Laser Hair Therapy debate between Dr. Bauman and Dr. Feller

[Al - Moderator]

I encourage you to take detailed monthly pictures to document your progress. Very few people are convinced by claims to success without visual evidence.

 

I did take pictures early on, but unfortunately they didn't come out very clear. How do you guys get clear detailed pictures? When I took the first set I decided to take pictures every 2 months, so I'll be taking more next week.

[Bill - Seemiller]

BeHappy,

 

Use a high resolution camera (3.0 megapixels or higher). You will have to play around with it. Take many pictures of the same angle before you switch angles. It is easiest if someone else take the picture for you, but with practice, holding the camera over your head and taking a picture does work pretty well

 

Bill

[fisherman]

I am not sure of the claims for hair growth using lasers but, I can tell you that laser therapy is no joke and really does work. My chiro uses a hot laser on my knee and it keeps me out of pain for about a month and then I go back for another treatment...only down side is that its not covered by insurance so it costs me $80 per treatment. My sister also had Plantar Fasscitis cured with 4 treatments... by a chiro no less.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Be Happy,

 

I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of me. But you don't know me and you don't know what drives me.

 

The one thing I can't stand are phonies. I'm not saying YOU are a phoney because I don't know you and have never met you. But I do insist that the entire field of "laser treatment" is bogus.

 

I am not "closed minded", and I am not "open minded". I am "active minded". I question anything new and I put it to the test based on my experience and knowledge. Laser treatments do not pass the test.

 

Anyone who has actually worked with lasers and studied basic physics in college knows that they do not, and cannot work, as advertised.

 

My sound trouncing of Mr. Michaels and his associate was a slam dunk because he is not an educated man, at least not in medicine, physiology, or physics. He is akin to a man purporting to fly an advanced plane, but has no pilots license, no training in aviation, and no formal education in aerodynamics. Yet he is the "inventor" of the laser comb.

 

Folks, all he did was shine a $2 laser pointer on peoples heads and make an inference that it grows a cosmetically signficant amount of hair. And people believed him, just as they believed the magic elixer and tonic salesmen roaming the countrysides in the 19th century.

 

Be Happy, you are only one of many laser users who talks and talks and talks. No different than Mr. Michaels. But where is the evidence? Your pictures weren't clear so you have to wait a few weeks to take new photos? Give us all a break.

 

Fisherman,

Laser is not a substence, it is just a form of energy. Heating your knee with hotpacks, a heating blanket, or just hot water bottles will give you the same effect.

 

If lasers do anything they transfer energy. This energy is then transfered to heat and other wavelengths when it strikes a surface. That's it. Heat is heat. There aren't different kinds, only different sources. And why use a machine costing thousands of dollars when hot packs will do the same thing?

 

Laser treatments are in the same league as magnet therapy, chelation, and a host of other quack remidies. Don't throw your money away folks. Be educated, not taken.

 

Oh, and Be Happy, I do have a cure of hairloss, it's called hair transplantation. Been doing it for years with thousands of happy patients who've managed to use their cameras properly and post their results right on this website.

 

Dr. Feller

[beachair]

Laser hair therapy: the "punch-plug method" of the 2000's.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Beach,

That's being generous.

At least some plugs actually grew cosmetically significant amounts of hair.

 

This quackary must be exposed and the people responsible held to account.

 

When I asked Mr. Micheals what education he had to position himself as an expert in physiology and hair growth his answer was:

 

"I was a laser hair patient in Austrailia in the 1980's".

 

That was it. No joke, that was his complete answer.

 

No medical license, no medical degree, no scientific training, no PhD. Nothing. But he INVENTED the laser comb. Right!

 

If that is not an insult to intelligence of the listening audiance and his "customers" I don't know what is.

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

It will run its course then eventually die, like the rest of the snake oil products. This one is just more expensive

[Al - Moderator]

Originally posted by Dr. Alan Feller:

Be Happy,

I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of me. But you don't know me and you don't know what drives me.

 

I have a low opinion of the hair transplant industry as a whole (which I feel is completely warranted), but I never said I had a low opinion of you personally. Just because I don't agree with you on some issues doesn't mean I have a low opinion of you. In fact in at least one of my posts somewhere on these boards I said I think you do great hair transplants. However I do get a sense that you feel whatever you say or do is right and everyone else is wrong. It's really hard to listen to someone saying something can't work when I see it working.

 

 

I am not "closed minded", and I am not "open minded". I am "active minded". I question anything new and I put it to the test based on my experience and knowledge. Laser treatments do not pass the test.

 

What experience or knowledge? You never used a laser comb, have no desire to meet anyone who used one, tell your patients not to try it, walk out of a lecture discussing it, etc. A person can never gain any knowledge or experience by completely closing their mind to the possibilities of there being anything more to learn or experience than what they already have.

 

 

Be Happy, you are only one of many laser users who talks and talks and talks. No different than Mr. Michaels. But where is the evidence? Your pictures weren't clear so you have to wait a few weeks to take new photos? Give us all a break.

 

Honestly I didn't expect it to work very well. I tried it and said I'll let you guys know what happens. I really didn't think I'd get enough growth to actually see much in pictures. I did try taking pictures at the beginning, but they turned out blurry. I decided it wasn't worth bothering to take another set. I also didn't expect to get slammed so badly from members of this forum simply because it's working on me. The bashing of me was more of a surprise than the growth I'm getting. When I saw I was getting good growth I did take some more pictures and I posted them on these boards as "Before" pictures just to prove that they were taken at that time. I do plan on posting updates soon, but just as with a hair transplant, propecia, or minoxidil it takes months to see a noticeable improvement. Give me some time. I'm not in the business of selling laser combs. I'm just a user of one. I don't think I should be responsible for any company's marketing claims.

 

 

Oh, and Be Happy, I do have a cure of hairloss, it's called hair transplantation.

 

Now THIS is something I find very offensive. You want to talk about how laser comb manufacturers' claims are all lies, but what about the hair transplant field? Let's see... it's a cure for hairloss, no touch method, non surgical, regain a full head of hair, be back to work the next day, painless, etc. I'm sure you think that is all totally truthful marketing, right?

 

Oh and Dr Feller, I had a hair transplant. Actually I had 25 hair transplants. I'm still not cured. I wish I were because then I wouldn't have to use my laser comb. Your hair transplant "cure" caused massive scarring on my head that I can't cover even if I grow my hair 4 inches long... and that was after paying an additional $150 per procedure for a guarantee that not only will I not have scars, but I'd also get double the amount of hair in the donor area as that area was beginning to thin too. But of course hair transplant Drs never lie and are never wrong. It's the laser comb companies that are scamming me. Right.

[Dewayne]

BeHappy:

 

Although I probably wouldn't rent a laser comb for an hour, I do agree with some of your points.

 

While I too think Dr. Feller does great work, I think it's laughable for anyone to suggest an invention has no merit because the inventor doesn't have a certain degree or education. Our history is filled with just such people.

 

Nevertheless, in my mind I don't think a laser will grow hair but I figure those who want to try it certainly have a right.

 

I do think he is objecting to it for the right reasons.

[Captain-Obvious]

Ok, so I am a newbie, but i've had 3 HT and I got mad hair, so maybe I'm a little bias. Don't get me wrong, I realize I have a Honda Accord on my dome, but am I just way in left field to think a laser can reverse genetic coding? Again, I'm no doctor, but anything I can get off eBay to reverse my genetic makeup seems ape-slap crazy. And FYI Dr. Feller didn't do any of my HT's, wouldn't let any yankee touch my hair. (j/k doc.)

[Captain-Obvious]

Be Happy, your last paragraph in your last post sums it up pretty well for me, sorry you had a bad HT. I'd be pissed as all get out too.

[Dewayne]

Originally posted by Captain-Obvious:

Be Happy, your last paragraph in your last post sums it up pretty well for me, sorry you had a bad HT. I'd be pissed as all get out too.

 

I will also say I agree that anytime there is money or humans involved, there will always be cheaters.

 

I had a dentist once who filled a damned tooth every time I went. I sear he told me, at 26, that I had three cavaties. I decided to wait until they started hurting and in eight years I didn't go back to a dentist. Since then, 10 years ago and in another state and three or four different dentists, I've only had one cavity.

 

So, to recap, he told me at 26 I had three. I didn't do anything. Now at 42, I've had one since 26.

 

I'm sure there are unethical ht surgeons, website administrators, ice cream cone salesman, and dentists. But, I think there are exceptions.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Oh, and Be Happy, I do have a cure of hairloss, it's called hair transplantation.

 

Dr. Feller,

 

This sentence is very misleading since hair transplantation is indeed not a cure for hair loss. Patients need to be aware that hair transplant surgery is only a surgical procedure that moves hair from one area to another. The "donor" supply is very limited which is why using hair loss drugs such as Propecia and Rogaine are often used to help stop hair loss.

 

As to laser therapy, well, I suppose this will continue to be debated until more solid evidence comes to the surface.

 

Bill

[edstjames]

I am brand new to this forum (signed up a few moments ago). I'm glad I ran into this forum as I was getting ready to plunk down $2500 for the Erchonia THL-1 laser. I think I will hold off and do more research. This forum is excellent.

 

Thanks

[Cybernaut]

Anyone who believes that the FDA Clearance of HairMax constitutes some kind of official approval, please see my thread on

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/showthread.php?t=154198

 

It also includes links to Dr Rassman's blog where he disputes their hair counts on the before & after pictures, and one actually had less hair. There are comments from physicians and clinical investigators describing just how unusual Lexington's decision is to not make full details of the available to the public and for peer-review, questioning the motive behind this. There are also 2 very lengthy responses from Lexington.

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Doesnt take a rocket scientist to see lasers do Nothing for hairloss. All it takes is a set of eyes

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Dr. Feller,

 

This sentence is very misleading since hair transplantation is indeed not a cure for hair loss.

 

There are certanily MANY misleading statements in hair transplantation, but saying HT is a CURE for baldness ISN'T one of them. It may be BOLD, but it also has the benefit of being TRUE- a claim no laser manufacturer (nor user) can demonstrably match.

 

A hair transplant cures baldness in the same way a filling "cures" a cavity; or stitches "cure" an open wound. That is, one or few procedures will result in a permenant change in the physilogy of the area under discussion without continuous or even periodic attention.

 

Baldness is not a pathological condition, and as such needs no "cure". However, if people are going to elevate the DESIRE for hair to the point where they liken it to a disease state, then hair transplantation is most certainly and unequivocally THE cure.

 

Propecia and Rogain may rightfully be called hair loss "treatments" because their application must be continuous to have efficacy.But atleast they can claim cosmetically signficiant efficacy to a reasonable degree.

 

Magical lasers, vitamins, shampoos, and chanting are bogus "treatments" whose unethical "pushers" must resort to deception and misdirection each and everytime they are called on the carpet to show either efficacy or a mechanism of action.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Dr. Feller,

 

I think we can all agree that balding is a lot different than a cavity.

 

Calling hair transplantation a "cure" for hair loss is inaccurate. There are two dangerous implications one can make from this.

 

1. The first is that hair transplantation stops hair loss from progressing, but this is not true. The reality is, hair transplantation does nothing to stop male pattern baldness and it will continue to progress as dictated by his/her genetics. One can fill in balding areas with transplanted hair but subsequent procedures may be needed as hair loss progresses.

 

2. The second dangerous implication behind such a statement is that hair transplantation can restore a "full head of hair", which is especially untrue on those with high degrees of balding. Quite possibly full "coverage" or an "illusion" of density can be achieved, but, the old days of a thick mane like in high school (or junior high for some) are long gone.

 

In my opinion, hair transplantation is more rightfully called a surgical "treatment" or "procedure", not a "cure".

 

Cheers,

 

Bill

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

That statement about a cure was just tongue in cheek. Im quite sure Dr Feller was just being a little sarcastic. Its not a cure for hairloss but it is for baldness . Plus it also cured me of my low self esteem, and psychosis so it is a cure in some ways.

[16inchscar]

dr feller i have a question for you..how educated are the former hair dressers that now work in the hair transplant industry? these are the ones that install the grafts.

[Al - Moderator]

Originally posted by PLEASE GROW PLEASE:

That statement about a cure was just tongue in cheek. Im quite sure Dr Feller was just being a little sarcastic. Its not a cure for hairloss but it is for baldness . Plus it also cured me of my low self esteem, and psychosis so it is a cure in some ways.

 

Well a HT didn't cure me. I went to a so-called hairloss specialist who said I had "an excessive hairloss disease" and a hair transplant would cure it. I ended up going to 8 different Drs. 3 of them did work on me. 2 turned me down completely. 2 were willing to do very minor work to try to create a part, but both said it's probably not in my best interest to even do that as it would just make the visible scarring worse and probably wasn't a good idea to make a new scar for so little work.

 

I ended up much worse than I started. I would not have any scars on my head if I didn't have a HT. So now I am bald with scars instead of just bald.

 

After going through that I didn't come on here telling every Dr and member here that HTs don't work and they are all lying and full of crap.

 

What I did do is try something that I thought might help me get a little bit of growth or thicken some wispy miniaturized hairs and said I'd let the forum know if it works for me.

 

I try it for a few months and get a bit of growth and simply because I say it's working for me I get Dr Feller saying I'm lying unless I can show HIM proof. Who is he that he needs proof that something works for me!?

 

On top of that he says the cure to my problem is a hair transplant. So tell me, how would you feel?

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Sorry to hear youve been through alot of bs but the difference is there is tons of proof that hair transplant work and hardly any that lasers for hair do anything. Believe me I wish they worked but if they do the % of people they help is almost zero.

Just "be happy" your one of the guys that benefited from it.

[wylie]

The honest to God truth is that there is no demonstrable proof to the claim that laser therapy indeeds stimulate hair growth.

 

It may in some patients help existing hair but to seriously suggest that laser stimulates new growth is not a credible assertion to make, without some definitive photographic proof of regrowth. Any pictures that show "new growth" on the part of those selling a product are probably bogus

 

I dont think its something that necessarily has no benefits. It might even stimulate growth, but the fact is it cannot be proven so such claims are dubious, if not outright inaccurate.

 

To spend any $$$ on such treatment at any medical clinic is truly unethical on the part of whomever would charge for this service.

[MrJobi]

I cannot believe the length of this thread..

 

Don't you think if this product actually worked people from all over the world would be ranting and raving about it ???

 

It is joke and all of the top notch docs agree.

[Bill - Seemiller]

It is joke and all of the top notch docs agree.

 

MrJobi, actually, not all top physicians agree. I have talked to a few Coalition doctors who believe it may have some marginal benefit for fighting hair loss. I think this is one reason why this topic is so hot! The ones whom I've talked to however, do not promote it as if it was a miracle cure, but believe that it's just one more treatment that can be used with the potential of some benefit.

 

As for me, my stance hasn't changed on the issue because I haven't seen enough proof.

 

Bill