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Laser Hair Therapy debate between Dr. Bauman and Dr. Feller


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Here are some before/after of another brand: Sunetics

 

I reread your "request" and later on your comments about pictures from a company can be deceiving. You mentinoed Bosley. I could easily do the same with Dr. Feller, picture by picture. Maybe we should ask for before/after pictures of his patients years down the road. And then were more transplants/surgeries needed? Etc etc. There's no end.

 

The Propecia and Minoxidil ones- who did those? The FDA or the companies? All of them involved in the trials- are all the pictures available, or just the best ones? I told you there's no end icon_razz.gif

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HOLY COW!

I am exhausted just from reading the 4 page thread. The world, and this web site especially, needs people like you. Crazy debate, meeting of the minds if yo will. A lot of interesting points on this thread being made about the laser comb. I just don't buy it, but thats just me. Interesting and nice to see a doc contributing (for whatever reason) to this forum. Its all fun and games until somebody loses an eye...

You only live once...

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Bill,

 

I think, generally speaking, what Jacob is trying to say is that if we are in agreement that finasteride and minoxidil are both unquestionable treatments for hair loss then let's do what you preach and ask why? If the answer is because there's a plethora of proofs and pics, then let's have a reality check and ask for the benefit for those who don't know: where specifically are they?

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Jacob (everyone else read too...those asking for Propecia and Rogaine pictures, your wish is my command below),

 

This message is not an attack so please don't take it personally...

 

Do you really not understand the difference between promotional pictures and patient pictures?

 

I'm concerned for anyone who feels that promotional pictures on a website hold high credibility.

 

If we are going to grasp tightly onto promotional pictures I recommend STRONGLY that you all get on SCALPMED IMMEDIATELY!!!! Their infomercials PROMOTE regrowth of almost a FULL HEAD OF HAIR, even those who are almost completely bald! Of course if one looks carefully there is a small disclaimer in the bottom right hand screen of the TV that says "results not typical".

 

Oddly enough the active ingredient in Scalpmed is just minoxodil anyway...so they can technically get away with saying that there some level of result is possible - BUT, it is way over marketed not to mention it's just overpriced minoxodil.

 

But if you and others want a few patient referenced pictures for Propecia and/or Rogaine, then I'll oblige. These pictures were right at my fingertips I must add...I didn't sweat to find any of these.

 

I must add that there is a LOT more where this came from but I didn't want to spend all night posting pictures icon_smile.gif

 

For those who really want PROOF - make sure you read the threads too and not just the pictures. These are real people reporting real results.

 

1. Propecia - Read well respected member Hairbank's comments at the bottom and then look through his blog. Mind you he also had an HT, so I understand how this Propecia result could be up for debate:

 

http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/656...801002113#7801002113

 

2. Rogaine - Just surfing hairlosstalk.com under success stories I found this link:

 

Link to thread: http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?t=38087

 

Link to pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/DudeInNJ/NewSpudsOfHair

 

3. More Propecia/Rogaine links:

 

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?t=32453

 

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?t=38995

 

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?t=22736

 

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?t=35741

 

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?t=38337

 

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?t=33719

 

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?t=30795

 

Any questions?

 

Where are the patient pictures for laser?

 

Bill

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Thanks for posting those links. They were very helpful.

 

A lot of those links are from Hairlosstalk (HLT). Do you post there as well?

 

What's HTN affiliation with HLT? Seems like the coalition doctors are being advertised there.

 

Are the info on HLT endorsed by HTN as well as by you and Pat? If so, does it concern you that HLT is listing the lasercomb as one of the "proven" treatments here:

 

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/research/men/treatment1men.htm

 

.

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Bill...you didn't provide what I asked for. As I said earlier I have no desire to weed through posts and look for pictures from those using a laser device(which hasn't been around as long as Propecia or Minox, btw). I asked for the TRIALISTS pictures since you guys are so hung up on "FDA approved" and those things being approved. Of course it doesn't matter if the Laser Comb has been approved icon_rolleyes.gif

 

But regarding the ones you did provide.

 

1. Used a # of things.

2. Even others question the pics, as the amount of time seems to indicate the hair just growing longer. But at least he's just using minox.

3. As others are saying there- hair looks the same. Hardly something Dr. Feller and maybe even you were asking for re the laser devices.

4. This one is much better. But again, something else is being used- Nizoral.

5. Didn't even bother to look at the pics..but Nizoral was also used, again..and others are questioning them.

6. There are no pictures.

7. Minoxidil and Nizoral. A whole 2 months. Angles are different, etc(I could use that one on all of them I suppose...like Dr. Feller did)

8. "It looked like your vertex was beginning to thin on Day 1 but that situation seems to have been reversed (although your pics are wet and dry so it's hard to tell for sure)."...."i gotta say your hair looks good in my opinion your tempels are going back"...." just would like to know what is wrong with your hair even before your treatment...." But again..Propecia and Nizoral.

9.Minox and Propecia.

 

Many also took other supplements.

 

Again..where are the pictures of those that were in the trials for the FDA approval, and where are the pictures on the sites that sell such products(I keep repeating the latter since Dr. Feller was whining about the other doc not having them on his site, etc)

 

So in closing...anyone can bring up questions about anyone's pictures, as can be seen in those threads. And btw..I do understand the difference between promotional pictures and patient pictures. Promotional pictures are of "patients"- you need to use your own judgement and common sense as to which are proof of anything, or are even legit. I see nothing wrong with most of the pictures at the Sunetics website or even the Hairmax one. You can quibble over how much regrowth etc there is, but as you can see from your own list- one can do the same thing there.

 

I still can't get over Dr. Fellers post and responses here icon_rolleyes.gif

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Im not at all convinced by lasers. Most doctors who suggest that their patients use lasers also suggest that they use propecia and rogaine. Whos to say the results arnt from the combination of Pro and Ro. Even if lasers did help some, theres just no point it doesnt fight the underlying problem.

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Even if it helps there's no point...say what??

 

Some would say minoxidil doesn't fight the underlying problem.

 

Then there are those, and there are plenty, who use things other than just minoxidil and propecia(besides a laser device, that is).

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rp1979,

 

Yes, Hair Loss Talk has joined in our efforts to help hair loss sufferers. We have a mutual sponsorship if you will. You can find more information on it on the following thread and on our News Site.

 

Regarding their listing of laser treatment, notice under "purpose" it says

 

"Proven to thicken the appearance of hair. Save money on expensive Salon Laser Treatments"

 

Thicken the Appearance of Hair doesn't suggest that it regrows hair like Propecia and Minoxodil.

 

But straight up, I don't really like the fact that it's listed under proven treatments.

 

Jacob,

 

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you advocating laser therapy works or not? Or are you just playing devil's advocate?

 

You asked for photos of proof of efficacy of Propecia and Minoxodil, I provided a number of patient photos that only scratch the surface of all the evidence out there. If you want to dig up the trialist pictures, I'm sure they are out there...but it's on you to find them.

 

Not all of the pictures I provided show significant cosmetic improvement...but you have to admit, some of them obviously show a difference.

 

But this thread is about laser therapy and whether it works.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

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Actually I think you do know what point I'm trying to make. You can't tell me you'll spend time digging up those pictures/threads but can't find and post what should be very easy to get ahold of- the trialist photo's from the FDA approval trials of Propecia and Minoxidil.

 

Only one thread/pic set was of somebody using just one of those products. I guess I can just post threads of those who use a laser device along with other things, including Propecia and Minoxidil.

 

I'd also like to refer you back to the points I've made regarding the laser devices and before/after pictures that are on those sites.

 

 

Yes I am advocating laser therapy CAN work. Check out the thread over at Hair Loss Help where studies etc are being posted, even ones where the use of lasers for the REMOVAL of hair have ended up causing regrowth etc. I'll post them here eventually I suppose.

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With all respect to you Bill....how do we know that those guys in those photos aren't using other treatments that they haven't listed, maybe even LLLT????

 

The fact is Second Hand photo evidence doesn't mean squat. I don't know those guys. You expect me to take the word of 'Some Guy' on an Internet chat board as fact??? How can you be sure they are telling the truth? Gosh, I hope you don't make your investment decisions based on Second hand info you read on the Yahoo Stock Boards!

 

What's funny is that those photos, for example, if I were to say they are all from Low Level Laser Therapy patients, Dr. Feller and all the other non-believers would find a way to DEBUNK each and every one. LOL..Oh, this guy just grew his hair longer...Oh, this guy had towel dried hair in his before photo...Oh, this guys after photo is a little darker, etc etc....LOL!!!

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look jacob I dont know what your trying to complain about. You asked Bill for example pictures, you got them, now your criticizing them .Why don't you just find them yourself.

 

There are a number of reasons why I am skeptical of lasers. The have been used at salons for a long time and just suddenly people notice that they might benefit hair. This would have been pointed about along time ago had they made that big of a difference. Im not interested in thickeners, im interested in re growing and maintaining. Maybe im wrong but there's no proof yet that disproves me.

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All the proof I need is growing out of the top of my head.

 

You want proof that it works or not, buy one or get off the sofa and build one yourself and try it.

 

You can read post after post after post from guys like me saying it Works, or guys like Dr. Feller saying it's Hogwash. You won't really know until you try it yourself.

 

INFACT: This is what I will do. I have an older prototype comb that I made (never been used). It contains 9, 650nm 5 mw lasers. I'll give it away (FREE) to any one person who is a skeptic and wants to try it. All you have to pay is the postage to get it to you. How does that sound?

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Hey giants.

 

My treatment program is:

 

1. Dutas (Generic Avodart) 0.5mg per day.

2. Dr. Lee's minoxidil 12.5% once a day in the evenings (I mix in my own azelaic acid)

3. Every morning, I add 1 teapsoon of pure caffeine to 2 tablespoon of shampoo and leave it on for about 15 minutes.

 

4. Low level laser therapy every other day.

 

5. Workout like a mad man at the gym

 

6. Eat healthy / keep the stress level low

 

Now, ofcourse before I started low level laser therapy, i tried to cut back on the amount of minoxidil and Dutas I was taking, but I started shedding after about 2 months. So I got back on it. Then I added the laser comb I built and again I cut back on the other things and I haven't had any shed. And that was about 3 yrs ago.

 

 

Infact my hair looks great since adding the laser, more vibrant, healthy looking and the laser seems to help with gray hair....

 

Now, I'm a stranger to you so as I always say, you need to try it for yourself and come to your own conclusions.

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Yoda--- not joining this debate, but it isn't "guys like Feller" it's DR Feller, which is a large difference in a debate like this.

 

In any case, I am glad that your looking and feeling great.

 

Take Care,

J

Go Cubs!

 

6721 transplanted grafts

13,906 hairs

Performed by Dr. Ron Shapiro

 

Dr. Ron Shapiro and Dr. Paul Shapiro are members of the Coalition of Independent Hair Restoration Physicians.

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Jacob,

 

I only posted those pictures because you asked for them (though I realize now you were looking for FDA trial pictures).

 

Ok, so you are advocating laser therapy works...that's fine. Now that I took some time to post for you - take some time to post links with the photos of LLLT for us.

 

Yoda,

 

I have an older prototype comb that I made (never been used).

 

 

So in other words, you have a financial interest in laser therapy which is why you are an advocate of it?

 

Ok...besides that...

 

Let me ask you this...how do you evaluate whether a product works or not?

 

For me, there are three criteria I use to evaluate a product You can see my detailed blog called: How to Evaluate Hair Loss Products which explains my method.

 

But yes, I do use public evidence (patient posted photos) as one criteria in order to determine if a product has any credibility.

 

 

Yoda, you said:

 

how do we know that those guys in those photos aren't using other treatments that they haven't listed, maybe even LLLT????

 

 

This basically implies that the photos have credibility but are saying their growth may be due to something else like LLLT.

 

Then you said:

 

My treatment program is:

 

1. Dutas (Generic Avodart) 0.5mg per day.

2. Dr. Lee's minoxidil 12.5% once a day in the evenings (I mix in my own azelaic acid)

3. Every morning, I add 1 teapsoon of pure caffeine to 2 tablespoon of shampoo and leave it on for about 15 minutes.

4. Low level laser therapy every other day.

5. Workout like a mad man at the gym

6. Eat healthy / keep the stress level low

 

 

Looks like a pretty decent regime!

 

But then you said...

 

All the proof I need is growing out of the top of my head.

 

 

You stated this to giants trying to prove laser therapy works!

 

You have contradicted yourself!

 

Look at your entire regime...you have included Dudasteride (stronger than finasteride) and minoxodil into your regime. How can you say that LLLT is working? You do 5 other things to treat your hair loss.

 

Personally I think working out like a madman is what is helping you regrow your hair icon_biggrin.gif

 

Bill

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I will add one more thing...

 

This debate isn't about Propecia or Rogaine.

 

Jacob and Yoda...

 

Are either of you going to seriously sit here and tell me that they are not potentially effective means to fight hair loss?

 

If you really believe this you have lost all credibility and there is no reason to debate with either of you.

 

There is already TONS of proof out there that Propecia and Rogaine have some level of efficacy to fight against hair loss. The pictures I posted above wasn't even scratching the surface. But if I posted 1000 articles, links, pictures etc nobody would read them.

 

But this debate is whether laser therapy works or not.

 

LLLT is a relatively new FDA approved "treatment" even though LLLT has been around for a LONG time! I have not found any credible information to date suggesting that LLLT really works.

 

All I'm really asking readers to think about is...

 

If there is no credible proof out there - then there is no reason to believe it works.

 

For those who are using LLLT as a treatment for hair loss - I encourage you to document your progress with pictures (similar to the pictures I posted above)

 

However...those who want to try the lasercomb if you really want to...by all means...go for it! Maybe someone will be able to post patient proof that way icon_biggrin.gif

 

Bill

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did you read my post thoroughly....

 

<<< Now, ofcourse before I started low level laser therapy, i tried to cut back on the amount of minoxidil and Dutas I was taking, but I started shedding after about 2 months. So I got back on it. Then I added the laser comb I built and again I cut back on the other things and I haven't had any shed. And that was about 3 yrs ago. >>>

 

After being on laser therapy, the quality of my hair improved greatly, more vibrant, thicker, even more less fall out than when i was on the other parts of my treatment alone and it even allowed me to cut back from 1.0mg of Dutas a day to only 0.5 and twice daily application of minoxidil to only once

 

I tried that before and got a massive shed. Not only haven't I shed this time, my hair is actually becoming thicker and fuller..... before laser therapy i was only maintaining what i had...now, I've cut my drug intake in half, added LLLT and i'm gaining hair!

 

NOW how can that be if i have basically cut the amount of drugs I was using in half?????

 

It's LLLT therapy...it works for me at least...

 

I'm a kindergarten teacher in japan....I like to tinker with electronics..now tell me how the heck do i have a financial interest in giving away a laser comb that I made for FREE???

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Then tell me...why have I started growing 'MORE HAIR' since I cut the amount of Meds I take in half and replaced it with LLLT????

 

Tell me....why did I have a massive shed when I cut my meds in half but I didn't have a massive shed when I cut my meds in half and supplemented them with LLLT?

 

Placebo effect right??? LMAO!

 

Not only is LLLT working for me, it has allowed me to save about 100BUCKS on meds a month....

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Thanks giants!

 

My offer still stands for any skeptic who wants a FREE laser Comb, which is more powerful than the Hairmax..Absolutely NO STRINGS ATTACHED...Bill...giants...Dr. Feller..any takers??????

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Originally posted by YODA:

I'm a kindergarten teacher in japan....I like to tinker with electronics..now tell me how the heck do i have a financial interest in giving away a laser comb that I made for FREE???

 

That's cool. Are you an English teacher there? How do the kids understand you?!

 

Funny thing that you bring up Japan... I'm actually going to be stationed there (at Fukuoka, Japan) for 6 months and I'm worried about how I'm going to get all my hair loss supplies such as finasteride, rogaine, nizoral etc.. I guess I can bring some along but can you buy them in the stores there? I mean how are you getting your Dr. Lee's minox and Dutas? Are they being shipped from the US?

 

Oh just curious, I love tinkering with stuff too being an engineer... How did you learn how to build a lasercomb? How much did all the parts cost? Is there a site that you can go to that will teach you? I might rig one up just for the fun of it...

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HEY RP1979.

 

I get all my drugs through the mail. No worries.

 

Japan Post is probably the best postal service in the world.

 

I have been here 14 yrs (in Osaka) and I have never missed a parcel.

 

Yes I am teaching English to the kids..very fun!

 

Give me your mail addres and I'll tell you where i get all my drugs from!

 

I don't think Bill likes us posting links to websites that get financial gain.

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