FUT is more popular than FUE

[Nowsthetime9]

Why would lorenzo bother? He showcases his results very regularly with HD videos,all angles,wet,dry, comb through shaven donors zoomed on and out on showing amazing transformations!! The likes of him and feriduni are booked up for upto 12 months or more in advance so why would he bother,

His results are all he needs to put out there, results are all that matters in the end! He doesn't need the business, so you see apple constantly trying to point out the flaws in android? Nope, they don't need to, they stick to what there good at!! The top ranking fue Dr's won't be remotely threatened by this thread or Dr feller,they will just keep doing what their doing!!! We all know if you want good fue then you don't usually go to the states, koniour I'd imagine would be good, haven't seen any matured results yet but probably will be good, vories seems to be the most consistent out there at the moment along with diep who seems good also apart from that not that many! The laws stopping tech involvement mean that most Dr's can't perform larger sessions there hence why Dr feller sees poor results I'd imagine! Europe and particularly Belgium and Turkey seem to lead the way with fue and Manchester when lorenzo was there for a year!

 

Exactly the reason why I chose Dr. Lorenzo for my next procedure in a few weeks. Ultimately it comes down to results and videos dont lie. Picked a reputable, reccommended Doctor for my first FUE procedure that didnt turn out so well and this time around I decided to go with who I feel is the best at FUE, Lorenzo. I will be posting my experience as well so hopefully everything turns out alright.

[lileli]

How much does Dr. Lorenzo charge? He is not recommended here right?

[LondonHTseeker]

You should look before you leap Shera. London seeker had FUE from a doctor who uses a far better technique than yours and still did not grow well. There is also more to London's case than you are letting on here. You are being disingenuous and you know it. Pretty desperate.

 

 

Dr Feller, I don't even know the name of the doctor who did my FUE op (which occurred around 5 years after your second HT on me, which is the one Shera refers to) so I doubt you do! It was an assistant doctor for a budget price Turkish clinic. The procedure was very rushed and my donor area was raped. I'm sure Dr Bhatti's a better surgeon than the young doctor who did mine was. That said, growth was actually OK. It was likely at least 70%, but how much more I don't know - just as I don't know how many grafts actually grew in my second HT with you. The Dr Bhatti example Shera supplied does depress me slightly as I really don't understand why I've used approx. 6500 grafts for the front of my hair so far.

 

Anyway, I'm patiently waiting for our meeting at the start of October, Dr Feller. I'm steadfastly hoping you'll be willing to honour your offer of a free mFuE surgery on me! In which case I'll be very grateful and will hopefully be able to permanently consign to the past my hair transplant operation treadmill.

Edited August 15, 2015 by LondonHTseeker
to correct operation times

[1978matt]

I don't think the doc (and I'm sure he will correct me if I'm wrong) is saying you can never get 90%+ yield with FUE. All he's saying is that the average of 100 good FUE results will be lower than 100 equivalent FUT.

 

I've thrown together an illustration of this: # of patients versus % yield.

 

You can still get lousy results with either method but FUT will be more reliable.

[1978matt]

Dr Feller's opinion is NOT worth zero. He has over 20 years experience in the business so it is worth far more than any anonymous internet poster.

 

If you feel so strongly about it then why not take up his offer that he made in another thread: "..PM me your name and telephone number and I will stage a 3 way telephone call with Dr Lorenzo and post the conversation on the forum"?

 

So far no one has been willing to take up that offer.

 

You talk about 'controlled study this, and peer reviewed study that' but at the same time you're willing to claim his yield is as high as FUT based on a dozen or so patient posted results!

 

 

Please ask Dr.feller where he came up with those percentages, was it a controlled study? If so where was the study published? If it's just opinion your assumed percentages is worth absolutely zero. Take Dr. Lorenzo's results graft wise and compare it to Dr. Fellers, tell me that Dr. Lorenzo is only getting 75% compared to 90% of Dr. Feller, assumed percentages is absolutely useless, using actual results is the only way one can base a solid opinion other than a controlled study. So what we should do is gather results from both physicians utilizing 2,500 grafts, 3,500 grafts and 4,500 grafts, let's compare 10 results from each category, then we can see if there is an exceptional visible difference in yield.

[Melvin- Admin]

Dr Feller's opinion is NOT worth zero. He has over 20 years experience in the business so it is worth far more than any anonymous internet poster.

 

If you feel so strongly about it then why not take up his offer that he made in another thread: "..PM me your name and telephone number and I will stage a 3 way telephone call with Dr Lorenzo and post the conversation on the forum"?

 

So far no one has been willing to take up that offer.

 

You talk about 'controlled study this, and peer reviewed study that' but at the same time you're willing to claim his yield is as high as FUT based on a dozen or so patient posted results!

 

First of all I made no claims in regards to yield, I said opinions are opinions and facts are facts, you can't state what Dr.Feller is claiming as a scientific fact with out providing actual studies. Now what I said was in order to compare yields from a top FUE surgeon to top FUT is to grab 10 results from each graft size category and compare them, now you have to choose similar Norwood scale and similar hair characteristics in order for this to work, but it would be a lot more credible than percentages made up of one physicians experience. I'd say the same thing if it were Dr. Bhatti giving these figures.

[Melvin- Admin]

Another thing, creating graphs and diagrams based off of opinion is ludicrous, I have to say what's right is right, there is a physician who practiced FUE in Atlanta he has been in practice longer than Dr. Feller and he has the exact opposite to say about FUT, should I start creating graphs based off what he says without proving actual credible evidence?

[1978matt]

Thanks for that. I'm just trying to help people understand where he is coming from since some appear to have misinterpreted it.

 

You continue ranting and I'll continue helping people, as I have done since joining this site over 3 years ago.

 

I take it you won't be having a 3 way telephone call with the doctors. A great shame.

 

 

Another thing, creating graphs and diagrams based off of opinion is ludicrous, I have to say what's right is right, there is a physician who practiced FUE in Atlanta he has been in practice longer than Dr. Feller and he has the exact opposite to say about FUT, should I start creating graphs based off what he says without proving actual credible evidence?

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Dr Feller, I don't even know the name of the doctor who did my FUE op (which occurred a couple of years after your second HT on me, which is the one Shera refers to) so I doubt you do! It was an assistant doctor for a budget price Turkish clinic. The procedure was very rushed and my donor area was raped. I'm sure Dr Bhatti's a better surgeon than the young doctor who did mine was. That said, growth was actually OK. It was likely at least 70%, but how much more I don't know - just as I don't know how many grafts actually grew in my second HT with you. The Dr Bhatti example Shera supplied does depress me slightly as I really don't understand why I've used approx. 6500 grafts for the front of my hair so far.

 

Anyway, I'm patiently waiting for our meeting at the start of October, Dr Feller. I'm steadfastly hoping you'll be willing to honour your offer of a free mFuE surgery on me! In which case I'll be very grateful and will hopefully be able to permanently consign to the past my hair transplant operation treadmill.

 

Ha! Perhaps I should look before I leap!

There is so much going on this thread I do lose track from time to time.

See you in ye old England.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

I don't think the doc (and I'm sure he will correct me if I'm wrong) is saying you can never get 90%+ yield with FUE. All he's saying is that the average of 100 good FUE results will be lower than 100 equivalent FUT.

 

I've thrown together an illustration of this: # of patients versus % yield.

 

You can still get lousy results with either method but FUT will be more reliable.

 

That is exactly what I'm saying, Matt.

 

I've performed FUE procedures with yields of 90% and over. But the number of these high yield FUE procedures fall far short of their equivalent FUT procedures. I don't think you need to be an HT doctor to know this intuitively true when you understand the differences in trauma inflected on the grafts between the two procedures.

 

I ignore the personal swipes and sometimes comical in depth attacks on me. These kinds of posters just expose themselves for what they are. Some are just not worth addressing.

 

The message is getting out there and that's what counts. Unfortunately this thread will run its course and will drop to oblivion and the entire "debate" will start all over again.

 

If this were a courtroom the matter would be closed. But it isn't, so the merry go round will continue to spin.

 

Let's look at it on a positive note: It's probably better to get an FUE or an FUT than nothing. I think everyone can agree with this.

[Dr Blake Bloxham]

Pup,

 

Thanks for breaking that down! It really helps to illustrate the importance of this aspect of the debate.

 

Matt,

 

As usual, dead on! Thanks for sharing.

 

London,

 

Very excited to see you! If there is any procedure that you will be a candidate for, it will be mFUE. I've got a patient coming in the next few weeks who had 3+ strips and plug work done "back in the day," and we are still going to be able to steal RELIABLE grafts with mFUE. If we can do that for you, we will! No doubt.

 

And this actually brings me to something I wanted to mention earlier: a few members were discussing ways to get around the 3 detrimental forces with an FUE technique. Frankly, this is what mFUE is. Obviously it's very new and we're still cautiously trialing it, but this is what allows us to get the "strip results with FUE-like (IE no linear scar) scarring." It's the fact that we score a much wider perimeter, do not twist or grab the individual FUGs, and cut below the bulb opposed to applying force until they avulse during delivery. This, in my mind, is the only way you'll get around the 3 detrimental forces without taking a strip.

[LondonHTseeker]

Ha! Perhaps I should look before I leap!

There is so much going on this thread I do lose track from time to time.

See you in ye old England.

 

Thanks Dr Feller, look forward to seeing you in Old Blighty soon!

 

P.S. I got it wrong about when I got the FUE relative to your second op on me. It was actually around 5 years later. I guess I should put the dates in my signature to avoid confusion.

[LondonHTseeker]

London,

 

Very excited to see you! If there is any procedure that you will be a candidate for, it will be mFUE. I've got a patient coming in the next few weeks who had 3+ strips and plug work done "back in the day," and we are still going to be able to steal RELIABLE grafts with mFUE. If we can do that for you, we will! No doubt.

 

Thanks Dr B! Looking forward to it! You'll see my tricopigmentation work from Milena Lardi, too. It works very well as a temporary cover until further HT work...

[Shera]

Well here's a comparison that we could probably start with.

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/180338-dr-bhatti-2560-fue-grafts-female-patient.html

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/161553-am-i-one-unlucky-few-4-years-post-strip-dr-feller-2.html

 

In the above examples the transplanted surface areas appear to be roughly equal - if anything the woman's is slighter bigger.

 

According to the thread, LondonHTseeker had 2000 FUT grafts from Dr Feller into a bald area at the front (not including his initial FUT surgery with Dr Feller for around 1300 grafts, which seems to have grown well at his original hairline) and the woman had around 2500 via FUE from Dr Bhatti into a similar sized bald area.

 

Now for the million dolhair question, does her thicker result look 500ish grafts thicker?

 

No way!................ It looks A LOT thicker!!

 

Therefore, how did Dr Bhatti's FUE result on her turn out so much better than Dr Feller's FUT result on LondonHTseeker?

 

__________________________________________________

Dr Bhatti FUE Oct 2014 3305 grafts

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/178931-my-'>http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/178931-my-'>http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/178931-my-fue-dr-tejinder-bhatti-oct-2014-a.html'>http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/178931-my-fue-dr-tejinder-bhatti-oct-2014-a.html

 

You should look before you leap Shera. London seeker had FUE from a doctor who uses a far better technique than yours and still did not grow well. There is also more to London's case than you are letting on here. You are being disingenuous and you know it. Pretty desperate.

 

I have avoided discussing individual results, because all it does is create a subjective slinging match that serves nobody. But you just couldn't help yourself could you? So is my next move to start singling out and posting unhappy patients of Dr. Bhatti ? You really want to go there ?

 

Try and stick to focusing on the procedure instead of the surgeon. I know you are trying to stick up for your doctor. Instead, why don't you stick up for his procedure as shown in the video if you can. That would be much more on point and much more civil don't you think?

 

Originally Posted by Dr. Alan Feller View Post

You should look before you leap Shera. London seeker had FUE from a doctor who uses a far better technique than yours and still did not grow well. There is also more to London's case than you are letting on here. You are being disingenuous and you know it. Pretty desperate.

 

Dr Feller, I don't even know the name of the doctor who did my FUE op (which occurred a couple of years after your second HT on me, which is the one Shera refers to) so I doubt you do! It was an assistant doctor for a budget price Turkish clinic. The procedure was very rushed and my donor area was raped. I'm sure Dr Bhatti's a better surgeon than the young doctor who did mine was. That said, growth was actually OK. It was likely at least 70%, but how much more I don't know - just as I don't know how many grafts actually grew in my second HT with you. The Dr Bhatti example Shera supplied does depress me slightly as I really don't understand why I've used approx. 6500 grafts for the front of my hair so far.

 

Anyway, I'm patiently waiting for our meeting at the start of October, Dr Feller. I'm steadfastly hoping you'll be willing to honour your offer of a free mFuE surgery on me! In which case I'll be very grateful and will hopefully be able to permanently consign to the past my hair transplant operation treadmill.

 

Ha! Perhaps I should look before I leap!

There is so much going on this thread I do lose track from time to time.

See you in ye old England.

 

Well it looks like you are the one being disingenuous and you most certainly do know it. Pretty desperate indeed!!

 

You seem to selectively lose track throughout this thread Dr Feller, I hope the same doesn't apply to your patients.

 

There does seem to be a shortage of patients who have actually made the effort to document their wonderful results from your good self. I do hope you are not holding them all captive in your cellar!

__________________________________________________

Dr Bhatti FUE Oct 2014 3305 grafts

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/178931-my-fue-dr-tejinder-bhatti-oct-2014-a.html

[hairtoday-gonetomorrow]

That is exactly what I'm saying, Matt.

 

I've performed FUE procedures with yields of 90% and over. But the number of these high yield FUE procedures fall far short of their equivalent FUT procedures. I don't think you need to be an HT doctor to know this intuitively true when you understand the differences in trauma inflected on the grafts between the two procedures.

 

I ignore the personal swipes and sometimes comical in depth attacks on me. These kinds of posters just expose themselves for what they are. Some are just not worth addressing.

 

The message is getting out there and that's what counts. Unfortunately this thread will run its course and will drop to oblivion and the entire "debate" will start all over again.

 

If this were a courtroom the matter would be closed. But it isn't, so the merry go round will continue to spin.

 

Let's look at it on a positive note: It's probably better to get an FUE or an FUT than nothing. I think everyone can agree with this.

 

I have been following this thread for quite some time. I thank Dr. Feller for starting it as I believe he is honestly trying to educate potential patients. If he were to stop doing FUSS and switch to FUE only, I'm sure he would make more money based on the prices on his website (assuming he would have no problem finding a steady stream of patients who could afford large FUE sessions with him) as well as less overhead.

 

If I were a high norwood, I would definitely strip out and finish it off with FUE. Fortunately I am not. I plan on getting a FUE. If I decide I don't want to continue on Finasteride for the rest of my life, I want the option to shave down to a 1 guard without anyone noticing the scars except probably someone in the hair transplant industry. My head looks pretty good shaved although it definitely looks better with hair.

 

I know that all surgeons are putting their best results online including FUSS and FUE surgeons, but in the humble opinion of this layman the best FUE surgeons seem to be getting better than 75% yield on average.

 

As the good doctor said its better to have either a FUE or FUSS than nothing. Again thanks to Dr. Feller for starting this thread...and by the way Dr. Feller I can think of a few less exciting places to visit than Pittsburgh.

[mav23100gunther]

Thanks Dr Feller, look forward to seeing you in Old Blighty soon!

 

P.S. I got it wrong about when I got the FUE relative to your second op on me. It was actually around 5 years later. I guess I should put the dates in my signature to avoid confusion.

 

London, when you meet with Dr Feller, don't forget to make him clarify the waiting 7 month versus 9 months period between procedures. We are all counting on you for this.

[newbie33]

Dr Feller, maybe 'a-hole' was harsh. Let's just agree you sometimes write in a robust style (though seem quite mild-mannered in the videos). I'm glad of it - robust debate about he facts helps us all learn more and get nearer the truth, even if everyone can feel a little bruised for it.

 

There is just so much marketing spin / non-disclosure / outright untruth in this HT world. Couple that with little serious, scientific trial data - and access to what there is for the laymen. It's incredibly difficult to see the wood for the trees. I'm thankful forums like this exist, and doctors like you participate.

[Kilimanjaro]

Dr. Feller, can you please tell us how you lost all the weight? And also how many hair transplants you have had and how many grafts each time (even if you can't tell the name of your surgeon)?

 

Sorry to sidetrack this thread, but your transformation is amazing (I saw the old videos on your site and it looks like a totally different man) and I did not want to start a new thread with these questions in the off topic section here where Dr. Feller probably never goes!

[Melvin- Admin]

This are very interesting videos from a surgeon who's been in practice for over 20 years, he is on the opposite spectrum of the FUT vs FUE debate, I encourage everyone to watch both videos, they're very informative and although your own research is necessary, it gives you a completely different picture than what has been painted by doctors on this site. The last one raises a lot of good questions regarding multiple strip surgeries.

 

 

(Links removed - sorry, we no longer host any discussions that reference this surgeon)

Edited August 16, 2015 by David - Moderator

[Dr Tejinder Bhatti]

..... you are clearly not in a position to suggest anything to me about the FUE procedure nor my practice.

 

 

I believe that after watching your video, Sir, I am in a much better position than you would have the readers believe. You have yet to address the scientific method and the fact that it demands that you prove your claims before one can disprove your claims. That is the very foundation of modern science which you obviously believe will somehow change if you ignore it.

 

 

What we have observed in this thread thus far are the following:

 

1. Dr. Feller made a statement of fact that "FUT is more popular than FUE". This is akin to saying that coal is more popular than alternative fuels. It is misleading because if one technology is much older, thus having time to become ingrained in society as the norm, it does not mean that it is more popular. It means it is more convenient. I'm sure it could have been said at one point in history that horse & buggies were more popular than internal combustion vehicles.

 

2. Dr. Feller has made a statement of fact that there are three "detrimental" forces on individual follicular units as a direct result of the procedure known as FUE; torsion, traction and compression. The scientific method demands, by definition, that he prove these forces not only exist but more so that they are so detrimental that they cannot be overcome. It is his responsibility to prove his position. I have done my best to prove otherwise. My posting the video which shows that skilled technique and speed of harvest and plantation (Rapid FUE harvest) give consistently good results for FUE megasessions in my hands. The results seldom vary since I do not hire fly-by-night technicians - all extractions on all my patients till date have been done by me ; and therefore my procedure for megasessions is pretty much standardised. There is a reason why megasessions have to be quick. My approach for lesser sessions (<3000 grafts) is pretty much different and I shall post a case for under 3000 grafts very soon. In this video I shall show through professionally taken close-ups how there is not the slightest torsion and that grafts are merely being picked up and seldom pulled after they pop out with minimally invasive 1.5 mm scoring by the punch.

 

3. Dr. Feller is the only doctor in the world that says, even preaches, that these forces are so detrimental that yield is, at best, 75% if performed by Dr. Lorenzo (as stated before his most recent edit) and if his opinion is to be believed Dr. Lorenzo is at the top of the yield game. I happen to believe Dr. Lorenzo is an excellent FUE specialist but his yield, as is my own and that of many others, is significantly higher than "75% at best". If it were any less it would get reflected in the final density achieved- the final density would be 25% lesser.! Which it is not! Our results are at par with those of FUT.

 

4. Many FUE physicians have demonstrated, on a regular basis, excellent results for several years. Dr. Feller's claim is that these results are rare and they would have been much better (at least 20% better to get to 95% yield based on his Dr. Lorenzo reference) had the procedure been FUSS instead of FUE. If 75% is the top tier of what one can expect, what does Dr. Feller tell his FUE patients to expect for yield? Or is it that Dr. Feller feels his FUE is as good as the recognized leaders in the field, the ones that perform FUE day in and day out, and he tells his patients to not expect more than 75% from his own FUE procedure?

 

5. Dr. Feller is implying that every other doctor that makes claims of high yield from FUE, including Dr. Vories and myself, are either mistaken or even being dishonest about the procedure we offer our patients and that somehow the "silence" by the FUE community at large is affirmation of his claims overall. In science and medicine, silence by those that are being attacked does not prove one's attack is valid. For those patients of FUE doctors that are reading this now, understand that he is saying you have been mislead, intentionally or otherwise, by your physician, and even with your excellent results that you are happy with you should understand that you should have expected more with FUSS. The very notion of this possibility is so incredible that it defies convention.

 

I believe I have actual evidence of why Dr. Feller has such a low opinion of FUE that is more powerful and telling than all 70 plus pages of his opinions combined. One need only view his 2009 video to show that the issues he blames for his low FUE yield are due more likely to his shaky hand. If one is not aligning the punch with the follicle properly and the punch with a SHARP cutting edge is wavering so much side to side before an injury is attempted, low yield makes perfect sense.

 

The truth is staring us all in the face.

[Melvin- Admin]

:eek: wow that was quite a post, Dr. Bhatti, did you see the videos I posted on the previous page from a fellow FUE specialist I'd love to hear your thoughts on the issues brought up.

[Dr Tejinder Bhatti]

This are very interesting videos from a surgeon who's been in practice for over 20 years, he is on the opposite spectrum of the FUT vs FUE debate, I encourage everyone to watch both videos, they're very informative and although your own research is necessary, it gives you a completely different picture than what has been painted by doctors on this site. The last one raises a lot of good questions regarding multiple strip surgeries.

 

(Links removed by moderator)

 

Thanks for the links HTsoon.

Very enlightening!

Dr Feller should thank his stars he does not have this senior doctor to contest Dr Feller's claims!! LOL!!

Do you get what I mean?!

Edited August 16, 2015 by David - Moderator

[Eurofue]

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsepkchulm0

 

 

the truth is staring us all in the face.

 

 

pmsl.

[FUEmylife]

The truth is staring us all in the face.

 

With respect Dr. Bhatti, please publish your results in a peer reviewed blinded study. If you did so, it would be groundbreaking.

 

Showing a video of your surgery or individually selected patients does not constitute evidence.

[lileli]

With respect Dr. Bhatti, please publish your results in a peer reviewed blinded study. If you did so, it would be groundbreaking.

 

Showing a video of your surgery or individually selected patients does not constitute evidence.

 

Dr. Bhatti always stated he was speaking from his experience and never claimed it applied to anyone else. However, it would be blind of us to ignore his success and the success of others. He is speaking from his professional opinion that is all.

Edited August 16, 2015 by lileli