, odds are you score much lower than if you went in either neutral or optimistic.

In driving, motos especially, they tell us to look thru the curve. If we fixate on the guardrail at the apex, much higher chance of wiping out. Instead look thru the curve and do not fixate, look where you're going not down at your front wheel or over side to the guardrail you don't want to hit.

[Heisenberg]

59 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

If you have pre-conceived notions of a drug, and you truly believe it’s dangerous, why on earth would you take it? The mind is a powerful thing. I’ve had friends read horror stories about fin, then take it and claim they got side effects within the first 5 minutes. 

You're essentially arguing that the risks of taking the drug are merely my subjective opinion, when you have previously agreed that all pharmaceuticals carry a risk of side effects. 

I have only repeated what has been overtly declared by Pfizer themselves. I've not stated anything that Pfizer has not. To that end, I have not blown things out of proportion, and only a fool would not be mindful of the possible side effects before taking a drug.

[GoliGoliGoli]

14 minutes ago, Heisenberg said:

You're essentially arguing that the risks of taking the drug are merely my subjective opinion, when you have previously agreed that all pharmaceuticals carry a risk of side effects. 

I have only repeated what has been overtly declared by Pfizer themselves. I've not stated anything that Pfizer has not. To that end, I have not blown things out of proportion, and only a fool would not be mindful of the possible side effects before taking a drug.

I think he was replying to jfally's comment not yours. 

I am a big believer in the nocebo effect. Hell, I'm such a hippy that I even believe in the power on manifesting outcomes via your own thoughts in terms of say your career or your relationships (Shoutout to the Monroe Insitute). 

On the other hand, I also believe that it's quite possible that it's not a great idea to be taking a medication for baldness that was originally designed for hypertension, only for it to be basically discontinued for that purpose due to side effects (Albeit at higher doses). 

We walk a fine line here, chumes! 

Edited July 18, 2023 by GoliGoliGoli

[Heisenberg]

15 minutes ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

I think he was replying to jfally's comment not yours. 

I am a big believer in the nocebo effect. Hell, I'm such a hippy that I even believe in the power on manifesting outcomes via your own thoughts in terms of say your career or your relationships. 

On the other hand, I also believe that it's quite possible that it's not a great idea to be taking a medication for baldness that was originally designed for hypertension, only for it to be basically discontinued for that purpose due to side effects (Albeit at higher doses). 

We walk a fine line here, chumes! 

I agree that the nocebo effect may apply in some cases but not all. I don't think the poor people that were subject to studies and who experienced pericardial effusion and edema etc. were all experiencing a nocebo effect. I suspect some of them weren't even properly informed of the side effects. 

I also need more convincing that the nocebo effect could induce stabbing chest pain. I know the mind can be powerful, but surely not that powerful.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Heisenberg

[Heisenberg]

I also knew of the possible side effects of taking finasteride (there has been a lot of drama concerning all that), but I have taken the drug for many months, and appear to be okay.

[jfally]

7 minutes ago, Heisenberg said:

I agree that the nocebo effect may apply in some cases but not all. I don't think the poor people that were subject to studies and who experienced pericardial effusion and edema etc. were all experiencing a nocebo effect. I suspect some of them weren't even properly informed of the side effects. 

I also need more convincing that the nocebo effect could induce stabbing chest pain. I know the mind can be powerful, but surely not that powerful.

Anxiety attacks are often described as stabbing chest pain.

Anxiety on the whole can lead to symptoms folk describe as cardio/chest/heart related. Breathing difficulties. Etc.

I actually agree with much of what you're saying above but I do believe that there's alot of nuance to this conversation.

[Heisenberg]

1 minute ago, jfally said:

Anxiety attacks are often described as stabbing chest pain.

Anxiety on the whole can lead to symptoms folk describe as cardio/chest/heart related. Breathing difficulties. Etc.

I actually agree with much of what you're saying above but I do believe that there's alot of nuance to this conversation.

True that, but that would be a remarkable coincidence in my case, as this is the first time that I have experienced this, and it happened around a week after starting oral minoxidil, which happens to mess with your heart (that's what it was intended to do).