Laser Hair Therapy debate between Dr. Bauman and Dr. Feller

[NervousNelly]

Dr. Feller,

 

I know that the laser is not going to effect your business in the slightest. If it has any efficacy at all it likely is just placebo and produces very little.

 

We have seen some remarkable results of using light therapy for pain management and inflammation at our offices. Readily again I will admit that it might be placebo, but people do seem to feel better. I'm not just talking 1 or 2 people either. We've used them hundreds of times successfully. Who knows?

 

The only thing that I do argue with Dr. Feller about is that nothing is happening. I truly believe that there is a transfer of energy and whether it is just the heat emitted or what, it has an effect. Grow hair???--Likely not. That is why so many of us seek out skilled guys like Dr. Feller.

 

 

 

NN

[Bill - Seemiller]

Joe and Dr. Feller - Great rebuttals and I agree with both of you!

 

NN - very true - there is clearly a transfer of energy - but will that transfer regrow hair? As you said - most likely not!

 

Dr. Bauman...

 

You are on!

 

I hope other patient members will share their feedback as well to this valuable discussion.

 

Bill

 

P.S. I will be including this thread in this weeks forum newsletter in order to facilitate further discussion. If Dr. Bauman isn't aware of this thread before then, he will be after I send it out on Sunday.

[nobuzz4me]

Originally posted by NervousNelly:

Dr. Feller,

 

I know that the laser is not going to effect your business in the slightest.

 

 

 

NN,

 

I disagree with this statement, Dr Feller is in fact, losing an opportunity to increase his bottom line by NOT offering this laser "service".

 

It is commendable of him or any other HT surgeon to refuse to offer it IMO.

 

I know you meant his HT side of his business but many clinics will start to see the $$$$$$ of laser therapy and offer it. I personnaly would not go to or recommend any HT surgeon who delves into this practice. It would mean they would be more concerned with their bottom line than the top of my head.

 

Minox and propecia has not put any HT surgeons out of business and I do not think lasers are have them worried either.

[NervousNelly]

NoBuzz,

 

I'm in agreement with you. You're right, I was referring to his HT side of the business. I also commend Dr. Feller for not going after the money if he beleives that the lasers are useless.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Nervous,

Putting more "energy" into the cell would not stimulate it to grow better hair. If anything the opposite would be true. Hair doesn't fall out because the "energy level" of the follicle is falling due to age or "rotting". It falls out because the cells of the follicle were programmed to die. The process of hair loss requires energy to occur. Therefore, putting MORE energy into the system would either do nothing or simply hasten the hair loss effect.

 

And just so we are clear, i don't buy that lasers can "energize" cells!

 

I look forward to Dr. Bauman's input or that of any of the laser therapy industry's representatives. Interesting how none of them has chimmed in by now don't you think?

 

Dr. Feller

[Guest wanthairs]

hang on....

 

dont dentists use a particular type of laser for fast curing white fillings?

 

im sure its not a "dentmax" laser rubbish comb type of thing....

[Al - Moderator]

It's interesting that some people on these forums will spend several hundred dollars a year for propecia, minoxidil, etc and not really be sure how effective those are on their own hair, and even be wondering what the long term effects are and complaining about loss of libido, yet they refuse to spend $129 to try something that has no bad side effects.

 

Here are some links to testamonials and proof:

http://www.amazinglasercomb.com/test1.htm

 

[url=

]

 

[url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=F_K_P7CG5MU]http://youtube.com/watch?v=F_K_P7CG5MU

[Dr. Alan Feller]

BeHappy,

One must prove an "effect" before worrying about side-effects.

 

Your links are testimonials, but they are NOT proof. Not even close. Let's discuss:

 

1. Your first link contained written "tesitmonials" from anonymous authors to what I imagine is a laser product distributor. Hmmm, no way that could have been faked, huh??? How convenient that there is no way to verify the people or the statements. I think it is amazing that there wasn't even one negative letter. Not one. Pretty weak.

 

2. Your second link was a News bit about the man of the hour, Dr. Bauman himself. How do you think the news network came to know about Dr. Bauman and his magical lasers? I'll give you a hint, someone's public relations employee called the News station. Want to bet it wasn't a group of incredibly happy and satisfied laser customers? As usual, no true evidence was given during the "story", just happy happy people making the same old hair jokes and spouting the same old platitudes.

 

3. My favorite was the third link that is supposed represent PROOF of the efficacy of laser light. Who is the very first person to "testify"? Why, it's Matt Leavit! A man who (would you believe it) has a financial interest in "laser therapy"! He is also a man in possesion of a head of hair that would make a lion think about using a laser comb.

 

The next speaker was...an unknown woman in business attire. No before photos of course, just her good word that in some nebulous way she benefitted from the magical laser comb.

 

Next was a cute blonde who said basically the same thing the business chick said, only she sprung on us that she was a Registered Nurse at the end of her segment. In case you're not sure, that was designed to give some sort of medical credibility to laser therapy, and oh...NO before photos-as per usual.

 

The next guy was my absolute favorite: This guy has tried "everything"...his words...and the laser comb was the one that did the trick. Then a "BEFORE" photo is shown which shows really thin hair and then an impressive "AFTER" photo is shown that shows an impressive amount of hair. But don't get your checkbooks out yet ladies and gentlemen, because if you look at the photos closely there is quite a bit of deception involved. The BEFORE photo is a close up of the tip of what's left of his hairline. The AFTER photo is pulled back and shows a much greater area that ALREADY had hair in it! If you look at the tip of his hairline in the after photo you will see that there is no cosmetically significant improvement at all!

 

The last testimonial is from a journalist who was asked by HairMax's director to write an article. Sure, she is unbiased...right!

 

Behappy, can't you do better than this???

 

Perhaps Dr. Bauman can do better?

[MrJobi]

Cheers to Dr Feller

 

I commend his passion for standing up to the false claims of this product.. As I stated before, 90% of the top docs on here share his stance as I do..

 

It just doesn't have the proof to convince me of the effectiviness.

[Guest wanthairs]

hey guys, listen to it if you have not already

 

http://www.hairtransplantadviser.org/blog/category/the-bald-truth-xm152/

[Dr. Alan Feller]

MrJB,

Thanks, but the truth is 90% of the doctors do NOT support our position that laser therapy is a waste. In fact a few even sell it.

[MrJobi]

Ahh yes,

 

But as mentioned "The top docs" in my opinion..

Hey, it's their head and money. I'd rather spend that 500 bucks on some nice clothes or stereo equipment.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

I see this thread has lost traction.

 

Dr. Bauman?

[Guest wanthairs]

i have to add, although not pertinent, that I saw a news sketch on youtube showing several of Dr. bauers hair transplant patients, including one fo the presenters. The other two guys had AWFUL results in my honest opinion. Now, obviously I dont know how long they were into it or how many grafts or any other factors either........but just thought I would add some traction......

[Guest wanthairs]

i spelt his name wrong,......Dr. Bauman, not Dr. Bauer

[Guest wanthairs]

here is the link....

 

[url=

]

[nobuzz4me]

I see Dr Bernstien offers the laser "treatment" but is very careful to say "longterm effectiveness is unknown" on his site.

 

Wonder if he spends any time under the lights? Na, he just probably rings the register$$$$.

 

http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/medical-treatments/revagelaser.php

[Dr. Alan Feller]

I spoke with Dr. Bernstein last week and he told me that he does not find laser therapy to be useful for men and so does not offer it to male patients under any circumstances.

 

For now he believes that there may be some efficacy for women so he is going to try that for the next year and see how it turns out.

[Bill - Seemiller]

I believe Dr. Bernstein to be a quality hair restoration physician.

 

But I'm not sure why anyone would think laser therapy would have effectiveness in one sex and not the other.

 

Perhaps Dr. Bernstein can share with us why he believes this?

 

I suppose I still am waiting for the scientific explanation of how laser therapy works to rejuvenate hair follicles or the derma papilla cells.

 

Even still...I'm waiting to see the physical proof of efficacy. Where are all the compelling and realistic patient before/after pictures?

 

Bill

[Ryan32]

Originally posted by nobuzz4me:

Dr. Feller,

 

Thank you for taking on this issue head on and standing up for the patients. Too many will be ripped off by this scam.

 

Since Dr Bauman even stooped to using a setup caller, it tells you a lot about those that push this "product".

 

Is there anyway to download the program from the archives??

 

 

I posted this in another thread and got a good laugh out of it. Found it on ebay, laser pushers!

 

 

ATTENTION EBAY BUYERS SOME SELLERS HAVE INSTALLED LASERS IN CHEAP AUTO FLASHLIGHTS AND RECHARGEABLE HOUSE FLASHLIGHTS AND SELLING AS HAIR GROWTH DEVICES.THESE SHODDY MADE UNITS ARE REASON SELLERS CHANGE IDENTITY OFTEN. PLEASE BE CERTAIN AND ASK QUESTIONS AS THESE SELLERS ARE A DISERVICE TO THE PHOTO-BIOSTIMULATION INDUSTRY.

 

 

Looks like the scammers are being scammed!! LOL!

 

 

This is just another rip off scam! There is no scientific reports that claim that these products work or provide any sort of hair growth. This is nothing more then pure garbage. Unless you can back up the claims, they are simply a fraud.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Bill,

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

Ryan,

I agree with you completely. What you have to understand is that even IF there were "scientific reports" available to back up the claims it does NOT mean that they are valid or relevant. In truth, laser therapy advocates cite "scientific reports" all the time, because that's all they CAN report. Rather than show obvious proof via photos, Dr. Bauman dove right into several scientific reports that could not be validated or even shown to be relevent. His was a wasted exercise becasue without evidence of the existence of the phenomenon in the first place, there was absolutely no point in citing "scientific" reports.

[Jacob]

Ok...I'm not sure what to think here. On the one hand..a transplant doc trashing something like the laser can indeed be able to capitalize on it. Saying he could make money on them by selling them..if that's the only thing you can think of...

 

I'm also surprised at the lack of confidence in the FDA approval. I feel the same way about minox and propecia..and many other drugs out there.....but still

 

Then there's the issue of what you expect something like a laser device to do. Are you expecting major results? Like the other 2 FDA approved products are supposed to provide?(think sarcasm when reading that last sentence). Or are you wanting something additional to help in this fight. Many do not want to go the surgery route, for various reasons.

 

One of the things about lasers that got my attention was their ability to "increase" SOD. You know..Superoxide Dismutase, as in cu peptides and other SOD mimetics found in Tricomin etc? If true, I'd rather spend a couple/few hundred dollars up front rather than keep spending money on topicals that do the same thing. And I realize that is not the only way each can work.

 

The following is something I posted a long time ago, so some of the links are no longer legit:

 

http://www.laserexchange.co.uk/intro...l_Changes.html

 

 

a) Super Oxide Dismutase

Acute inflammation -> superoxide free radicals

 

S.O.D. + arachidonic acid -> prostaglandin E

 

PGE - changes in nociceptor membrane potentials (increase in firing rate, increased vasodilation)

 

SOD amounts increase significantly after LILT.

 

- pain relief

 

- resolve inflammation

 

(Lombard et al, 1990; Urcuoli et al, 1991)

 

http://www.iama.edu/LaserAcupuncture...cupuncture.htm

 

"In vitro experimental evidence has demonstrated acceleration of collagen synthesis in fibroblast cultures due to acceleration of mRNA transcription rate of the collagen gene. Superoxide dismutase activity is increased (this decreases prostaglandins). This is postulated as one mechanism of pain and oedema reduction. Other effects are: inhibition of procollagen production in human skin keloid fibroblast cultures and stimulation of phagocytosis by macrophages, increased fibroblast proliferation, as well a wide variety of cellular responses."

 

 

http://www.theralase.com/Lasertherapy.htm

 

 

 

"The natural healing of a wound can be divided into 3 phases: the inflammation, the proliferation and the remodeling. LLLT (Low-Level Laser Therapy) assists in all 3 areas by increasing the fibroblasts (the building blocks of collagen, which is predominant in wound healing), speeding up angiogenesis which causes temporary vasodilation (diameter of the blood vessels increases) and by speeding up the reabsorption of a haematoma (swollen area). LLLT is also very useful for burns by stimulating the enzyme superoxide-dismutase, which inhibits the peroxidation of unsaturated fatty acids (burns)."

 

And for the record..even though I posted that a # of years ago...I still have yet to buy or use a laser device.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Jacob,

You obviously haven't read the thread nor listened to the radio broadcast. My argument against laser products went far beyond the fact that I could sell it but don't. In fact, I never made that argument in the first place during the debate. Maybe I should have.

 

You have cited "scientific studies" in the same way that laser advocates do, yet even YOU haven't bothered to buy the thing.

 

Sure, those papers MAY demonstrate SOME interesting mechanisms, but they are a FAR cry from being relevent to the discussion. You must FIRST establish the existence of the phenomenon THEN you can use science to explain it- not the other way around.

 

Laser adovates have not yet proved the existence of the phenomeon of cosmetically signficant hair growth secondary to laser exposure.

 

It is also the laser advocates goal to make a false equivalence between other FDA APPROVED medications and their FDA CLEARED device.

 

Unlike laser combs, there is a demonstrable and legitimate phenomenon occuring when either of the medications are taken. No scientific explanations needed.

 

In the case of minoxidil this phenomenon is not only experienced by those who benefit from it, but those who don't-namely women who experienced hair growth on their chest. There is no better confirmation of the actual existence of a cosmtically signficant hair growth phenomenon than that. LLLT has no such confirmation. All it has are references to microscopic results and obscure un-realated scientific studies.

 

If you want to easily judge when it's time to by a laser product for hair regrowth, just go to any website of the company that sells them and look for consistent and unquestionable before/after photos. When YOU see significant results that don't include deceptive photography, then it's time to buy. Believe me, you have a very long wait ahead of you.

[Jacob]

Not only have I read the thread, I've read it twice. I haven't had the chance to listen to the radio broadcast but I look forward to it.

 

*I* haven't bothered to buy the thing because *I* have never thought I'd be consistent with it because how one has to use it. A new one came out that is cordless etc, and seems more like something I'd use- so I still may get one.

 

What I provided is not irrelevant to the discussion. You just want to say so to try to bury it and move on to something else. I have also read plenty of users in various forums giving the laser devices a thumbs up. Others say they got no results. I've also read the same for the other 2 FDA approved treatments, including a COMBINATION OF THE 2. Reread what I said about using such a thing, especially alone, should not leave you with the expectation that you're going to solve your hairloss problem.

 

Hairmax is "cleared" for safety and EFFECTIVENESS. I'm not even a fan of that company btw.

 

 

 

You know what, doc? I went to your website and if it weren't for the fact that you actually have to do a surgery to get the "results" your customers get, I'd say YOUR pictures would look questionable.

 

 

And btw..there are just hundreds of photos of the Minox and Propecia users available to view at the minoxidil and propecia websites, aren't there.........(I should add....and at all the places that sell such products)

[nobuzz4me]

Originally posted by Jacob:

 

I have also read plenty of users in various forums giving the laser devices a thumbs up.

 

 

Jacob, is this supposed to be complelling evidence????

 

 

You know what, doc? I went to your website and if it weren't for the fact that you actually have to do a surgery to get the "results" your customers get, I'd say YOUR pictures would look questionable.

 

 

Well Jacob, Surgery is the best way to restore your hair where it does not grow. Not sure if taking a shot at Dr. Fellers work will get your argument anywhere. Stick to the point your all over the place here.

 

And btw..there are just hundreds of photos of the Minox and Propecia users available to view at the minoxidil and propecia websites, aren't there.........(I should add....and at all the places that sell such products)

 

Nobody said these were miracle cures, did they? Again, stick to the point, your laser argument is weak at best. Maybe you should go buy one and document with pics your results, good or bad.