FUT is more popular than FUE

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Hi dr feller,

 

As a patient who has had over 6500 grafts fue with dr lorenzo with great results so far, and all his other amazing fue results is this what you mean by an exception to fue. A surgeon who has specialised in fue for many years and I suppose mastering his method of fue to a very high standard!!?

 

 

Pma,

 

I am trying to avoid direct mention of any particular FUE doctors. It is up to them to decide if they wish to come onto this thread and engage. Only after they have done that do I feel the door is open to discussing their particular method and level of accomplishment. Without that it would not be fair. You will notice I never mentioned Dr. Bhatti's name until he himself and his representatives came on here first to engage me.

 

That said, I like Dr. Lorenzo and respect his work more than that of most FUE megasessionists out there.

 

And since you are an FUE patient yourself, how would you compare Dr. Bhatti's method to other FUE methods you may have seen? Would you say it was on par with the care and techniques utilized on yourself?

[Pma]

Hi dr feller,

 

Can't really comment much on dr bhatti's methods as I haven't had him work on me. I will comment on dr lorenzos implanter pen method which he seems to have perfected and in my opinion is a method which seems to manage a 95 percent + yield in fue which is as good as it gets, and as you mentioned on a earlier post if you have fue done you need to research and choose the best surgeons out there to maximise every graft extracted as they can't be wasted! I think you know and agree he is one of the only surgeons who can get consistent results in fue!!?

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Hi dr feller,

 

Can't really comment much on dr bhatti's methods as I haven't had him work on me. I will comment on dr lorenzos implanter pen method which he seems to have perfected and in my opinion is a method which seems to manage a 95 percent + yield in fue which is as good as it gets, and as you mentioned on a earlier post if you have fue done you need to research and choose the best surgeons out there to maximise every graft extracted as they can't be wasted! I think you know and agree he is one of the only surgeons who can get consistent results in fue!!?

 

Sure you can comment on Dr. Bhatti's methods. He put it out there as an example of top flight work and advanced methods. He's very proud of it. Just go to page 70 and click the youtube link of his procedure. It's right there.

 

As far as the implanter pen, it plays no role in the success of FUE results and is not of any advantage over standard methods. Where exactly did this myth begin? It's simply untrue and misinformed. I neither gain nor lose anything by telling the truth about this device, why do so many laymen believe it is some sort of miracle tool?

[Pma]

Well I guess if it's not the implanter pen giving dr lorenzo his high yield in fue it must be purely his skill as a specialist in fue surgery that gives his results. All I'm saying to everyone is do you your homework and in every profession you will find seine who is top of there game.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Well I guess if it's not the implanter pen giving dr lorenzo his high yield in fue it must be purely his skill as a specialist in fue surgery that gives his results. All I'm saying to everyone is do you your homework and in every profession you will find seine who is top of there game.

 

Yup! You got it.

Now compare the video of the technique your doctor uses and that of Dr. Bhatti's. which do you think is superior ? (Hint: it's your doctor's method)

[Michael Vories, MD]

My experience is that Implanter pens have made a dramatic difference in survival. I literally see this everyday in post-op patients. There is a reason I spend the money for the Implanter pens, and a reason I spend every afternoon placing grafts myself. To say they play no role in survival is simply not true.

[Pma]

Ok just watched that video, and being brutally honest nothing like I had the extraction process I had was manual and way less aggressive, but I don't want to talk down about any surgeon all I will say is when I had my extractions with dr lorenzo it was much more controlled and felt like the grafts were being treated with less speed and aggression

[Dr. Alan Feller]

My experience is that Implanter pens have made a dramatic difference in survival. I literally see this everyday in post-op patients. There is a reason I spend the money for the Implanter pens, and a reason I spend every afternoon placing grafts myself. To say they play no role in survival is simply not true.

 

With respect Dr. Vories, I think it is better to simply not produce compromised grafts in the first place for which an implanter pen is need to compensate for later in the procedure. It lowers the odds for success.

 

I also don't agree that standard implantation methods are inferior to the implanter pen method, nor has it been shown by anyone that this is the case. Almost nobody uses these pens in the industry for a reason.

 

On the other hand, I don't see a massive injurious downside to using them either. At best it is a personal preference issue. But miracle protector of skeletonized and weak grafts? I don't think so.

 

So what did you think of Dr. Bhatti's technique as shown in his video? Do you perform FUE this way? Did you see any advanced technology demonstrated? Any issues to your mind?

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Ok just watched that video, and being brutally honest nothing like I had the extraction process I had was manual and way less aggressive, but I don't want to talk down about any surgeon all I will say is when I had my extractions with dr lorenzo it was much more controlled and felt like the grafts were being treated with less speed and aggression

 

I don't want to talk down about any surgeon either. So we won't do that.

 

We will only refer to the surgery itself. Because to NOT discuss the surgery for fear of offending the surgeon would be stifle progress and the natural desire and need to determine if one method is better than the other. A surgeon can't change who he is, but he can change the method and techniques he uses to perform his surgeries.

 

I agree with you that your procedure was in fact performed differently than that performed on the patient in the Bhatti video. Furthermore, having seen the procedure you received on video in the past one is hard pressed to say it could get much better.

 

Dr. Bhatti, have you seen the video produced by Pma's doctor ? Do you feel it differs from your own in any substantive way?

[fortune11]

I just saw the video as well and holy smokes , it raised my hair on its ends , no pun intended . I am considering FUE for my next procedure (no scalp laxity left for any more FUT) , but now I probably will need to check online videos for different surgeons and start comparing them. I really don't want to be subject to such a super sonic extraction procedure .

 

Pma -- how long (hours) did your 6000+ fue procedure wDr Lorenzo take ?

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Personally I'm a bit confused.

 

I was under the impression that having had 3305 grafts from Dr Bhatti, my results were on a par with anything out there.

 

But Dr Feller has convinced me that I must have bumped my head and imagined the whole thing and I actually went and had an FUT and it was so good that my scar is impossible to trace.

 

Or maybe my high midichlorians blood count negated the effects of the 3 evil forces Dr Feller (soon to be revealed evil Sith Lord) goes on and on about.

 

__________________________________________________

Dr Bhatti FUE Oct 2014 3305 grafts

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/178931-my-fue-dr-tejinder-bhatti-oct-2014-a.html

 

I'm sorry you're confused. I hope you didn't hit your head too hard.

 

I don't personally comment on the specific work of any other doctor as that is inappropriate and subjective. I only comment on procedure methods, protocols and instrumentation. So I won't break this self imposed rule for you.

 

I am truly glad that you are happy with your results. I am an HT patient as well and know how that feels. But I stand by my statement that no matter how good or bad an FUE result is, it would have looked better having been done via FUT.

 

Please don't confuse not getting cosmetically significant/pleasing results with complete growth failure. I never made this claim.

 

I only claim that FUE injures grafts in far greater numbers and to a far greater extent than the equivalent FUT and thus has lower chances of getting the patient to that cosmetically pleasing result. Can it be done? Sure ! Can it be done with the same number of grafts? No.

 

The only way to compensate for injured grafts is to use more of them. That means more compared to that needed for the equivalent FUT procedure.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Dr. Alan Feller

[Dr. Alan Feller]

I just saw the video as well and holy smokes , it raised my hair on its ends , no pun intended . I am considering FUE for my next procedure (no scalp laxity left for any more FUT) , but now I probably will need to check online videos for different surgeons and start comparing them. I really don't want to be subject to such a super sonic extraction procedure .

 

Pma -- how long (hours) did your 6000+ fue procedure wDr Lorenzo take ?

 

Fortune,

I felt the same way when I first saw the video. I was literally shocked. And I've seen ALOT of surgery in my years.

 

Just like FUT, not all FUE doctors do the same thing. It is incumbent on every FUE seeker, if that's the surgery you are sure you want to have, to examine the difference between methods and seek out doctors who perform the one you wish to have performed on you optimally.

[lileli]

Fortune,

I felt the same way when I first saw the video. I was literally shocked. And I've seen ALOT of surgery in my years.

 

Just like FUT, not all FUE doctors do the same thing. It is incumbent on every FUE seeker, if that's the surgery you are sure you want to have, to examine the difference between methods and seek out doctors who perform the one you wish to have performed on you optimally.

 

I imagine international conferences are going to be a little awkward now:p

 

But in all seriousness. Dr. Feller you should consider doing and researching FUE mega sessions again. It seems you are very keen for research so having you trying to overcome these three forces would be helpful to the field.

[lileli]

Overly cautious, no.

 

I've seen enough FUE results to KNOW what's going on. Transmitting it to the public seems to be very difficult because it's hard to tell people what they simply don't want to hear.

 

You said Dr. Bhatti gets consistent results. What do you base that on?

 

What would you base the statement that FUE doctors in general get "consistent" results on? Look on this very chat site. Don't you see all the disappointed FUE patients? How about the ones who are worried or concerned? How about the ones who just disappear after a few posts?

 

The "ends justifies the means" argument is never valid because for the most part only the best "ends" are publicized. I see the unpublicized "ends" and it is mostly disappointing. And the reason for it is in that video Dr. Bhatti posted himself.

 

And how many grafts were sacrificed to create the "consistent" result you are referring to? You certainly can't tell from the result itself, or multiple results.

 

You've seen at least one or two other FUE doctors perform FUE in their own videos. Have they done it this way? Most of the clinics who went to the trouble to post their actual surgeries online posted careful and delicate technique. Individual attention to each and every follicle. But I don't think MOST FUE megasession clinics utilize such care. I think most are doing it as Dr. Bhatti showed in his video with attention primarily to SPEED SPEED SPEED! NUMBERS NUMBERS NUMBERS!!

 

Also, lileli, Dr. Bhatti spent every post claiming that his procedure incorporated advanced techniques and instrumentation to protect the grafts from what you think I am being overly cautious about. Did you see anything in his video to prove that claim? Don't you see a red flag here?

 

Most of the bad results posted here come from unknown doctors. I base him getting consistent results based on what patients post here and what clinic puts up. Also, he is recommended here which would indicated a standard of quality.

[Melvin- Admin]

Overly cautious, no.

 

I've seen enough FUE results to KNOW what's going on. Transmitting it to the public seems to be very difficult because it's hard to tell people what they simply don't want to hear.

 

You said Dr. Bhatti gets consistent results. What do you base that on?

 

What would you base the statement that FUE doctors in general get "consistent" results on? Look on this very chat site. Don't you see all the disappointed FUE patients? How about the ones who are worried or concerned? How about the ones who just disappear after a few posts?

 

The "ends justifies the means" argument is never valid because for the most part only the best "ends" are publicized. I see the unpublicized "ends" and it is mostly disappointing. And the reason for it is in that video Dr. Bhatti posted himself.

 

And how many grafts were sacrificed to create the "consistent" result you are referring to? You certainly can't tell from the result itself, or multiple results.

 

You've seen at least one or two other FUE doctors perform FUE in their own videos. Have they done it this way? Most of the clinics who went to the trouble to post their actual surgeries online posted careful and delicate technique. Individual attention to each and every follicle. But I don't think MOST FUE megasession clinics utilize such care. I think most are doing it as Dr. Bhatti showed in his video with attention primarily to SPEED SPEED SPEED! NUMBERS NUMBERS NUMBERS!!

 

Also, lileli, Dr. Bhatti spent every post claiming that his procedure incorporated advanced techniques and instrumentation to protect the grafts from what you think I am being overly cautious about. Did you see anything in his video to prove that claim? Don't you see a red flag here?

 

What are you talking about, most of the guys who got FUE are happy with the results, how many guys who got strip procedures are unhappy about the strip scar expanding and looking grotesque? Let's place a poll for everyone who's gotten an FUE procedure to click if they're happy or unhappy with the result.

 

Bill could you install the poll on this thread, let's stop the opinions and get the facts.

[fortune11]

Fortune,

I felt the same way when I first saw the video. I was literally shocked. And I've seen ALOT of surgery in my years.

 

Just like FUT, not all FUE doctors do the same thing. It is incumbent on every FUE seeker, if that's the surgery you are sure you want to have, to examine the difference between methods and seek out doctors who perform the one you wish to have performed on you optimally.

 

True. I have only had FUT so far and my main focus in those has been surgeon skill with implanting hair and creating the illusion of dense coverage. I could not have asked for a better hairline than than the one that was planned for me by Dr Shapiro.

 

As I research FUE , differences in extraction techniques and methods are equally, if not more important factors, it seems. A lot to think about .

[Dr. Alan Feller]

I imagine international conferences are going to be a little awkward now:p

 

But in all seriousness. Dr. Feller you should consider doing and researching FUE mega sessions again. It seems you are very keen for research so having you trying to overcome these three forces would be helpful to the field.

 

No problem at the conferences. I never worried about what other people thought of me. I'm not a sheep in the crowd.I run my race, they run theirs. So far I'm doing pretty well.

 

I have to admit that I am always drawn back to studying and solving the problems of FUE. But it is so resistant to improvement. Particularly decreasing the three detrimental forces. It seems so doable, but it eludes me at every turn.

 

I would say that my skill level is about as high as you can get performing the procedure manually, but I've reached the ceiling. There is no more skill that I can develop. The only way to ascend from there is through technology, but none has been forthcoming. Even my technologies, which I sold, do not improve the FUE method to the level of FUT. That's why I chide when I read about FUE doctors who claim vaguely that they use advanced technology or techniques. I know they haven't. There is nothing new out there since my tools. Which is why I held Dr. Bhatti's feet so close to the fire. I knew he had no idea what I know about this procedure. And he had no idea what role I had played in the past development of it. Like it or not, admit it or not, he is walking in my footsteps. Brute forcing through procedures is not experience and it is not advancement. It is brutal. Period. The faster you go, the more brutal you must become.

 

The problem is getting at those grafts without having to score around them or pull them out. But how??? So many things have been tried, but none are as good as just taking them out as a strip and then dissecting under the microscope.

 

Just imagine as a mind experiment that you had a Star Trek transporter where you could "beam" them out of the skin. That would work great because there would be none of the three detrimental forces involved. But there is nothing that could do that, nor anything even close.

 

Now imagine you had a magic acid or enzyme that could safely eat away just the skin around the follicle, but not the follicle itself. That wouldn't work because the graft needs SOME dermis around it to protect it from drying out and the mechanical trauma involved in moving it.

 

Another doctor came up with grabbing them from the inside, but the problem is that you have to get inside first. And to do that you have to bore holes in the skin which can cause some serious problems not to mention leave the very scars you are trying to avoid.

 

It's a very big problem to get such a small graft. But figure it out and you are an instant millionaire. No joke.

 

Any ideas??? Anything at all???

Edited August 15, 2015 by Dr. Alan Feller

[Dr. Alan Feller]

[ontop]

Dr Felllerf?

 

You must have far to much time on your hands.....Business slow?

[newbie33]

So this is worth a watch:

 

It's Dr Lorenzo's extraction and implantation technique from a few years ago. From my perspective, he seems about as good as it gets in terms of technique. But I think anyone would be hard pressed to say it negates the three forces Dr Feller talks about.

 

And I add above the caveat 'from a few years ago' because it seems he doesn't do all the extractions himself now, so this won't necessarily be what you get from whoever does - though I'd assume he has provided good training for whoever does it.

[adonix]

So this is worth a watch:

 

It's Dr Lorenzo's extraction and implantation technique from a few years ago. From my perspective, he seems about as good as it gets in terms of technique. But I think anyone would be hard pressed to say it negates the three forces Dr Feller talks about.

 

And I add above the caveat 'from a few years ago' because it seems he doesn't do all the extractions himself now, so this won't necessarily be what you get from whoever does - though I'd assume he has provided good training for whoever does it.

 

Arent Lorenzo's results proof that he negates the three forces on consistent basis?

 

He does most extractions himself even now.

[lileli]

For those attacking dr. Feller,why? The more education the better. I feel much more informed now. I may have locked fue still but at least I have more knowledge. More knowledge will push new improvements.

[mav23100gunther]

Sorry Dr Bhatti, that video is scary. Oohhh nonononono - I wouldn't let you near my head. Huge difference when compared with Dr Feller's or Lorenzo's videos

[TakingThePlunge]

As probably all of you know, my last hair transplant was with Dr. Bhatti. I'm now just shy of 6 months post-op. Given that I'm only about half way to my final result, I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic about the outcome (as we all should) but, if you've followed my monthly updates, you know that things are looking pretty darn good at this stage.

 

I had two strip surgeries prior to my FUE. The second was to address lower than expected yield from the first and also lower the hairline. I like strip. I have a very good quality scar and I don't really care to wear my hair short enough for it to be a factor. However, after two I just couldn't bring myself to entertain a third. Personally, the healing periods were bothersome and my scalp was pretty tight after the second procedure. I didn't want to do scalp stretching exercises and I didn't want to jeopardize my good scar. So FUE for number three it was.

 

I want to emphasize that the following is my personal experience and not meant to convey truths about any particular procedure or doctor. But, based on what I've seen so far at only 6 months post-op, I can say that my hair growth with this last procedure has been faster and the hair that has grown in has been natural and soft in appearance and not at all kinky/wiry as I experienced with my strips. BTW, that wiry hair eventually took on the appearance of my natural hair so even that was not a problem but it's nice not to have to deal with it even temporarily.

 

All that remains now is to determine the yield and we won't know that for many months to come. You'll know when I know because my monthly updates will always be as true and realistic as my limited photography skills will allow.

 

I've always guessed that there must be at least some pressure when performing surgery on a high profile patient like me. My hair loss blog has been viewed more than 62,000 times to date. My social network profile has been viewed almost 50,000 times and my current results thread has over 8,000 views. Whether my results are good or bad, a ton of people are going to know.

 

Now, it's not like any physician or rep that I've ever talked to about a potential procedure has expressed concerns about that and I wouldn't expect them to because the physicians we recommend (Dr. Bhatti included) are confident in their abilities to consistently produce top notch results.

 

I feel like some may question why I'm not more vocal on this thread given its intense popularity and there is a simple answer. The only things that concern me when it comes to hair transplant surgery are the results and the happiness of the patients. Strip vs. FUE, manual vs. powered, implanter pens vs. forceps...I prefer to leave that to the individual physicians to decide what works best in their hands. Let's view the pics, let's talk to the patients and let's evaluate the results as objectively as possible.

 

And if anyone is in the SW Florida area and wants to meet up in NE Cape Coral for coffee or a drink, I'd be happy to make your acquaintance and allow you to examine my melon.

 

If there are any Tim Minchin fans out there, I can't help but replay his final words from "Storm" whenever I'm confronted with an endless debate here on the forum...

 

"And if perchance I have offended

Think but this and all is mended:

We'd as well be 10 minutes back in time,

For all the chance you'll change your mind."

[newbie33]

Adonix,

 

Lorenzo gets good results and they seem consistent (he's actually on my very short-list of docs I am considering for a HT). As I said, his extraction technique and yield appear to be up there with the best I've seen doing FUE. But his technique is basically the same as Feller's and the same for all FUE at its basest form - make a hole around the follicle (torsion), hold/grab it (compression), rip it out (traction). Maybe his technique diminishes these forces. Maybe it diminishes them enough of the time to get good results. But it doesn't entirely negate them.

 

Not to make Feller's point for him. But he's basically saying if you want most grafts out and in a way that's going to give them the best chance to grow, go for strip.

 

For me, who really would prefer not to have strip, the question is: can I find a doctor who can get enough grafts from me (over a lifetime if necessary) and implant them in a way that matches my expectations from a HT i.e. hopefully, one pass at restoring the hairline and filling in elsewhere and hope that, with meds, is enough to see me through till I'm living in a nursing home on the coast and worrying more about sitting in my own p1ss than how my hair looks.

 

So I'm definitely more inclined to get FUE. But I want to go into it with my eyes open. And, yes, I know Dr Feller can sometimes, as Americans say, come over as an a-hole (sorry, old chap), but I am grateful he spends time trying to educate us. Not a single doctor I've spoken to about FUE has mentioned fibrosis, or a lot of other things that thanks to this forum I'm informed enough to ask about.