Have 'ethics' risen or fallen in the last few years?

[Mickey85]

Or have they stayed consistent? I know it's a hard question because there are many Doctors but has the general consensus changed? Are more grafts being extracted/used? Areas packed more densely? More liberal harvesting of donor hair(FUE and strip)? Lower hairlines? For good or bad? What are you opinions? Just thought it would be a cool topic to discuss.

[scar5]

I don't think ethics have changed on the supply side i.e. the doctors and clinics. I define ethics as motive not message. They still push the boundaries, make tactical retreats, gamble, strategize, disappear, reappear, refine their gambit with the same underlying motivations as ever.

 

THe message has obviously changed, as the proliferation of social media and the new technologies have mingled to create a new and vast portal of information and choices for us HT consumers. Nowadays, they are aware that even a Bosley consumer will do a web search and stumble on a site like this. The HT clinics that have survived have done so because they not only adapt, they exploit these changes and all the doubts us mortal HT sods harbor.

 

But a doc is still a doc, a rep a rep.

 

I think the posters have changed. A shill used to be regarded like spam, but now he or she is more legit. The boundary is blurred.

[Spanker]

I think it is a little of both.

 

Clinics like H and W are getting 10k grafts more often than before.

 

I do think that some clinics push the envelope and some stay pretty conservative. They are both available to those that do their research. It is a supply and demand kind of thing.

[Blake Bloxham]

I know your questions were a bit more specific, but I think in general, ethics in hair transplantation have increased greatly in the past decade.

 

Not to "toot my own horn" here, but I really do think online hair restoration communities, the ability to widely spread information (online), and the ability to post results online has brought a new level of transparency and accountability to the field. Whether it was a natural progression or forced evolution, I personally think ethics have increased greatly in the past 5-10 years.

[scar5]

I must concede, as much a I hate to, to a degree of transparency that has a good flow on effect. But is a punter just as likely to regret it today, as much as 30 years ago? Is that a fair question?

 

I honestly think that adapting to the new reality does not mean more honest ethically or even more accountable. I think accountable is relative.

 

I was turned away by a doc in 1983 at 19 for an HT because I was deemed to be too young and because 'i might regret my decision'. (Went back 5 years later)

 

Just think of the 2000 - 2010 period and the ethical 'imperative'

 

1) The laser comb

2) The Neograft machine

3) The trichophytic closure

4) The crusade to save us from the 'poison of FUE' *

5) Revivogen

6) The continuous denial of telegen hair loss in strips

7) The body hair scandal

8) SMP - and it's emerging profile

9) Nape hair use when it is prone to DHT

10) The ongoing trickiness required to participate online honestly

11) The cryptic disclaimers we still sign at the clinic

12) the 'bait - and - switch' marketing tactics still used

 

 

 

 

(and I was plundered by sub-standard FUE work myself)

Edited July 27, 2012 by scar5

[Mickey85]

Wow, you bring up some very good points Scar5. You do seem a bit apprehensive about the hair transplant industry on a whole.

 

Just out of curiosity, what is bad about Revivogen?

[Shampoo]

some ways better....some ways worse

sites like this one & the internet have allowed patients to be way more informed

before our options were pretty limited...thats all changed for the better

But i think in some quarters they have fallen

when i see guys in their twenties posting about getting dense packing

i just shake my head

they really have no idea what the future holds

and in some cases it could get really ugly

even with what is mostly still a full head of hair

they panic at the early, early stages of aging

at 24 they gobble up precious donor hair trying to look 16 again

it's all about today, tomorrow, this year, and next year

but what happens when they are 45 years old & have a dense hairline

and behind that thick hairline is badly balding with not enough donor hair left?

and the doc that did it is long since retired 20 years later?

i suppose there's always the chance cloning will be available by then

lets hope so....but it's a gamble.

 

[Spanker]

Shampoo, do you have a link to the rest of the above case?

[Shampoo]

Shampoo, do you have a link to the rest of the above case?

 

Spanker...I don't really know much about the guy pictured and just used it as a "rough example" of what a possible outcome could be for young guys that burn through all their donor hair trying to look 16 years old again. But here is the link that has some limited info about the guy pictured.

 

http://tinyurl.com/cqgqaov

[Spanker]

I must concede, as much a I hate to, to a degree of transparency that has a good flow on effect. But is a punter just as likely to regret it today, as much as 30 years ago? Is that a fair question?

 

I honestly think that adapting to the new reality does not mean more honest ethically or even more accountable. I think accountable is relative.

 

I was turned away by a doc in 1983 at 19 for an HT because I was deemed to be too young and because 'i might regret my decision'. (Went back 5 years later)

 

Just think of the 2000 - 2010 period and the ethical 'imperative'

 

1) The laser comb

2) The Neograft machine

3) The trichophytic closure

4) The crusade to save us from the 'poison of FUE' *

5) Revivogen

6) The continuous denial of telegen hair loss in strips

7) The body hair scandal

8) SMP - and it's emerging profile

9) Nape hair use when it is prone to DHT

10) The ongoing trickiness required to participate online honestly

11) The cryptic disclaimers we still sign at the clinic

12) the 'bait - and - switch' marketing tactics still used

 

 

 

 

(and I was plundered by sub-standard FUE work myself)

 

Scar,

 

Can you elaborate? I am not sure what your complaint is about many of these listed. I think a lot of the problem is that these techniques are kind of new and still evolving.

 

I feel like FUE is starting to peak and now we need to be looking at the Gho technique, or something similar.

 

What are the bait and switch techniques? Online trickiness?

[aaron1234]

Have "ethics" risen or fallen?

 

Hard to say definitively. But I would say that if for nothing else but for there own sustenance clinics have to do what is in the best of interest of patient now - mainly due to the internet and forums like these. A couple of unhappy clients who are internet savvy can have a devastating impact on any business.

[aim4hair]

I don't think the ethics in this industry have gotten any better. Take a look at the forums online and you will see horror stories of ppl spend their life trying to get back to normal.

I still see doctors accept very young patients without educating them about the consequences.

I still see strip docrots accepting patients with MPB family history without putting them on meds for enough time to determine whether the meds are working for them or not or whether they develop any sides.

I still see doctors attacking their patients if the patient complain about his result.

 

HT is diffrent than any other cosmetic surgery, for example if you go for a nose job and you got a bad result, you can always go back for revision till you get what you want. With HT, it's diffrent since you have limited donor and if you waste them you will most likely end up a prisoner to you bad result and scars where you can't fix the result nor shave your head and move on.

 

Scarless HTs are a must now in my openion where at least patients still have the option to shave and move on if their result end up being disastrous... And this option is becoming reality now since dr. Carlos weseley scarless procedure will be available early 2013 as stated in his site, and also dr. Gho's HST which is scarless is already available now.

[Shampoo]

Scarless HTs are a must now in my openion where at least patients still have the option to shave and move on if their result end up being disastrous...

 

If you choose an elite doctor, the result would very rarely be "disastrous".

Edited July 27, 2012 by Shampoo

[Mercury]

I think it is a plus and a minus. Here's my explanation:

 

The doctors that do hair restoration surgery and are willing to be scrutinized on sites like this have to elevate their game or else they will be caught and everyone will know they suck. So I will put in a kudos for this site that weeds out physicians who dont make the grade. Especially the docs who are on the cutting edge, the Coalition doctors, really elevate the game to a new level.

 

What I am now seeing is that there is new technology that is enabling the average plastic surgeon to extract grafts with these new devices, such as the neograft, these doctors think that by just having some instrument to get their hairs out, that that is all they need to do good hair restoration surgery. I have written abotu this before: I see advertisements all over the place for "Scarless surgery" and they are saying the Neograft can achieve that. That is 100% false and it is false adversiting and very deceitful for the average person who does not know better. I think I will continue my crusade and call out these shady groups.

 

Also, there are groups that are saying, (and I know because I am still looking at redoing my transplant, as I have stated for years - just got to get the time and curage) that this ACell stuff is like holy water and can fix any scar. I talked to a group in L.A. who said they would throw the stuff in for free. Immediately when they said that, I knew they were full of crap and just trying to get a sale.

 

So that is where I feel it is going down because groups are telling the lay person with no hair restoration experience things that will get them to sign up that are totally false. If you weed them out, and look at the docs who are willing to let it hang out and show their stuff and answer, then you at least know who you can see that will ethically help you.

[aim4hair]

If you choose an elite doctor, the result would very rarely be "disastrous".

 

Let's say you go to a topnotch doc for a strip op and he accepted you knowing that you are not on meds and that you have nw6/nw7 in your family (and this case happens alot and i know because i consulted online with reputable doctors who recommended strip for me knowing my high norwood family history and the fact that i won't take propecia), so you end up with great hairline and frontal result, but a couple of years later you start losing more and more native hair and end up being nw6 or nw7 with no enough donor supply. Wouldn't that be disastrous (with unnatural patch of hair in the front area, the rest is sly from the top with a scar at the back) ??

Im not against strip in general, but im against doctors who perform it and recommend it for everybody. Even if the patient says he will start with meds after surgery, i think it's not enough for an ethical doctor to proceed specially knowing the patient family history and the possibility of sides. This is why i said the doctor should put the patient on meds first for enough time to see if it's gonna work with no sides and then proceed which rarely happens.

 

By the way those cases happen all the times and if you take a look at the support groups you will be shocked.

[Shampoo]

By the way those cases happen all the times and if you take a look at the support groups you will be shocked.

 

So you are claiming the elite doctors have disasters "all the time"?

[aim4hair]

I see advertisements all over the place for "Scarless surgery" and they are saying the Neograft can achieve that. That is 100% false and it is false adversiting and very deceitful for the average person who does not know better. I think I will continue my crusade and call out these shady groups..

 

i agree with that, it's sad when you see some "doctors" still market FUE as a scarless procedure which is not true, but thanks to the internet and hair loss forums like this ppl know better now. there is nothing called scarless FUE.

In my openion, the only scarless procedure available now is Gho's HST regardless if you beleive that happen because of re-growth in the donor area (as gho claims) or just splitting hairs (as gho skeptics think).

Hopefully, we'll have dr. Carlos wesley scarless procedure available soon for more options.

 

BTW - having scars on the back of your head might not matter to so many ppl but but it does matter alot for some ppl with high nw levels in the family or those who can't take meds and they know they might end up nw6 or nw7.

[aim4hair]

So you are claiming the elite doctors have disasters "all the time"?

 

I explained the case im talking about very clearly plz go back and read my post again.

However, i'll answer ur question again in case you don't wanna go back and read the post again:

 

So you are claiming the elite doctors have disasters "all the time"?

 

Simple answer is NO i don't claim that, for the following raesons:

1) not everybody will end up being nw6 or nw7.

2) not all patients develop sides on meds or refuse to take propecia. in fact many patients respond just fine and might maintain their native hair just fine.

3) not all doctors accept very young patients.

4) In my first post i said there are doctors doing this and that... I DIDN'T SAY ALL DOCTORS.

5) if you don't beleive me regarding the support group thing, you can take a look at some of the hair support group forums and see for yourself.

[Shampoo]

I explained the case im talking about very clearly plz go back and read my post again

 

I have read your post again and do not see data to support

your claim that "Scarless HTs are a must now in my openion".

 

For who? Certainly not everybody.

 

Ok FUT may not be for everybody ..but what is perfect for everybody?

 

FUE is not for everybody either, and neither are the other alternatives and most of them are not even readily available yet....so we don't know how successful they will be, if there are yet unknown downsides, nor what the costs will be.

 

Support forums have their place, but every procedure or drug I've ever had to have I have read in some support group how it was a "total nightmare" and "DO NOT TAKE IT or DO NOT HAVE THE SURGERY". Support forums rarely attract patients that have great success. I am not dismissing support forums completely but one must take them in proper perspective.

 

Many of the top elite doctors in the world are still very actively doing FUT and I just think it's not supportable to imply they are doing something irresponsible or reckless.

[aim4hair]

I have read your post again and do not see data to support

your claim that "Scarless HTs are a must now in my openion".

 

For who? Certainly not everybody.

 

Ok FUT may not be for everybody ..but what is perfect for everybody?

 

I really don't know why we arguing, you just supported my points. Again i was not talking about all cases and below i quote some stuff that i said in my previous posts:

 

You said: "I have read your post again and do not see data to support

your claim that "Scarless HTs are a must now in my openion".

 

And i said before:

"BTW - having scars on the back of your head might not matter to so many ppl but it does matter alot for some ppl with high nw levels in the family or those who can't take meds and they know they might end up nw6 or nw7"

 

You said: "Ok FUT may not be for everybody ..but what is perfect for everybody?"

 

And i said before: "Im not against strip in general, but im against doctors who perform it and recommend it for everybody"

 

Again i was not talking about all cases, i was only talking about specific cases where patients are young, not on meds (because of sides or fear of sides) and with high norwood history in their family, and still being accepted for FUT by some doctors.

 

In other cases, FUT could work just great and gives amazing results.

[Shampoo]

Ok fair enough but when you stated "Scarless HTs are a must now in my opinion" it could easily be taken as you saying "FUT is no longer a realistic option".

 

I am getting a FUT procedure next month from one of the best hair transplant surgeons in the world and the tiny undetectable scar is for me...not even on my radar as far as issues. I've already had one transplant and even my hairdressers don't know any scar exists. But I understand what you are saying about people that wont be taking the meds and may consider shaving everything off. I suppose we are all on our own journey with different motivations, different genes, different priorities, goals, budgets, ages, and timetables. I wish you well on your journey aim4hair.

[scar5]

Scar,

 

Can you elaborate? I am not sure what your complaint is about many of these listed. I think a lot of the problem is that these techniques are kind of new and still evolving.

 

I feel like FUE is starting to peak and now we need to be looking at the Gho technique, or something similar.

 

What are the bait and switch techniques? Online trickiness?

 

Right, i won't try to elaborate on all of them, but I'll try the ones you specifically mention.

 

(Oh, and to the poster that asked about Revivogen, well, it was deemed to be pretty much a messy piece of uselessless a few years back as far as I recall. Although their shampoo fared better)

 

Bait and switch?

When a clinic advertises a range of attractive procedural techniques and the customer is encouraged to visit the clinic, in good faith, thinking that they will be assessed as per the possibility that each of these techniques is likely to be considered fir them. Once at the clinic, the rep and docs have a well drilled routine to channel the customers expectations into one technique or system for which the clinics operations are streamlined and set up to be profitable for.

 

My favorite has been the Fue to strip switch. The 'bait' to lure the patient is the 'FUE' sign on the door, and 'the switch' is when the patient is told that, 'in his particular case' strip is recommended to maximize this or that. So the reps will suggest that FUE or strip will be considered, and the closer the patient gets to the procedure, the more his expectations are shoehorned into strip.

 

The bait and switch is also used in SMP too. It's like seeing a menu, sitting down in the cafe and then being told there are 'no eggs today' at which point you can't be bothered getting up and finding another restaurant.

 

Trickiness of online

I rarely show pics, respond to messages etc., because it can come back to bite me. i've already been kicked off one forum, HLH, about four years ago in a highly suspicious manner. How one can actively balance the need to be honest and yet pander to the sponsors and reps whilst not cutting themselves off from the help they need for repair is very difficult.

 

With HST, I admit to knowing very little. Perhaps, FUE is peaking. I met a Gho patient once. In 2007. He felt duped. Gho was doing his thing then too. but recent videos are impressive I must say, and it will be interesting how the HT world responds. I heard the great Dr. Rassman saying it is just plain 'ol FUE (whilst reminding us he pioneered FUE! - bless him) but I think it is really an interesting concept but seems risky.

 

The strip industry will continue to do it's thing. Generally deride FUE, tell everyone that is hype, say pencil scars are inconsequential..etc., for as long as they can manage to make money out of doing so. Ironically, FUE maybe obsolete and they'll still be selling strip!! Ludicrous.

 

I read some great posts by NeedhairASAP on the baldtruth blog the other day about Gho, and how RCA continued to sell radios in the 40s when they had TVs in the 30s. Speaking of online trickiness, that site is another mystery. I can't even get on it?

 

Neograft might get better.

Trico closure was a masterful piece of spin by the strip industry. There is a technique that has merits, but it rarely works as advertised IMO. People still believe that the hairs will grow through the scars naturally. Notably, some revisions are done the 'old way'.

Lasercomb ?? Well know knows. Snake oil?

SMP - check it out and try to make sense. I've had it and it has helped me immensely but there are plenty of parts of it that were really rubbish.

[Spanker]

Right, i won't try to elaborate on all of them, but I'll try the ones you specifically mention.

 

(Oh, and to the poster that asked about Revivogen, well, it was deemed to be pretty much a messy piece of uselessless a few years back as far as I recall. Although their shampoo fared better)

 

Bait and switch?

When a clinic advertises a range of attractive procedural techniques and the customer is encouraged to visit the clinic, in good faith, thinking that they will be assessed as per the possibility that each of these techniques is likely to be considered fir them. Once at the clinic, the rep and docs have a well drilled routine to channel the customers expectations into one technique or system for which the clinics operations are streamlined and set up to be profitable for.

 

My favorite has been the Fue to strip switch. The 'bait' to lure the patient is the 'FUE' sign on the door, and 'the switch' is when the patient is told that, 'in his particular case' strip is recommended to maximize this or that. So the reps will suggest that FUE or strip will be considered, and the closer the patient gets to the procedure, the more his expectations are shoehorned into strip.

 

The bait and switch is also used in SMP too. It's like seeing a menu, sitting down in the cafe and then being told there are 'no eggs today' at which point you can't be bothered getting up and finding another restaurant.

 

Trickiness of online

I rarely show pics, respond to messages etc., because it can come back to bite me. i've already been kicked off one forum, HLH, about four years ago in a highly suspicious manner. How one can actively balance the need to be honest and yet pander to the sponsors and reps whilst not cutting themselves off from the help they need for repair is very difficult.

 

With HST, I admit to knowing very little. Perhaps, FUE is peaking. I met a Gho patient once. In 2007. He felt duped. Gho was doing his thing then too. but recent videos are impressive I must say, and it will be interesting how the HT world responds. I heard the great Dr. Rassman saying it is just plain 'ol FUE (whilst reminding us he pioneered FUE! - bless him) but I think it is really an interesting concept but seems risky.

 

The strip industry will continue to do it's thing. Generally deride FUE, tell everyone that is hype, say pencil scars are inconsequential..etc., for as long as they can manage to make money out of doing so. Ironically, FUE maybe obsolete and they'll still be selling strip!! Ludicrous.

 

I read some great posts by NeedhairASAP on the baldtruth blog the other day about Gho, and how RCA continued to sell radios in the 40s when they had TVs in the 30s. Speaking of online trickiness, that site is another mystery. I can't even get on it?

 

Neograft might get better.

Trico closure was a masterful piece of spin by the strip industry. There is a technique that has merits, but it rarely works as advertised IMO. People still believe that the hairs will grow through the scars naturally. Notably, some revisions are done the 'old way'.

Lasercomb ?? Well know knows. Snake oil?

SMP - check it out and try to make sense. I've had it and it has helped me immensely but there are plenty of parts of it that were really rubbish.

 

For me, it came down to a few things. Cost and I truly feel that for the most part, strip yields better. Not sure how you feel about it, it is just my thoughts. Second, price. Third, you can get way more grafts. That is how I made my decision.

[gmonasco]

I read some great posts by NeedhairASAP on the baldtruth blog the other day about Gho, and how RCA continued to sell radios in the 40s when they had TVs in the 30s..

 

And, as I thoroughly documented there, the conspiracy theory about RCA "hiding" its television technology to sell more radios is completely erroneous.

[scar5]

And, as I thoroughly documented there, the conspiracy theory about RCA "hiding" its television technology to sell more radios is completely erroneous.

 

Fair enough, it's an attractive allegory, and I used it carelessly. It doesn't change my reading of the situation viz-a-viz the way information makes it's way into our minds about HTs via the sources that bring it us, and the tools we have to dig it up.

 

And Spanker, I don't disagree with your assessment, cost and yield must be considered. Who has a billion bucks for an HT? I was definitely a victim of my own cost cutting, I must say, and I did that with FUE too.