Kevin does not like oral minoxidil

[GoliGoliGoli]

11 minutes ago, Heisenberg said:

True that, but that would be a remarkable coincidence in my case, as this is the first time that I have experienced this, and it happened around a week after starting oral minoxidil, which happens to mess with your heart (that's what it was intended to do).

Any acid reflux in your past? 

[Heisenberg]

5 minutes ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

Any acid reflux in your past? 

Possibly. I think all people could get that, and you may not notice it. That would also be a bit of a remarkable coincidence though?

Edited July 18, 2023 by Heisenberg

[Heisenberg]

I think pericarditis was a very common side effect:

https://www.healthline.com/health/pain-in-right-side-of-chest#12.-Cardiac-inflammation

[Heisenberg]

"Very common: may affect more than 1 in 10 people  

Increased heart rate, inflammation of the lining that surrounds the heart, abnormal electrocardiogram (ECG), increased hair growth, hair colour changes."

https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/files/pil.4295.pdf

[Heisenberg]

What bloody rotten luck: I use topical minoxidil and I get hyperkeratosis etc., which prevents me from getting a HT. I try to switch to oral minoxidil, and I probably start getting the worst kind of side effects. Failing a full blown heart attack, I'm not sure it can get much worse.

[jfally]

1 hour ago, Heisenberg said:

True that, but that would be a remarkable coincidence in my case, as this is the first time that I have experienced this, and it happened around a week after starting oral minoxidil, which happens to mess with your heart (that's what it was intended to do).

I apologize as I'm guilty of having not scrolled up/back enough evidently!

I will always err on side of deferring to someone's personal firsthand experience; nobody knows our own body than we do.

My intent wasn't to dismiss your firsthand experience, my words were how much fear mongering there is and how likely it is to deter folks from using the very few meds available to help combat MPB.

I'm wired to overthink everything so after reading plenty of initial scare posts regarding sides for all these meds, I make a marked effort these days to never read that stuff, and I've been totally fine using both Dut and Oral Min. 

Clearly you had a different experience with OM, sorry man!

It does leave me curious about certain posts where people mention what you did and then a day or a week later, no more sides to speak of. But I totally understand not wanting to stay the course in hopes that stabbing chest pains diminish, that'd be a hard sell lol.

[jfally]

5 minutes ago, Heisenberg said:

What bloody rotten luck: I use topical minoxidil and I get hyperkeratosis etc., which prevents me from getting a HT. I try to switch to oral minoxidil, and I probably start getting the worst kind of side effects. Failing a full blown heart attack, I'm not sure it can get much worse.

If it's something you'd still be interested, perhaps working with your Dr to try again with a very slow increase til settling at minimum effective dose you're able to tolerate?

I remember reading 2.5mg oral daily is equivalent to twice daily topical 5% but it wasn't a credible source so take that with a grain of salt.

[Heisenberg]

2 hours ago, jfally said:

I apologize as I'm guilty of having not scrolled up/back enough evidently!

I will always err on side of deferring to someone's personal firsthand experience; nobody knows our own body than we do.

My intent wasn't to dismiss your firsthand experience, my words were how much fear mongering there is and how likely it is to deter folks from using the very few meds available to help combat MPB.

I'm wired to overthink everything so after reading plenty of initial scare posts regarding sides for all these meds, I make a marked effort these days to never read that stuff, and I've been totally fine using both Dut and Oral Min. 

Clearly you had a different experience with OM, sorry man!

Yes, I'm pretty much the same.

Glad you are managing okay on both dutasteride and oral minoxidil. How long have you been on the oral minoxidil for, and what dose are you on? Are you using topical dutasteride? 

2 hours ago, jfally said:

It does leave me curious about certain posts where people mention what you did and then a day or a week later, no more sides to speak of. But I totally understand not wanting to stay the course in hopes that stabbing chest pains diminish, that'd be a hard sell lol.

Which posts are those? I take it you are referring to other people who have tried oral minoxidil? Perhaps one does tolerate the drug better with continued use, but, that said, you also run the risk of the side effects getting worse.

[Heisenberg]

2 hours ago, jfally said:

If it's something you'd still be interested, perhaps working with your Dr to try again with a very slow increase til settling at minimum effective dose you're able to tolerate?

I remember reading 2.5mg oral daily is equivalent to twice daily topical 5% but it wasn't a credible source so take that with a grain of salt.

I got the oral minoxidil from Manual:

https://www.manual.co/hair-loss/oral-minoxidil

Getting a dermatologist to prescribe a lower dose oral minoxidil costs an arm and a leg here in the UK, so can't afford that. Insofar as I am aware, a GP can't prescribe it, but I may be wrong. I think one may need to get a compounding pharmacy involved too.

I may try wait around 2 weeks, and then see if taking 2.5mg once a week makes any difference, but suspect that will do zilch in terms of my hair, but who knows.

[Heisenberg]

2 hours ago, jfally said:

I remember reading 2.5mg oral daily is equivalent to twice daily topical 5% but it wasn't a credible source so take that with a grain of salt.

I think the dermatologist that I referred to in this thread said it was equivalent to around 0.5mg a day, but he didn't seem too sure.

[Heisenberg]

The chest pain seems to be abating, so I think it's fair to say that it was most likely caused by the oral minoxidil.

[Heisenberg]

Looks like one may be able to use a pill cutter to cut these in half:

https://www.oxfordonlinepharmacy.co.uk/hair-loss/minoxidil-loniten

[Heisenberg]

This hair transplant surgeon says that he can't recommend oral minoxidil due to the poor clinical studies and safety issues:

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Heisenberg

[BackFromTheBrink]

21 minutes ago, Heisenberg said:

This hair transplant surgeon says that he can't recommend oral minoxidil due to the poor clinical studies and safety issues:

 

That's not what I heard. He can't recommend it because there have not been any large double blind trials. i.e he doesn't have enough evidence to make a determination of the risk/reward.

There have been several large retrospective analysis of patients using oral minoxidyl and no serious safety concerns were reported from any of the patients. They're not poor clinic studies, they just do not meet his standard of evidence to make a recommendation to his patients.

If anything, the evidence he presented would make me more likely to take the medication.

I can understand him being very cautious, just as it sounds like he would be with oral dutasteride.

[Heisenberg]

10 minutes ago, BackFromTheBrink said:

That's not what I heard. He can't recommend it because there have not been any large double blind trials. i.e he doesn't have enough evidence to make a determination of the risk/reward.

There have been several large retrospective analysis of patients using oral minoxidyl and no serious safety concerns were reported from any of the patients. They're not poor clinic studies, they just do not meet his standard of evidence to make a recommendation to his patients.

You've essentially repeated what I have said, but have said it differently in terms of semantics. If he doesn't believe the studies so far are good enough to meet his standards, or good standards, they are essentially poor in his opinion.

[Heisenberg]

15 minutes ago, BackFromTheBrink said:

There have been several large retrospective analysis of patients using oral minoxidyl and no serious safety concerns were reported from any of the patients. 

When did he say that? He actually said that the drug could kill you.

[GoliGoliGoli]

15 minutes ago, BackFromTheBrink said:

There have been several large retrospective analysis of patients using oral minoxidyl and no serious safety concerns were reported from any of the patients. 

Which studies? The one most people mention is the one of approximately 1400 patients, but I'm pretty sure they only looked at patients who had already been using OM for 3 months. 

[Heisenberg]

33 minutes ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

Which studies? The one most people mention is the one of approximately 1400 patients, but I'm pretty sure they only looked at patients who had already been using OM for 3 months. 

Does that potentially mean that some patients stopped using the drug in less than 3 months in due to side effects?

Edited July 24, 2023 by Heisenberg

[GoliGoliGoli]

24 minutes ago, Heisenberg said:

Does that potentially mean that some patients stopped using the drug in less than 3 months in due to side effects?

Well, it just means that anyone who stopped prior to being on it for 3 months weren't included in the study.

There was some talk about this in a thread a few weeks back around the confusion of who was and wasn't included in that study. 

[Heisenberg]

1 minute ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

Well, it just means that anyone who stopped prior to being on it for 3 months weren't included in the study.

There was some talk about this in a thread a few weeks back around the confusion of who was and wasn't included in that study. 

Those are arguably the most important subjects in the study in terms of safety.

[Heisenberg]

This is just my humble opinion, but if you tolerate topical minoxidil well, and you see some results, I would stay away from oral minoxidil, as the health risks are just too concerning, and probably not worth the risk for the sake of slightly thicker hair.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Heisenberg

[Melvin- Admin]

1 hour ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

Which studies? The one most people mention is the one of approximately 1400 patients, but I'm pretty sure they only looked at patients who had already been using OM for 3 months. 

No, that was false. I asked Dr. Vaño specifically, and he said they reviewed patients for 3 months, not they had taken it for 3 months prior.

[Melvin- Admin]

To dispel the misinformation about patients being excluded, I’m posting Dr. Vaños response. 

[GoliGoliGoli]

13 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

To dispel the misinformation about patients being excluded, I’m posting Dr. Vaños response. 

Kevin shows this quote from the paper  in his video. To me, this reads that anyone taking OM taking for less than 3 months was excluded from being observed in the study. Otherwise the range would be 0-79 months?
 

I’m happy to be wrong here (And even happier for my chume Kevin to be wrong) but I don’t see anything in the above texts that addresses his question. 

[Heisenberg]

Well, I must be an exception, as with that South African lady who developed pericardial effusion etc., who was on far less than 5mg daily, as I was only on 2.5mg, and I noticed serious side effects within a week. Something doesn't seem to add up.