any disgruntled hasson and wong patients !!

[Ventuoguy]

stvobadia,

 

I don't think anyone here on the forum would "forward" your posts to H and W. Even if they did, the posts don't contain your real name so there would be no real point in doing that. However, you should bear in mind that Jotronic is member here and also an employee of H and W, and more than likely has already viewed your posts. It's not a big deal really. You haven't done anything wrong by speaking your mind, and it seems like there was just a little bit of difference in how your grafts were distributed. Bill is correct in that it would be helpful to see the immediate postop photos. I think H and W know from experience that a better cosmetic result is obtained overall by reinforcing the hairline, central forelock, and midscalp, as opposed to spreading the grafts out too far. H and W enjoy a wonderful, and highly deserved, reputation on the forum based on their work. There was another patient who was unhappy with his results from H and W, and they stood by him and reinforced his hair transplant. That was a big long thread on here back in 2009 or so. Though I know that they will do the best they can for you, I am not sure if they could ever guarantee "no bald spots" given your degree of hairloss. Regarding the 12 and 18 month timeframes, I'm not sure what the difficulty is, insomuch that time marches on irrespective and you will continue to see improvements up to the 18 month mark, if improvements are there to be had. However, rest assured that you did actually choose some of the best of the best for your HT.

[Bill - Seemiller]

stvobadia,

 

This community believes in providing a fair and safe environment on our public forum for both patients and physicians. Thus, just as patients are encouraged to share their genuine experiences and concerns on our public discussion forum, physicians and clinics are sometimes invited to weigh in on any topics that concern them. I recommend becoming familiar with our fair forum policies by visiting the discussion topic "Maintaining a Fair and Safe Environment on our Forum for Patient and Physicians". I also encourage you to read the terms of service you agreed to when you signed up.

 

Drs. Hasson and Wong are well respected physicians and recommended by this community. Thus, we have a right to make them aware of your concerns and invite them to respond to your comments.

 

Again, I encourage you to post pictures that showcase your concerns in order for the members of this community to provide you with the best advice and input.

 

Best Regards,

 

Bill

[NEWHAIRPLEASE]

stvobadia,

Do you know how many grafts were placed in the crown? If not, you should be able to find out...also, I would love to see some before and after photos...6000 grafts is a lot...even for a N-6...Ive seen some huge improvements on here at that level...

[KiwiGuy500]

Have their been negative H & W comments or results? Of course. As someone said no one bats 1000 - (yet H & W bat very 900's I think). Lets be straight, there have been a small handful of guys on here with issues, and this is known. But this is from many 1000's of surgeries. I steadfastly believe some of those patients would have been unhappy no matter who did them and what they got. No one has every gone to another surgeon that I am aware of for a H & W repair because they were a mess. Its usually that H & W is where many go when some surgeon made us a mess, such as my own case - on that long flight to Vancouver too see if someone can give you your life back. H & W have been leaders for so long so they ALWAYS come under the most scrutiny.

 

Also our physiological / anatomical characteristics play a vital role in outcomes. And obviously if have read widely, you know H & W take on an array of cases other surgeons turn away, and give these guys that aforementioned new life. I have read a few times on this forum of H & W 'under promising and over delivering'. To the guys hassling stvobadia, seriously are you guys for real?? He gave a really valid viewpoint, he's working with H & W, he is a really realistic guy with his outlook not a moron complaining he's a N6!! Why don't you read what he wrote properly and percieve the manner in which it was intended?

 

Here is a problem with all patient / surgeon liaisons, communications do break down. Patients views can, at times, not be given enough standing and doctors will at times, unknowingly, slightly marginalize patient wishes - and this is from even the best surgeons. Sometimes this could be construed as pig headed by surgeons, but at times its for patients own good, its such a fine fine line they gotta walk. Surgeons are never dealing with perfect scenarios and perhaps more patients should be rejected by surgeons who can say.

 

Stvobadia, 1 year is the benchmark, at 12 months, in the majority of cases you get 90%+ of what you are gonna get, but if Doctors told everyone 18 months it would be too hard for many patients to take. Eighteen months in my reading has never been touted as the benchmark but rather a likely 'final' result, and some say it can take 2 years. Yes we know thickening occurs after 12 months but that does not make another time the bench mark. We are talking heuristic understanding here but not absolutes. I had a just a light pass on my crown in 2010, took 16 months to grow in. At 12 months I hadn't seen much, at 16 months I could see it, but I don't think that makes 16 months the bench mark either.

 

Stvobadia, obviously perhaps you don't know exactly how much donor you have left bit another 3000 grafts would probably make you look like a different guy. Forgetting artistry for a moment, there are always critical mathematical points with hair restoration where results go from looking not too bad to amazing.

 

Lastly, with all these 'top clinics' from time to time we see patients unhappy with results. The hair transplantation industry is like just about every other, so we learn to judge surgeons not just by when things go well, but when they go badly - and how that company reacts to the situation. All the 'top' clinics are the BEST responders to such situations. It's not a case of sweeping under the carpet, but coming up with the most viable solution.

Edited March 9, 2012 by KiwiGuy500

[England]

Something doesn't feel right about stvobadia posting a barely critical comment in response to the OP, all the while clarifying that the procedure was excellent and H&W have been excellent with him, simply voicing some mild concerns and mainly opening up a discussion about yield times, to then have his posts forwarded to the doctors who take care of him as if they are being portrayed in such a negative way that necessitates a response. He already made it clear that he's voiced his concerns with them and he would definitely recommend them.

 

I'm all for doctors being given the opportunity to respond but there's a big difference between that and seeking them out when any little comment is made, particularly when it villainizes the patient in question and may cause bad feelings between them. You may say it's his own fault for posting a slightly negative comment but seriously, do we want patients to hide their feelings through fear of jeopardising their doctor/patient relationship? In this case, his not particularly insulting or negative comments will be seen in a much harsher light due to the fact the clinic has been contacted, all blown completely out of proportion, and that is most definitely not his fault.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, sometimes the protectionism on this forum extends a little bit too much towards the doctors.

Edited March 9, 2012 by England

[Bill - Seemiller]

England,

 

Clinics have a right to know when one of their patients makes their concerns public and are sometimes notified and invited to weigh in. In this case, Dave felt it was appropriate to notify the clinic and invite them to share their side of the story. Notifying them simply provides them with the information they need to decide whether or not commenting is necessary.

 

In my opinion, nobody is blowing anything out of proportion, at least not yet. In my opinion, everyone has been very respectful and has offered this patient constructive feedback.

 

Thanks anyway for your concern,

 

Bill

[orlhair1]

England,

 

Clinics have a right to know when one of their patients makes their concerns public and are sometimes notified and invited to weigh in. In this case, Dave felt it was appropriate to notify the clinic and invite them to share their side of the story. Notifying them simply provides them with the information they need to decide whether or not commenting is necessary.

 

In my opinion, nobody is blowing anything out of proportion, at least not yet. In my opinion, everyone has been very respectful and has offered this patient constructive feedback.

 

Thanks anyway for your concern,

 

Bill

 

I agree Bill. H&W are regulars on this forum and they have a right to know about threads like this so they can respond if they choose to do so. I don't think that is anything negative about the comments by everyone, which have all been respectful.

[Davis91]

May I please ask a distantly related question concerning a H&W patient? Is the fellow in this H&W repair section link an NW6? (I just admire the tactical placement of a small number of grafts, the final result can stand on its own, etc.)

 

Hair Transplant Photos Hair Transplant Gallery - Hasson & Wong. Sessions: 1. Grafts: 3711

[KiwiGuy500]

Agreed England, I don't believe stvobadia did anything wrong at all. I think the moderators run the forum quite well because if they don't take such an approach we all know forums get destroyed because people can never behave. There's always going to be commercial lines drawn first. We still have a voice and patients and prospective ones get the opportunity to share what's happening in the world of hair restoration. There's definitely been some harsh criticism of coalition doctors and if there hadn't, this forum and website would have zero credibility.

[bonkerstonker]

Hello Bill. First I would like to make it clear that I am not unhappy with my hair transplant in general and this certainly not a knock on Hasson and Wong who have been receptive, considerate, and responsive towards my concerns. This is about the frustration that I have been through because of some lack of information regarding the timeline, which would have eased my concerns from the start. I decided to write on this forum mainly because I wanted feedback from others who might shed some light on the 12 month mark versus the 18 month mark, from their own personal experiences.

 

My intention is not to spew bad remarks towards H & W and honestly, I don't appreciate having my concerns on a blog forwarded to H & W without my go ahead. I have already been in touch with them and they are aware of my concerns. I will wait until the 18 month mark to make my final judgement and then decide where to go from there.

 

IMO you've come on here trying to cause hasson and wong problems so you can gain leverage for more free work later if things dont mature like you want it to, i think this simply because you've selected this old thread created 4 years ago to try summon up support from anyone in the past that has a negative opinion and so you can vent without making your own thread which would reveal your tactics more, if you were interested in growth times you would of used a post relating to 18 months full growth times.

 

At the end of the day there is the odd patient that gains good maturing after a year but it's quite rare in comparison to the majority that's why hasson and wong and most of clinics say your final result will be a year simply because virtually all the growth is through and the maturing after doesn't make that much of a difference for most unless they grow their hair really long which obviously covers twice as much ground.

 

Also don't come on pretending to be all nice but sticking the sly knife into the clinic that's lame just be real and put some pictures up if you're gonna moan so you can get a honest opinion from everyone, you've been asked a few times for pictures and we've not seen one. If you're a completely bald nw6 putting 6000 grafts in isn't gonna make much difference anyway so you'll need another 5000 grafts for a half decent result.

Edited March 10, 2012 by bonkerstonker

[stvobadia]

imo you've come on here trying to cause hasson and wong problems so you can gain leverage for more free work simply because you selected this old thread created 4 years ago to try summon up support from anyone in the past that has a negative opinion if you were interested in growth times you would of used a post relating to 18 month full growth times. At the end of the day there is the odd patient that gains good maturing after a year but it's quite rate in comparison to the majority that's why hasson and wong and most of clinics say your final result will be a year simply because the maturing after doesn't make much of a difference for most unless they grow their hair really gone which obviously covers twice as much ground.

 

completely absurd!!!!!!!!

[Shampoo]

To the guys hassling stvobadia, seriously are you guys for real?? He gave a really valid viewpoint, he's working with H & W, he is a really realistic guy with his outlook not a moron complaining he's a N6!! Why don't you read what he wrote properly and percieve the manner in which it was intended?

 

I am probably going to Hasson & Wong for my transplant, so I want to make it clear I am a fan of Hasson & Wong, but I have to agree with Kiwi. It seems from the minute stvobadia posted his thoughts he was "under attack". stvobadia did not start this thread, he responded to a thread addressed to Hasson & Wong patients. As a potential Hasson & Wong patient I want to hear honest opinions pro/con. I agree with Bill that before and after pics would be very helpful in allowing others to make a better judgement about the results.

[bonkerstonker]

I am probably going to Hasson & Wong for my transplant, so I want to make it clear I am a fan of Hasson & Wong, but I have to agree with Kiwi. It seems from the minute stvobadia posted his thoughts he was "under attack". stvobadia did not start this thread, he responded to a thread addressed to Hasson & Wong patients. As a potential Hasson & Wong patient I want to hear honest opinions pro/con. I agree with Bill that before and after pics would be very helpful in allowing others to make a better judgement about the results.

 

Don't you get it? He didn't respond to a post he dug up a post that's 4 years old he was looking for trouble in a sly way. The fact he had to go back four years to find anything remotely negative just shows how good hasson and wong are.

Edited March 10, 2012 by bonkerstonker

[stvobadia]

Bonkstoker! You are so way way off the mark! I was expressing my concerns about the timeline and distribution of grafts as I discussed with Hasson and Wong. Read the post slowly and clearly and do not react so impulsively!! If you notice I praised Hasson and Wong for their work and professionalism and that I was working with them on resolving my issues. Instead I get insulting comments in return, accusations of trying to manipulate the issue to receive free work!! Really!! Come on now!!

[Shampoo]

Don't you get it? He didn't respond to a post he dug up a post that's 4 years old he was looking for trouble in a sly way. The fact he had to go back four years to find anything remotely negative just shows how good hasson and wong are.

 

I have pretty much arrived at that same conclusion bonker as far as Hasson and Wong being one of the very best, but as a patient I do like to hear pro/con opinions. And this guy wasnt even very negative anyway. Although I did not notice how old the original post was..so thank you for that clarification. But dont you agree that no clinic is perfect? So why the hostility in hearing his thoughts? Does he not have the right to voice his opinion about what he views as a minor problem? I am here to learn and hear feedback both pro/con. Whats learned from "oh everything is great and perfect?". stvobadia please provide before/after pics as Bill has suggested.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Shampoo

[KiwiGuy500]

Cheers for support Shampoo

 

Bonker, mate we're probably in the same cheer squad, but seems like the consensus is it stvobadia was well within acceptable limits, and I wish him all the best in finding his solution. H & W are good at making people happy no matter what the circumstances, we know that, and that was one of my main points. H & W don't leave patients high & dry - there is a process at the clinic and communication is a key component at their practice. And, if I may generalize, the entire coalition has a good name on such principals. If I sound like a cheer squad for the whole damn lot of them, its because every day, someone, somewhere has something done to them by a 3rd rate surgeon that is, if not horrific, then not very good either. Information, debate, the coalition, patient groups, etc are the way we got to where we are now. It's an attempt to get away from the grip of 'pure marketers' with terrible product behind it.

 

The initial posters question been answered thoroughly, done through healthy debate, which we are allowed. Personally I appreciate a lot of the coalition doctors just based on the viewpoints of members who's opinions I value and trust, yours included bonk.

 

To state my point again, a forum is a forum, and the fact that people express sentiments generally positive, but sometimes not, is testimony that this forum is not 'One Way Marketing' and has credibility for allowing it. When things go outside the bounds of good taste or just pure nastiness by some, (for whatever motivation), the moderators step in very quickly.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Bonker,

 

I appreciate you looking out for this community. But I don't think stvobadia had bad intentions. Rather, I believe he intended only on sharing his genuine concerns.

 

My only problem with stvobadia is that he ducked his tail feathers and ran as soon as he heard Hasson and Wong were invited to post a reply to his concerns. Thus, instead of posting photos and hashing out his concerns, he requested that I disable his account. I did suggest he stick to his posts but he said he wanted nothing further to do with this forum. It's unfortunate but this is his decision.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[Bill - Seemiller]

Guys,

 

I just had a pleasant conversation with stvobadia in private and I now understand where he's coming from a little bit more. While stvobadia takes full responsibility for his posts and failing to understand the nature of public discussion forums, he told me that he'd rather continue working with Hasson and Wong in private than discuss his concerns with them online.

 

Stvobadia felt that hosting a public discussion which includes Hasson and Wong may jeopardize his relationship with them. In my experience, most clinics would rather work with their patients privately to resolve any concerns however, this community supports the patient's rights to share their genuine concerns online. And since leading clinics recommended by this community including Hasson and Wong respect and agree to operate in a transparent environment, I feel confident that hosting a public discussion wouldn't affect how Hasson and Wong work to resolve stvobadia's concerns.

 

Nonetheless, I respect stvobadia's decision to continue working with Hasson and Wong offline rather than host a full blown public discussion of his experience, results and concerns. Stvobadia is welcome back anytime to update this topic if he chooses. Nonetheless, I wish stvobadia the best in resolving his concerns.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[TakingThePlunge]

I feel I should comment here also since my actions are being called into question. No one accused stvobadia of wrongdoing or misconduct. I personally don't believe that he had any ulterior motives for posting his concerns. However, in my opinion, it probably wasn't the best decision to resurrect the thread that he did rather than simply starting his own. That can be chalked up to inexperience.

 

Another misstep (considering that he later professed a desire to keep his story a secret from H&W) is sharing his story in a public forum where one of the most prolific posters is, in fact, a H&W representative. Everyone knows that Jotronic would have stumbled across the thread eventually. Frankly, it's best for all concerned parties if that happens before a discussion has an opportunity to become blown out of proportion.

 

In fact, when I had concerns regarding my own first hair transplant, although I remained in close contact with my doctor, I was pleased to know that Bill had also contacted Dr. Alexander on my behalf. I see that process as one of the most valuable roles of a community such as this.

 

I have also had members contact me privately with problems and request that their concerns are kept confidential. In those instances, I honor that request. But, I will always encourage patients with concerns to work them out with the clinic themselves or allow me, Blake or Bill to contact the clinic on their behalf. Ultimately, we all want the same thing. We want a satisfied patient with a successful outcome.

 

No one divulged private information in this case nor do we ever.

[Jotronic]

Thank you to David for letting me know about this thread but I saw the revival of this thread about 36 hours ago when I was about to board the first plane out of three that were to take Dr. Hasson, my colleague Doug Kline, and myself to Europe for consultations.

 

First and foremost I can confirm that we are indeed working with this patient to make sure that he is happy with his final result. I have not been personally dealing with him but from what I know this really is not a big deal. He has stated that for the most part he is happy with his procedure. While I certainly appreciate the support and kind recognition of our contributions to the field of hair restoration and our record overall from forum members I do not believe that anything truly untoward is taking place here.

 

I will take this opportunity to address something that was implied on this thread and stated outright on another. It was mentioned that some believe final results are achieved at 18 months and not 12 months. Fact is, neither is correct and the real answer is not only somewhere in between but sometimes a bit outside as well. However, when we tell patients that the result will be seen in 12 months it is because the final result is expected to be seen in 12 months. This means that the VISIBLE final result is expected and does not include the subtle changes that take place 4 months or tens months afterward. In my honest opinion I believe it could be argued that there is NO final result because our hair is in a constant state of flux by nature but I stand by our position that, for most, the final result, the part that matters for 99% of all patients, is reached by 12 months post op.

 

Keeping the above in mind I need to make this CRYSTAL clear. It was suggested, actually stated cleary, that we potentially mislead patients by telling them that they will have their final result by twelve months so that when the they express dissatisfaction we will be able to book them in for another surgery earlier than had they waited the "true" 18 months. This is absolutely false and shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how we as a clinic conduct ourselves. If there is dissatisfaction we try to address it without adding to our bottom line.

[bonkerstonker]

I'm not a cheerleader I just call things the way I see them no punches held I do the same for any doctors and have done for many years if people look back over my threads they'll find I often play devils advocate and will be found saying negative and positive things about surgeons in the same thread simply because nobody is perfect anyone who completely supports and never sees anything wrong is a cheerleader.

 

People have a right to come on complaining but when they throw sly jabs like this and their not prepared to put their photos where their mouth is running off into the sunset when challenged is way out of line. You can't accuse a doctor in a public forum of misleading you with information and ignoring your wishes in surgery and then do a disappearing act.

 

I realise my tone is a little harsh in a forum where people have much more patience and manners than me but a spade is a spade to me I see know point in sugar coating things.

Edited March 10, 2012 by bonkerstonker

[Maherel]

Bonker. I am sure he didn't come here to have his photos analyzed. His issue was with the timeline not his hair growth. It was about being told it was 12 months when in fact it was more. He is not asking people to take a look at his pictures and judge for themselves whether his hair is thinner in the crown. I am sure he knows that. He doesn't have to prove to the forum that his hair is thinner in the crown. His comments had to do with incorrect information regarding the timeline. He is not accusing the doctor of anything either. Only a lack of information about the timeline, not his skill as a surgeon or his work.

 

Nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade, as long as you are on the mark, which is appears that you are off the mark. It is you that is throwing sly jabs man!

[bonkerstonker]

Bonker. I am sure he didn't come here to have his photos analyzed. His issue was with the timeline not his hair growth. It was about being told it was 12 months when in fact it was more. He is not asking people to take a look at his pictures and judge for themselves whether his hair is thinner in the crown. I am sure he knows that. He doesn't have to prove to the forum that his hair is thinner in the crown. His comments had to do with incorrect information regarding the timeline. He is not accusing the doctor of anything either. Only a lack of information about the timeline, not his skill as a surgeon or his work.

 

Nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade, as long as you are on the mark, which is appears that you are off the mark. It is you that is throwing sly jabs man!

 

 

 

Maherel interesting first post welcome to the forum. There's nothing sly about how I talk it's quite direct and up front I even use my real alias unlike you stvobadia

 

Maybe my opinion of you early was wrong but it's just what I was thinking and you've confirmed it much more now with this new sly trick of changing alias. Seen that trick too many times before it's so lame!! You know I'm right so don't bother denying it!

Edited March 11, 2012 by bonkerstonker

[aaron1234]

In my honest opinion I believe it could be argued that there is NO final result because our hair is in a constant state of flux by nature.

 

I totally agree and have thought about this before. Given the constant cycles and sheds our hair goes through...

[Shampoo]

Ya know after watching this thread and contemplating about it I see this guy stvobadia is in some ways in "no win" situation. (and so is Bill) If a patient has an issue, minor or major, and he'd like to discuss it to get some opinions from people that enjoy discussing hair transplants....and he posts the issue.... immediately people are probably going ask him "who did this surgery?" or "why dont you post some pictures", but think about it....if a patient posts pictures he is giving his identity away to the clinic that he hopes will resolve the issue and they are going to think "uh oh he's gone public". So a patient with issues can't really seek opinions here or he will get the clinic mad at him and/or people charging he is trying to blackmail the clinic by going public. I am not sure what the answer is if a patient has an issue and wants to seek opinions from outside his clinic and friends and family. You would think he could come here, but I fully understand how Bill can not allow rogue posters to slam clinics they are mad at without being able to back it up with some kind of detailed substance.....but if a patient provides the substance he blows his cover and may alienate the doctor. There may not be a good answer......life is like that sometimes.