HIV+ patient

[whathair]

I did hair transplant few years ago, in Europe, Belgium. All good. I am HIV- STD consultant.

 

I have a friend who is looking to do a hair transplant in Turkey and he is HIV+ undetectable. Now, i work with HIV and STD, so i was astonished to find out, that mainly Turkey flat out refused to treat HIV+ undetectable patients, and few who offered to do the work asked double pay.  Yes double pay, first he got quoted 3,200 and after he disclosed his status, it jumped to 6,500 euros!!!

 

Anyone who is medical person should very well know undetectable = nontransferable. Possibility catching HIV from an undetectable HIV+ patient is ZERO. In addition if stigma and fear and maybe other things still exist - all medical personal should be familiar with PEP , post exposure prophylaxis.

 

And anyone who will say that they do not accept HIV+ undetectable patients due to risk to other patients, need to have their clinic closed immediately, as clearly they are not sterilizing their equipment properly. 

 

So, its very interesting that this is mainly Turkey approach, so would love to hear from other Dr and their policy re HIV+ undetectable patients.

 

Thanks,

 

Mario

[Melvin- Admin]

Why does he need to go to Turkey? You have some of the best surgeons in Belgium. 

[whathair]

I agree re Belgium.

 

Its a bigger issue / question here - why is Turkey discriminating?  Should that be allowed and is it seen as overall good business practice? Should this forum take actions against those Dr who are bluntly discriminating?  Should this forum recommend Dr who are refusing to accept a patient due to HIV status?

 

As medical personal they should know better... really keen to hear back from individual Dr and clinic here re above subject.

[GoliGoliGoli]

Clinics should be free to determine which patients they accept which of course means being free to decline patients for any reason they see fit. Especially considering this is an elective cosmetic surgery. 

Edited October 13, 2022 by GoliGoliGoli

[Al - Moderator]

This is elective surgery. It's an extremely bad idea to start telling Drs which patients they have to work on. The botch jobs will increase dramatically if you start forcing Drs to work on people who they declined.

 

 

[Alphaone]

Why is it a bad thing? This is a great thing and at least one positive from Turkish hairmills that at least they put patient safety first.

It’s ridiculous you’re using the discrimination card.

How many drugs you take every few hours to keep the virus from literally eating your immune system and gain the “undetectable” status by lab standards?. What will happen if you oops miss the dose by a few hours or at least once or twice? When that happens, are there any treatments available or will you suffer an excruciating death taking antibiotics, antifungals, antivirals that majority of people can’t even pronounce. What kind of nasty germs that an average human will NEVER get because their immune system is good and we only knew about them when HIV became a thing. Tell us what AIDS is? A living corpse. The nasties you get after dying in grave, those nasties you get while living and alive.
 

You aren’t undetectable mate, you have an incurable disease. I don’t want to assume how you got it from indiscriminating sex but think about the virgin poor sobs who go to Turkey to get hair transplant and have a chance at experiencing normal hetero sex just once and you gift them with a disease worst than death sentence. Don’t be selfish. 
 

Quarantine is a wonderful thing, humanity would’ve been wiped if we didn’t quarantine the sick from healthy.

 

Thanks

 

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Alphaone

[mafpe]

11 hours ago, whathair said:

And anyone who will say that they do not accept HIV+ undetectable patients due to risk to other patients, need to have their clinic closed immediately, as clearly they are not sterilizing their equipment properly. 

while i understand you're sympathetic to HIV patients, "need to have their clinic closed" is basically doing a cancel culture. even with proper sterilizing, it's a possible risk, either by negligence, or human error. even robots have error margin.

i understand what you mean, but as a bussiness, most people would like to minimize the risk, for longevity of the work. there is also the worry of that if they're off meds, the patient themselves would be at risk, not to mention some doctors who doesn't know if the meds would cause complications on the surgery.

if you're putting it that way, you'd be the same as the poster above me who simply put every HIV people in one basket, like how he categorize every people who has HIV have sex indiscriminately. heck from the last sentence, he'd want to make a concentration camp for people with HIV.

[whathair]

I can see lost of misinformation, stereotype and fear ( and some hate).

Today, HIV+ people take 1 daily tablet, and with that tablet in short period of time they are undetectable. Undetectable dos not chnage if you dont take one or two tablet, or if you take any other tablet - or for any other reason.  I know its hard for many of you to get up to date with progress of medicine but today being HIV+ is nothing else that stigma.

Health is not affected if person is on antiviral medication.  They live normal life and can have kids and unprotected sex - and HIV is not passed on to kids ( mother to child) and sexual partners.

 

@Alphaoneyour hate and ignorance is astonishing. First , i am HIV- but that make no difference here, your hate and ignorance is blocking you to that level that you could not read the original post correctly and see that i work with HIV in STD clinic. So maybe instead of suggesting an concentration camp for HIV+ people, try to open your listening ears : there is no possibility of transmition from an undetectable HIV+ person. Chances anyone getting HIV from HIV+ undetectable is : ZERO

 

If clinic refuse patient on base of HIV status - yes its discrimination as same if they refuse someone because of color of their skin or religion. HIV+ undetectable are of no risk to anyone at all, i know many of you who dont work in the field still dont fully understand what undetectable means. If clinic refuses service as they feel they cant do a good job for them - fine. But if its solo based on their HIV status - then its discrimination.

 

HIV dos not live long outside of body, its actually very fragile and any dry blood or similar is not enough for transmition.  Clinic refusing HIV patient is wrong as there is NO danger to any other patient, and medical personal should know that - so if medical personal refuses then they are doing this on other grounds.

 

@mafpe if person is undetectable - there is no risk even if there is human error or otherwise during sterilization process.  BTW - there are so many other diseases that can be transferred if sterilization process not done properly, diseases much more deadly and health damaging than HIV. So fear from HIV and misinformation is only thing that plays here, nothing else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by whathair

[Alphaone]

1 hour ago, mafpe said:

like how he categorize every people who has HIV have sex indiscriminately. heck from the last sentence, he'd want to make a concentration camp for people with HIV.

From CDC ( Center for disease control ) 

Comparing Quarantine to what that horrible man did to a certain group is unfair and intentional twisting of my message. 

[whathair]

@Alphaone openly homophobic?   if so just be honest - no need to hide your hate.

 

US - its the worst country when it comes to treating HIV - as in Europe we ask no questions - person who get positive is immediately given FREE medications that suppress the virus for the rest of his/her lifetime.  As such chain of transmition is interrupted - as person on medications CAN NOT transfer the virus.

 

Also, PREP and PEP  easy accessible and free - PREP are tables that protect you against HIV and PEP are tablets that if taken within 72h after exposure to HIV stop the infection altogether.

 

So much progress has been made but hate, hysteria and ignorance - still huge problem. From medical prospective - HIV is no longer the issue - its now social issue of people being educated.

[Alphaone]

4 minutes ago, whathair said:

@Alphaone openly homophobic?   if so just be honest - no need to hide your hate.

 

US - its the worst country when it comes to treating HIV - as in Europe we ask no questions - person who get positive is immediately given FREE medications that suppress the virus for the rest of his/her lifetime.  As such chain of transmition is interrupted - as person on medications CAN NOT transfer the virus.

 

Also, PREP and PEP  easy accessible and free - PREP are tables that protect you against HIV and PEP are tablets that if taken within 72h after exposure to HIV stop the infection altogether.

 

So much progress has been made but hate, hysteria and ignorance - still huge problem. From medical prospective - HIV is no longer the issue - its now social issue of people being educated.

I don’t know why you or mafpe are trying to deny simple basic facts everyone knows. You get sexually transmitted diseases from bumping uglies with way too many people, it’s not going to happen if you are in a monogamous relationship with one person. The chances are specially higher if you’re gay. The graph from CDC confirms it. As a straight man, you will have to work really hard to catch it because the vaginal juices naturally kill it and the virus has to work really hard. It literally was discovered in gay men. I don’t know why mafpe and you are pretending it’s like cold, you wake one day and catch it, no. 

 

If you’re HIV consultant or whatever, you’re doing a disservice to people painting a rosy picture of the disease and using labels and politicising my posts. 
 

 

[whathair]

@Alphaone hahah : the vaginal juice naturally kill it.... i think other type of juice naturally killed something in you...  your statement is so stupid that i have no words for it. You are beyond ignorant and i hope no one believes stupidity you are speeding online. 

 

Having STD is a normal thing. Nothing to be ashamed from.  People make big fuss with anything connected with sex - everything gets blown out of proportions.

 

Language you are using : bumping uglies - says a lot about you and your hate and judgment.

 

Gay population have higher HIV transmition due to one simple fact: they have more sex.  While straight guy will have xx numbers of girls in his life itme, gay guy will have that in a month. Good for them!  Lets not judge, hate and be ignorant.

 

 

[Fue3361]

I just want to point out that you're wrong @whathair .  Gay people have higher HIV transmission simply because anal sex is extremely high transmission rate, compared to vaginal sex, not because they have "more sex".  I think transmission rate for vaginal sex is something like what, 2%?  

As to the clinic refusing service, while it is a form of medical discrimination towards people with a disease, I disagree on advocating for said clinics to be closed.  When it comes to elective surgery, a clinic should be allowed to choose its own patients, regardless of reasons.  This is not a public necessity.  

Edited October 14, 2022 by Fue3361

[mafpe]

3 hours ago, whathair said:

@mafpe if person is undetectable - there is no risk even if there is human error or otherwise during sterilization process.  BTW - there are so many other diseases that can be transferred if sterilization process not done properly, diseases much more deadly and health damaging than HIV. So fear from HIV and misinformation is only thing that plays here, nothing else.

i know, thank you however for clarifying so that the community and more people could understand and stigmatize HIV less. HIV is somewhat of a boogeyman in many country.
the problem lies with the people however, such as there is risk of human error on cleaning, or the patient themselves. if the patient doesnt take the med for some time, the viral load can become positive again, and sometime, people lies about their HIV status, due to fear and other reason. this is the human part.

 

2 hours ago, Alphaone said:

From CDC ( Center for disease control ) 

Comparing Quarantine to what that horrible man did to a certain group is unfair and intentional twisting of my message. 

is it only horrible if it's compared to hitler and nobody else?
i do know the HIV ratio is way skewed on gay men especially, seeing how... profilic they can be in unsafe sex. 

11 hours ago, Alphaone said:

You aren’t undetectable mate, you have an incurable disease. I don’t want to assume how you got it from indiscriminating sex but think about the virgin poor sobs who go to Turkey to get hair transplant and have a chance at experiencing normal hetero sex just once and you gift them with a disease worst than death sentence. Don’t be selfish. 
 

Quarantine is a wonderful thing, humanity would’ve been wiped if we didn’t quarantine the sick from healthy.

 

Thanks

this is the paragraph why i said what i said. now in hindsight, i might have mistaken what you mean, as the quarantine part if we're just seeing it as quarantine is a vibale and good method of preventing spread of disease etc, which i agree. the problem lies with how the wording is before the quarantine sentence, and that combined with the sentence produce an implication, albeit not explicitly, intended or not.

for this, i apologize if i misunderstood your wording.

1 hour ago, Alphaone said:

I don’t know why you or mafpe are trying to deny simple basic facts everyone knows. You get sexually transmitted diseases from bumping uglies with way too many people, it’s not going to happen if you are in a monogamous relationship with one person. The chances are specially higher if you’re gay. The graph from CDC confirms it. As a straight man, you will have to work really hard to catch it because the vaginal juices naturally kill it and the virus has to work really hard. It literally was discovered in gay men. I don’t know why mafpe and you are pretending it’s like cold, you wake one day and catch it, no. 

If you’re HIV consultant or whatever, you’re doing a disservice to people painting a rosy picture of the disease and using labels and politicising my posts. 
 

technicalities aside, you get infected for having unprotected sex with someone with a positive viral load. vaginal juice does NOT negate it, but yes it is somewhat acidic that it would kill many microorganism, and it would kill some amount of the virus, but not all which means it helps prevent but it's not that effective. HIV way more prevalent in gay man yes, because gay man seems to have sex way more freely, and what @The comeback king , and not using protection (maybe because they don't get pregnant and think it's fine to do it unprotected... like some people who swears by "pull out technique").

 

*edit on extrapolation of the vaginal juices... killing HIV

Edited October 14, 2022 by mafpe

[Alphaone]

@mafpe @The comeback king @whathair

I didn’t want to go too technical so oversimplified it to juices - what’s inside the organ. Here is the correct technical info on how vagina is a harsh environment for HIV.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23789590/

The female reproductive tract has special features in terms of immunological organization, an epithelial barrier, microbiota, and influence by sex hormones such as estrogen. 

The endogenous vaginal microbiota may protect against HIV by direct production of antiviral compounds, through blocking of adhesion and transmission by ligands such as lectins, and/or by stimulation of immune responses. 
 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11364659/

Vaginal health is related to the risk of acquiring or transmitting HIV and other STDs. Significant factors in that risk analysis include pH level, local immune factors, hormone levels, menstrual cycle, sexual maturity, the use of contraceptives, douching, and sexual practices. The vagina, if healthy, has a number of natural protections against HIV and STDs. Inflammation can contribute to increased disease susceptibility, and can be caused either by organisms or mechanical trauma. High levels of HIV in vaginal secretions are directly associated with high plasma levels, and there is some correlation to cervicovaginal secretions levels as well. 

 

[RTC]

It's their right to determine who they treat, it is a private surgery after all.

[RTC]

1 hour ago, whathair said:

@Alphaone.

 

Gay population have higher HIV transmition due to one simple fact: they have more sex.  While straight guy will have xx numbers of girls in his life itme, gay guy will have that in a month. Good for them!  Lets not judge, hate and be ignorant.

 

 

This isn't strictly true though is it? The mechanisms of anal sex make HIV far easier to catch than standard hetero intercourse.

Edited October 14, 2022 by RTC

[mafpe]

14 minutes ago, RTC said:

This isn't strictly true though is it? The mechanisms of anal sex make HIV far easier to catch than standard hetero intercourse.

not "strictly", but it is true. apparently anal lining is very absorbent, meaning even if it's hetero but doing anal sex, the risk is the same.
thing is that gay men have sex very frequently compared to heteros, and they do it very freely. women are more careful with having sex everywhere, as it can demean them socially (applies to gay men, but less discrimination because many are doing it). not to mention, protection... i found out that gay men have sex without protection somewhat often. couple that with that they literally... f**k around... and tada, tons of HIV occurence. at least with women, protection are more prevalent due to risk of pregnancy, and the natural defense like alpha posted, which helps. 

[RTC]

3 minutes ago, mafpe said:

not "strictly", but it is true. apparently anal lining is very absorbent, meaning even if it's hetero but doing anal sex, the risk is the same.
thing is that gay men have sex very frequently compared to heteros, and they do it very freely. women are more careful with having sex everywhere, as it can demean them socially (applies to gay men, but less discrimination because many are doing it). not to mention, protection... i found out that gay men have sex without protection somewhat often. couple that with that they literally... f**k around... and tada, tons of HIV occurence. at least with women, protection are more prevalent due to risk of pregnancy, and the natural defense like alpha posted, which helps. 

To be fair I was responding to the 'HIV consultant' who said the reason gay men get HIV more is because they have more sex than hetero people.

The reason is because they largely practice anal sex compared to hetersexual people.

Not disagreeing that anal sex in heterosexuals is also risky for HIV, but the likelihood of a straight man or woman even having it in the first place is lower.

Edited October 14, 2022 by RTC

[WhereIsMyMind]

This is a very sensitive topic, however, every clinic and surgeon has the right to accept the patients they want and I don't think anyone can critizise a doctor for not wanting to take any risks with a sensitive situation.

I understand this is horrible experience for HIV+ patients and that most doctors should have better education on how to treat with these patients though. Hope you find a doctor willing to do it, make sure to explain him the risks involved.

[mr_peanutbutter]

they will cure aids before they cure hairloss

[shiba1985]

4 hours ago, whathair said:

I can see lost of misinformation, stereotype and fear ( and some hate).

Today, HIV+ people take 1 daily tablet, and with that tablet in short period of time they are undetectable. Undetectable dos not chnage if you dont take one or two tablet, or if you take any other tablet - or for any other reason.  I know its hard for many of you to get up to date with progress of medicine but today being HIV+ is nothing else that stigma.

Health is not affected if person is on antiviral medication.  They live normal life and can have kids and unprotected sex - and HIV is not passed on to kids ( mother to child) and sexual partners.

 

@Alphaoneyour hate and ignorance is astonishing. First , i am HIV- but that make no difference here, your hate and ignorance is blocking you to that level that you could not read the original post correctly and see that i work with HIV in STD clinic. So maybe instead of suggesting an concentration camp for HIV+ people, try to open your listening ears : there is no possibility of transmition from an undetectable HIV+ person. Chances anyone getting HIV from HIV+ undetectable is : ZERO

 

If clinic refuse patient on base of HIV status - yes its discrimination as same if they refuse someone because of color of their skin or religion. HIV+ undetectable are of no risk to anyone at all, i know many of you who dont work in the field still dont fully understand what undetectable means. If clinic refuses service as they feel they cant do a good job for them - fine. But if its solo based on their HIV status - then its discrimination.

 

HIV dos not live long outside of body, its actually very fragile and any dry blood or similar is not enough for transmition.  Clinic refusing HIV patient is wrong as there is NO danger to any other patient, and medical personal should know that - so if medical personal refuses then they are doing this on other grounds.

 

@mafpe if person is undetectable - there is no risk even if there is human error or otherwise during sterilization process.  BTW - there are so many other diseases that can be transferred if sterilization process not done properly, diseases much more deadly and health damaging than HIV. So fear from HIV and misinformation is only thing that plays here, nothing else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello,

I want to be educated. So let’s say if someone is hiv positive, but with detectable viral, should a clinic tell them to wait till they are undetectable? 
 

Also the meds work for everyone? I have heard this is resistance with some genotype. 
 

what should be a good testing protocol? Get a viral load a week before the surgery? 
 

you can pm me 

[John1991]

3 hours ago, mafpe said:

not "strictly", but it is true. apparently anal lining is very absorbent, meaning even if it's hetero but doing anal sex, the risk is the same.
thing is that gay men have sex very frequently compared to heteros, and they do it very freely. women are more careful with having sex everywhere, as it can demean them socially (applies to gay men, but less discrimination because many are doing it). not to mention, protection... i found out that gay men have sex without protection somewhat often. couple that with that they literally... f**k around... and tada, tons of HIV occurence. at least with women, protection are more prevalent due to risk of pregnancy, and the natural defense like alpha posted, which helps. 

Yes, anal sex increases the risk of transmission, but the bolded portion of your response is also very much a part of this.  The average gay dude has many more options than the average straight dude.  Women are far more discerning with their sexual partners than men are.  Gays still have bathhouses with completely anonymous glory holes and what not.  It's not hateful to say so, they're open and proud about it.  If anything, it would be "denying their existence" not to acknowledge that is very much a part of (some portion) of the gay populations lifestyle.  

[Melvin- Admin]

Alphaone= lookmaxx= banned

This is a sensitive topic. I do agree that private businesses have a right to refuse service, even if the reasoning doesn’t make sense. The reality is save up and go to a clinic in your area or elsewhere. 

As for transmission, it’s both, the access to sex any time with multiple partners and the sex itself that makes it more transmissible in a community. I don’t know why we’re on this subject. It has nothing to do with the original topic.

I believe there are simple testing that can be done to ensure the patient is testing negative. But also, businesses are private entities that can refuse service to anyone. 
 

OP, as I said, your friend has options. Save up and go in Belgium, or do nothing. Doing nothing is never a bad option, good luck. 

[John1991]

So the guy who plays the race card in a way that would make Al Sharpton proud - Looksmaxx - gets outraged when someone responds to his inane post and claims they are the ones using the "discrimination card."  Classic.

Edited October 14, 2022 by John1991