Think this is 2500 FUE grafts? HRI - Bloomington, MN

[jim_hair]

Hello All,

I recently had a FUE procedure of 2500 grafts at Hair Restoration Institute in Bloomington, MN. The surgeon was Dr. Gary Petrus.  These are some pics up to day 5 (today 7-27-21) In your opinions, does this look like 2500 grafts were delivered? How about the spacing between grafts? In my opinion, the spacing seems much further apart than what I see online and in these forums. As seen in the pics below I counted the scabs on recipient area and donor site, they both match up pretty well unfortunately for their counts.. I know I should trust my doctor to be ethical but when there's only about 50% of the number of scabs present that raises a HUGE RED FLAG! Any opinions would be helpful, as I'm about to bring this up when I go in next.

I've attached pics that I marked up on Paint showing only 658 harvest wounds on the largest area of donor site. I may have missed some handfuls, but I doubt it, so lets call it 700. They did harvest pretty dense on the sides up to the top of my ear in a more narrow area. But, that couldn't possibly account for the 1800 remaining graft marks. To my knowledge they harvest a graft 1 by 1, and it is unethical to split 2-3 hair grafts to fill in the slots... That would be a huge waste of my more dense follicles. Anyone have a different opinion on why my count could be inaccurate? Anyone agree with my count? Any opinion is valued.

I've attached the original and marked scab count on the recipient site, both right and left side counted separately so I could zoom in better. As you'll see I only count 1164 or so scabs. Funny how these numbers basically line up with eachother.  I went to another Top Surgeon in Minnesota and they agree that my suspicions are accurate.  What are your opinions?

Also, do you think I was overharvested on the last pics or is 2 weeks too soon to tell?

Thanks for your comments!

Edited August 11, 2021 by jim_hair

[ML488]

Hope you show the clinic your count pics and get half your money back.

[ITA]

In fact yes, the graft density seems pretty low, who is this top surgeon in Minnesota?  What prompted you to go to him?  Have you seen / talked to other patients who have undergone the same procedure with the same doctor?

[Silent1234]

Sometimes two grafts can be planted in the same incision hole. Though this doesn't look like 2500 grafts. What has the clinic said?

[Britanium]

Was this Bosley? When you say you then went to a reputable Clinics advice was it Dr Shapiro? These are opposite ends of the hair transplant spectrum.

The work is poor and yes the graft count is very suspect. Even 2500 hairs not grafts may be a push. I really hope that they didn’t take too many grafts so you have more available for another transplant. The hairline isn’t at all refined unfortunately. I would really like to be more positive but they have done a poor job and the donor looks messy. Sorry man. I bet it was quite expensive too? 

[jim_hair]

53 minutes ago, ML488 said:

Hope you show the clinic your count pics and get half your money back.

That's the plan.  I was advised by another surgeon to go in after 6 months so I can better demonstrate the poor results..

[jim_hair]

32 minutes ago, Egy said:

In fact yes, the graft density seems pretty low, who is this top surgeon in Minnesota?  What prompted you to go to him?  Have you seen / talked to other patients who have undergone the same procedure with the same doctor?

The top clinics in Minnesota are Shapiro and HTS in my opinion.  I went to HRI for the surgery, but went to the other clinic to see if they agreed with my analysis of underdelivered grafts.  One has agreed that I didn't get 2500 grafts.  Seeing the other early next month.  Going to get scheduled to correct / improve this surgery with one of them as well. 

I met one other patient in the hallway (day of my procedure), who was coming in to schedule a 2nd surgery.  He showed me his before and afters for the same 2500 FUE procedure.. Results looked horrible.

[Gasthoerer]

This clinic did you a favor ... they wasted less of your precious grafts and donor. And less grafts than contracted (if you paid by graft) is one of the very few realistic chances to actually get some money back. 

I would never set a foot back into this "clinic" and this time do some real research. 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Gasthoerer

[jim_hair]

31 minutes ago, Silent1234 said:

Sometimes two grafts can be planted in the same incision hole. Though this doesn't look like 2500 grafts. What has the clinic said?

I've brought this up to them already.  They didn't have much to say except, "don't worry, we're ethical and surgeons license' are on the line so they wouldn't sandbag you on grafts."  They also said that; many of the grafts could've fallen out already (shedding) but these pics are 2-3 days post op.. Also said that they put more than one graft in an incision sometimes, that not all incisions will form scabs (because of the frequent use of saline..).  They said that they transect some of the grafts so I won't have 2500 donor holes.. which is crazy, that increases death rate of grafts and lightens their workload so as to be more profitable.  

Plan to go in in a few months to crack down on them and demand a discount / post my experience in every review outlet I can find.

[jim_hair]

On 8/11/2021 at 11:15 AM, JohnAC71 said:

Was this Bosley? When you say you then went to a reputable Clinics advice was it Dr Shapiro? These are opposite ends of the hair transplant spectrum.

The work is poor and yes the graft count is very suspect. Even 2500 hairs not grafts may be a push. I really hope that they didn’t take too many grafts so you have more available for another transplant. The hairline isn’t at all refined unfortunately. I would really like to be more positive but they have done a poor job and the donor looks messy. Sorry man. I bet it was quite expensive too? 

No, I had my surgery at Hair Restoration Institute in Bloomington, MN.  I've met with HTS and am meeting with Shapiro next month to see if they agree with my logic in that I didn't get the grafts I paid for.  One has already agreed with my analysis.. So will be going in for a refund in a few months per their rec.

I only estimated 1200 donor punches.  So, I should have much left.  However, my right side is already patchy, possibly managed to over harvest that side even with their low graft count.  Guess I actually lucked out that they didn't deliver the actual amount of grafts in that aspect.  Moreover, HTS says they wouldn't rec. a FUE and suggested FUT.

Plan on getting half that back when I crack down on them in the coming months.  Super dissatisfied. 

[ML488]

"No Scarring" on their homepage.

That should have been the first huge red flag.

[jim_hair]

On 8/11/2021 at 11:26 AM, Gasthoerer said:

This clinic did you a favor ... they wasted less of your precious grafts and donor. And less grafts than contracted (if you paid by graft) is one of the very few realistic chances to actually get some money back. 

I would never set a foot back into this "clinic" and this time do some real research. 

Yeah they guaranteed a minimum of 2500 grafts and I have their post op paperwork saying that's what they delivered..  So got them there.  But yes, I'm actually happy in the sense that they left grafts for someone better to utilize.  However, they managed to slightly overharvest my right side with this little graft count.  Not crazy, but you it's easy to see it's thinner and see through after 15 days post op.  New surgeon suggested FUT but I would hate to do that!

Thanks for your comment!  It was Hair Restoration Institute in Bloomington, MN.  Dr. Gary Petrus and the crew.

[jim_hair]

2 minutes ago, ML488 said:

"No Scarring" on their homepage.

That should have been the first huge red flag.

Yeah I was impulsive with my decision.  Definitely regretting that.  Just hoping I don't get pitting/cobblestoning from their lack of experience now and that I heal well so I can get another done to correct it at a better clinic!  Thanks for the comment.

[Britanium]

The work looks similar to Bosley, poor hairlines and low density. I do believe HRI has come up before on the forum. 
It’s good your going to Shapiro and getting their feedback. Be really interested to hear what they say. At best lets hope your implanted grow so are not totally wasted. And hope they have not grafted multis in the hairline. 
Thanks for posting though and showing what’s happening ! If it puts just one person off this poor “clinic” then it’s of massive benefit. 

[jim_hair]

1 minute ago, JohnAC71 said:

The work looks similar to Bosley, poor hairlines and low density. I do believe HRI has come up before on the forum. 
It’s good your going to Shapiro and getting their feedback. Be really interested to hear what they say. At best lets hope your implanted grow so are not totally wasted. And hope they have not grafted multis in the hairline. 
Thanks for posting though and showing what’s happening ! If it puts just one person off this poor “clinic” then it’s of massive benefit. 

Oh?  I'll have to look into HRI on here and see if I can find anything.

I actually think they did put some multi's on the hairline.  When I was checking it out I found a couple but they said, "those are just 2 single put very close to eachother."  These guys will talk their way out of everything even with blatant evidence in their face it's astounding.  

Yes, I'm going to post a more refined outline of this story on every review I can find at the appropriate time..  Plan on waiting a few months to see how things grow in before I "break their arm" on the refund and post my reviews.

Thanks for your comments!

[Britanium]

Wow they are full of bs. We can see by the pics it’s not a high density hairline, yet they come out with that nonsense? A multi graft will be very evident when it’s grown out. Let’s hope there isn’t too many and a future ht will disguise them. 

[jim_hair]

16 minutes ago, JohnAC71 said:

Wow they are full of bs. We can see by the pics it’s not a high density hairline, yet they come out with that nonsense? A multi graft will be very evident when it’s grown out. Let’s hope there isn’t too many and a future ht will disguise them. 

Yeah I'm hoping they didn't completely butcher my scalp.  Worried that they may have caused pitting and overharvested part of donor but waiting a couple months before making that call. 

Looking forward to getting this corrected at Shapiro, just lame I have to wait a year to get another one done as to not damage the current new grafts.  Thanks for the comments/help!

[Berba11]

@jim_hair - I'd echo everyone else's initial sentiments.

One thing that hasn't come up yet... How long (if you recall), were you actually in surgery for? Excluding lunch breaks etc...? Knowing how many hours the surgery took (from administering anaesthetic through to the last graft being implanted) can help give a pretty firm idea of how likely it is that 2,500 grafts were actually extracted/implanted.

For a careful, diligent, non-rushed surgery, you'd likely be looking at around the 5-6 hour mark (maybe more) for ≈2500. It's not an exact science - some clinics will be quicker than others, some will split the surgery over two days... But it will allow you to work out to a fairly accurate degree how many seconds it was taking them to fully transplant each graft. When you get down the 4 or 5 seconds per graft range, alarm bells should probably start ringing.

[Britanium]

Good point @Berba11 ! Be interesting to hear more details about the transplant itself. 

[Berba11]

Ps, your 11 day post-op donor area pics don't look too bad at all. In fact I think they look fairly standard for a donor area that won't have fully healed and may just be suffering a little bit of shock loss. Obviously, you'll have to wait a few months to properly assess that but it's probably nothing to worry about at this stage. My fingers are certainly crossed for you. And frankly if they have undercooked the extraction, that's probably terrific news. I suspect that if this clinic had taken 2,500 grafts from the back of your head, your donor would be in a right state.

[BDK081522]

5 hours ago, Silent1234 said:

Sometimes two grafts can be planted in the same incision hole. Though this doesn't look like 2500 grafts. What has the clinic said?

This is completely and utterly false. 

[PluggedIn]

Do you have any pre op pictures you could share with us?

[deeznuts]

9 hours ago, jim_hair said:

I've brought this up to them already.  They didn't have much to say except, "don't worry, we're ethical and surgeons license' are on the line so they wouldn't sandbag you on grafts."  They also said that; many of the grafts could've fallen out already (shedding) but these pics are 2-3 days post op.. Also said that they put more than one graft in an incision sometimes, that not all incisions will form scabs (because of the frequent use of saline..).  They said that they transect some of the grafts so I won't have 2500 donor holes.. which is crazy, that increases death rate of grafts and lightens their workload so as to be more profitable.  

Plan to go in in a few months to crack down on them and demand a discount / post my experience in every review outlet I can find.

Wait, do doctors count transected grafts as part of the graft count? That's pretty ridiculous if doctors are actually encouraged to transect your grafts for an easier payday. Just transect the grafts and you don't even need to do an incision/implant. Half the work for the same pay

Is this a thing across all clinics or just this clinic? What's the industry standard

[Legend007]

They ain’t giving u a refund unless u get necrosis .. or some sort of disaster .. It’s a big deal to refund someone , where they will have to eat the cost . N admit total fault..  N that won’t be easy .. it’s not like a product u are returning . It’s services that were provided that didn’t turn out well..

So play it smart and document stuff n be professional when when u deal with them .. 

[jim_hair]

13 hours ago, Berba11 said:

@jim_hair - I'd echo everyone else's initial sentiments.

One thing that hasn't come up yet... How long (if you recall), were you actually in surgery for? Excluding lunch breaks etc...? Knowing how many hours the surgery took (from administering anaesthetic through to the last graft being implanted) can help give a pretty firm idea of how likely it is that 2,500 grafts were actually extracted/implanted.

For a careful, diligent, non-rushed surgery, you'd likely be looking at around the 5-6 hour mark (maybe more) for ≈2500. It's not an exact science - some clinics will be quicker than others, some will split the surgery over two days... But it will allow you to work out to a fairly accurate degree how many seconds it was taking them to fully transplant each graft. When you get down the 4 or 5 seconds per graft range, alarm bells should probably start ringing.

Hey @Berba11 , I arrived at 7:00am and was out of surgery at 4:00pm.  I'd say with taking the pre-op signatures, discussions, and pre-op photo shoot it took 1.5 hours to get started.  Then a 30 minute lunch break.  Wifi went down for 30 minutes so Neograft machine wasn't operable during that time.  So maybe 6.0 hours - 7.0 hours of operation time, making it about 8.64 to 10.8 seconds per graft if it was 2500.  I was in and out of it so not positive they operated that entire time though.  Also, they had 3-4 surgeries in entirety that day..  The proof is in the pudding they say though, if there's only 1200 scabs and a very similar number of punch marks, it's funny how they line up.  I can't come up with any explanation I believe on why there wouldn't be evidence that 2500 grafts were placed 3 days post op.  Whether that be scabs, hairs protruding where there aren't scabs, or any signature showing something was done..  Thanks for your comment the time-lapse is an interesting way to analyze this.