Why I highly recommend you don't take finasteride

[vanitysucks]

Geez what a long thread. Anyway, I have to think the more athletic a person is the more likely that person is to be affected by a DHT inhibitor like propecia. I would also think youth would be more subject to problems. If a male naturally produces a large amount of DHT he has more to loose. Some guy in his 40's that sits behind a desk all day and drinks 4 beers a day after work probably does not have much of a drive to begin with. I doubt he would really notice being on propecia.

I took it for about a year. I noticed a few changes that I didn't like at the gym and at home and stopped taking it. I was back to normal after 6 months. DHT is one of those good/bad guy hormones. As much negative press as it gets it's no wonder drugs like this are getting popular. Propecia is nothing compared to what I have seen bodybuilders put in their bodies. Stupid, they jack themselves up with so many drugs their organs no longer produce anything. They take one drug to counteract the other and another drug to counteract the previous drug. Eventually they crash, go to rehab, recover, and their bodies return to normal even after years of abuse. Yes, they cannot function sexually for many months but eventually they recover. Propecia is candy compared to this abuse. I doubt propecia has the ability to hurt adult males for the long term given this example. It's amazing how much abuse the human body can take and rebound. Did I type all of that?:eek:

[Blake Bloxham]

And one more thing.....that Jap study must be rigged like the ones done by the pharma cos. If it was not then they would have protested with more vigour.

 

Why would you assume the studies are rigged? These are objective evaluations conducted by scientists with no financial attachment to the results. I often hear people accuse studies of being influenced by entities like "big pharmaceutical," but in my experience with clinical research (which is adequate), most investigators are very dedicated scientists who are not "in it for the money." Additionally, I don't think I've ever seen an article published in a reputable journal that did not reveal a funding conflict of interest (i.e. Merck funded the study) if it could have affected the results.

 

In my opinion, there are two options here:

 

1. The study, which was extensive, is an objective clinical review which was conducted by scientists and, accordingly, published in peer-reviewed sources.

 

2. It's all a big scam and "cover up" to lie and sell drugs (which occurred in two separate studies, conducted over 10 years apart, by two different sources).

 

Which one sounds reasonable and which sounds like a conspiracy theory?

 

I'm not going to stand here and claim that all research is objective and that there have not been clear instances where institutions have "interpreted" results in a manner more fitting to their sponsor's wishes, but this is not the norm and it's not what is happening here.

 

Again, my heart goes out to anyone suffering long-term dysfunction from any medication; I'm simply advocating that we keep the thread balanced and give objective, clinical studies appropriate evaluation.

[gasto]

did not reveal a funding conflict of interest (i.e. Merck funded the study) if it could have affected the results.

In which case a funding conflict of interest does not affect results?

[Fincarred]

Why does everyone focus on DHT suppression when it comes to finasteride causing side effects? it is probably nothing compared to the complete suppression of allopregnanolone. A very recent study has shown that MS patients have low allopregnanolone. That probably explains the life altering cognitive symptoms that finasteride causes. For anyone that's doubting me, do your own research on finasteride and allopregnanolone.

 

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6904/6/7

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006899302022904

 

So, when you take finasteride, not only are you altering your hormone levels to that of a pseudohermaphrodite but you are also nicely shifting the balance of your neurotransmitters to an MS victim.

 

I can't believe this drug is still on the market. With hair transplants becoming more and more popular and celebrities such as Wayne Rooney showing there success. There will surely be countless more lives ruined. I don't think the researchers that are investigating the permanent side effects will ever find a solution either.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Fincarred

[Fincarred]

Why would you assume the studies are rigged? These are objective evaluations conducted by scientists with no financial attachment to the results. I often hear people accuse studies of being influenced by entities like "big pharmaceutical," but in my experience with clinical research (which is adequate), most investigators are very dedicated scientists who are not "in it for the money." Additionally, I don't think I've ever seen an article published in a reputable journal that did not reveal a funding conflict of interest (i.e. Merck funded the study) if it could have affected the results.

 

What is your personal experience with pharmaceutical studies?

 

A large scale study such as the one in Japan could not be completed without huge amounts of money. If you honestly believe that Merck do not have the capability to influence those results then i don't know what to say to you. Merck have a terrible track record when it comes down to ethics and safety.

 

Merck faces FCPA investigation - Business ethics and anti-corruption - Norton Rose Group

 

Feds Launch Bribery Investigation into Drugmaker Merck - DailyFinance

 

Above are two articles showing that Merck are very familiar with bribery in foreign countries. What would make the study in Japan any different? they need this study out there now more than ever; the law suits are pressing on, the media are picking up on permanent side effects, there is an overwhelming amount of negative stuff about fin online.

 

The pharmaceutical industry might improve people's lives throughout the world but you also have to consider that is the biggest business, ever and money comes before humans lives. Merck killed 60,000 people with Vioxx. Do you honestly think they care about thousands of men having there sex lives ruined? well, there quality of life all round ruined.

 

I will admit that permanent side effects are probably very rare but i believe the results from that study are complete bullshit. I don't care what anyone else says.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Fincarred

[Blake Bloxham]

What is your personal experience with pharmaceutical studies?

 

I've probably worked on 5-6 decent research projects throughout my pre-medical and medical career. Because several of these studies were conducted at large, academic medical centers, there was some outside funding with one study. However, as I said before, this conflict was outlined in the published article and the other projects were funded with the considerable endowments and money available through the academic institution.

 

For example, in 2007-2008, the institute where I was researching (which consisted of an undergraduate college, a medical school, dental school, various PhD tracks, etc) had $887,441,532 available in research endowments. Now, I'm not 100% certain what type of backing was available to the institute in Japan, but my point is that various institutions possess both unbiased researchers and plenty of cash to conduct objective studies.

 

A large scale study such as the one in Japan could not be completed without huge amounts of money. If you honestly believe that Merck do not have the capability to influence those results then i don't know what to say to you. Merck have a terrible track record when it comes down to ethics and safety.

 

I won't argue with you about some of the ethical issues inherent in "big pharmaceutical," but see my above point about conducting large studies without funding from direct conflict.

 

there is an overwhelming amount of negative stuff about fin online.

 

I agree, which is why I thought another perspective (with sources) might be helpful in this discussion.

 

I will admit that permanent side effects are probably very rare but i believe the results from that study are complete bullsh*t. I don't care what anyone else says.

 

What level of sexual side effect would you believe? This study shows 0.7% and Merck claims 2%; do you believe both these numbers are too small?

 

Again, I sincerely hope you find a way to alleviate the issues you've experienced and truly hope I didn't offend anyone by sharing a secondary source of information/perspective.

[Sean]

Some of this type of information worries me. I have been using finasteride since age 28. I used it since January 2011 - August 30,2011 (missing a total of 50 days in between). I have been using it daily since August 31st and have yet to see any real side effect. Does this mean I can end up with serious side effects later? Someone mentioned they didn't see anything for the first couple years, then after 4 years something happened? Any studies regarding long term use? And with what age groups does finasteride have the highest rate of side effects? I feel finasteride has really helped my crown and mid scalp and even made hairs thicker, adding rogaine to the regimen seemed to help it even more, but now I am cautious and reading more about it after seeing these type of threads. I don't want to quit it because I don't want to lose what I gained and at the same time I am now scared of the sides. Now, I am just stressing about medication. I wonder if users using this over 5 years can chime in and speak of any issues with long term use.

 

As for those that may be facing sexual side effects, have you tried high amount of zinc capsules, l-arginine, l-ornithine, pineapples, pineapple juices, pomegranate juice, yohimbe, horny goat weed, and other natural supplements?

 

I worked at a health food store before. I know a lot of people that have had erection and other serious sexual problems use some of that stuff for a month or two and regain their sex drive. You might want to check it out.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Sean

[gasto]

What is your personal experience with pharmaceutical studies?

 

A large scale study such as the one in Japan could not be completed without huge amounts of money. If you honestly believe that Merck do not have the capability to influence those results then i don't know what to say to you. Merck have a terrible track record when it comes down to ethics and safety.

 

Merck faces FCPA investigation - Business ethics and anti-corruption - Norton Rose Group

 

Feds Launch Bribery Investigation into Drugmaker Merck - DailyFinance

 

Above are two articles showing that Merck are very familiar with bribery in foreign countries. What would make the study in Japan any different? they need this study out there now more than ever; the law suits are pressing on, the media are picking up on permanent side effects, there is an overwhelming amount of negative stuff about fin online.

 

The pharmaceutical industry might improve people's lives throughout the world but you also have to consider that is the biggest business, ever and money comes before humans lives. Merck killed 60,000 people with Vioxx. Do you honestly think they care about thousands of men having there sex lives ruined? well, there quality of life all round ruined.

 

I will admit that permanent side effects are probably very rare but i believe the results from that study are complete bullshit. I don't care what anyone else says.

 

Thanks for the information. Sexual side-effects seem almost like a joke compared to prostate cancer and the Multiple Sclerosis association.

 

You are giving this community a great service. Thanks again.

[Fincarred]

Some of this type of information worries me. I have been using finasteride since age 28. I used it since January 2011 - August 30,2011 (missing a total of 50 days in between). I have been using it daily since August 31st and have yet to see any real side effect. Does this mean I can end up with serious side effects later? Someone mentioned they didn't see anything for the first couple years, then after 4 years something happened? Any studies regarding long term use? And with what age groups does finasteride have the highest rate of side effects? I feel finasteride has really helped my crown and mid scalp and even made hairs thicker, adding rogaine to the regimen seemed to help it even more, but now I am cautious and reading more about it after seeing these type of threads. I don't want to quit it because I don't want to lose what I gained and at the same time I am now scared of the sides. Now, I am just stressing about medication. I wonder if users using this over 5 years can chime in and speak of any issues with long term use.

 

As for those that may be facing sexual side effects, have you tried high amount of zinc capsules, l-arginine, l-ornithine, pineapples, pineapple juices, pomegranate juice, yohimbe, horny goat weed, and other natural supplements?

 

I worked at a health food store before. I know a lot of people that have had erection and other serious sexual problems use some of that stuff for a month or two and regain their sex drive. You might want to check it out.

 

The Propeciahelp forum has many members that took the drug for years on end with no/ minimal side effects and eventually it got them or as they came off the drug for whatever reason they crashed and the usual symptoms set in. I only took finasteride on and off in small dosages for a couple of months and i never got major side effects when i was using the drug but when i quit for the final time, 3 weeks after my last dosage i was hit numerous side effects that are well documented during androgen deprivation.

 

I have tried a number of natural and pharmaceutical remedies in the two years that i have been dealing with these side effects. High dosages of zinc, magnesium, digestive enzymes, selenium, thyroid supplements, adrenal supplements, yohimbine, tribulus, melatonin, pregnenolone, progesterone, niacin, super dose vit d, vitamin c, spirulina etc etc etc. I spent $3000 of my student loan on that sort of stuff and now i have had to drop out of a top university. I am the healthiest guy i have ever came across. I barely touch junk food, don't drink or smoke, stick mainly to organic vegetables and lean meat, use many herbs and lots of garlic and often drink juices like pomegranate and beetroot and yet my penis is completely dead, my thought processes and memory are a mess and i have the sleep quality of a 50 year old menopausal woman.

 

I am not going to tell you all that you shouldn't use finasteride because it will cause permanent side effects. From what i can gather most people that take the drug do not have any major issues. However, i will say that anyone considering or currently taking finasteride should have a long and hard think about it and look into other studies/ journals aside from the clinical data that Merck set out, because there lies the shocking truth about using powerful 5AR inhibitors. The almost complete suppression of Allopregnanolone and drastic reduction of DHT (10X more powerful than testosterone) for cosmetic reasons is barbaric. If i knew what i know now, i wouldn't have gone near the stuff.

 

At the end of the day guys, do you really want to be taking an anti androgen drug from a company that not long ago killed 60,000 people and did everything in there power to keep it on the shelves? look at what they are doing with propecia now; they have taken both the propecia and proscar website down and replaced them with links to the FDA to report side effects. This is damage control in preparation for the lawsuits. They are able to discretely ruin thousands of mens lives in the most horrible fashion and get away with it scott free.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2011 by Future_HT_Doc

[Blake Bloxham]

Just a friendly reminder: we do not host outside or promotional links on our discussion forums. Thanks guys.

[Fincarred]

No links to outside sources can be used at all? none of those are promotional

[Blake Bloxham]

No links to outside sources can be used at all? none of those are promotional

 

Fin,

 

All this information links to sites promoting something. Keep in mind that promotion doesn't need to involve a product or point of sale; it could simply involve promoting an idea or an agenda.

 

Furthermore, do not share links again after they have been removed from your post. I don't want to act like a dictator or stifle information, but this is the only warning I'll provide when it comes to re-posting links.

 

EDIT: I've left the youtube videos up. I want this discussion to be fair and balanced ... even if the opinions differ from a certain point of view. Thanks.

[zenmunk]

Sean,

 

I've been taking propecia for 13 years. The following post may interest you:

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/163746-those-considering-starting-finasteride-therapy.html

 

The only change is, instead of saliva, my doctor recommended blood tests for Progesterone & Cortisol (am & pm). If/when I get the tests done for Pregnenolone, Progesterone & Cortisol, I will update the above post.

[Fincarred]

US guys be sure to pick up Men's Health this month as there is a 4 PAGE article on post finasteride syndrome

[gasto]

How about these about general medicine and research being propensely biased( apply it to the infamous Propecia trials, especially the fishy Japanese one where a ridiculous percentage of side-effects were purported).

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/sep/21/drugs-industry-scandal-ben-goldacre

Edited September 27, 2012 by gasto

[Blake Bloxham]

How about these about general medicine and research being propensely biased( apply it to the infamous Propecia trials, especially the fishy Japanese one where a ridiculous percentage of side-effects were purported).

 

The drugs don't work: a modern medical scandal | Ben Goldacre | Business | The Guardian

 

What was wrong with the Japanese Propecia study? Published in a legitimate journal, conducted by third party scientists, void (from what I can tell) of "big pharma" influence, etc.

 

Aside from the results, did you have issues with the methodology? The statistics used to analyze the data? Did you note bias with the sampling or randomization?

 

Just curious as to whether or not people think it's a bad study or simply don't believe the results.

[Shampoo]

"Tons of people on a message board" complaining about propecia seems to me to give a very misleading sample of patients that have a problem with taking the drug. For every 5 people that complain isn't there roughly 90-95 people that use the drug successfully that we almost never hear from?

 

It seems to me that the statistically few people that have problems, want to pretend it's some huge percentage of patients that have problems with propecia when that is not at all the case. Then they suggest "well there might be problems down the road", but we could say that about any drug or chemicals we are exposed to.

 

I am sorry for the patients that don't tolerate propecia well, but it seems pretty clear by numerous studies that they are in the overwhelming minority.

[chrisdav]

I agree with you Shampoo.

[gasto]

What was wrong with the Japanese Propecia study? Published in a legitimate journal, conducted by third party scientists, void (from what I can tell) of "big pharma" influence, etc.

 

Aside from the results, did you have issues with the methodology? The statistics used to analyze the data? Did you note bias with the sampling or randomization?

 

Just curious as to whether or not people think it's a bad study or simply don't believe the results.

 

Evaluation of efficacy and safety of finasteride ... [J Dermatol. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

 

Let's start by the racial bias. All the patients were Japanese.

 

 

"Safety data were assessed by interviews and laboratory tests in all men enrolled in the study."

 

Interviews for health issues? There are some health problems that are not easily targeted by pain complaints...

 

 

But the highly biased claim in the conclusion is right at the end:

 

"In Japanese men with AGA, oral finasteride used in the long-term study maintained progressive hair regrowth without recognized side-effect."

 

Without recognized side-effect? There is no medicine out there without side-effect and yet they are able to construct such a claim?

 

Evaluation of efficacy and safety of finasteride 1 mg in 3177 Japanese men with androgenetic alopecia - SATO - 2011 - The Journal of Dermatology - Wiley Online Library

 

There is no information on the funding, as well.

[Blake Bloxham]

Evaluation of efficacy and safety of finasteride ... [J Dermatol. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

 

Let's start by the racial bias. All the patients were Japanese.

 

 

"Safety data were assessed by interviews and laboratory tests in all men enrolled in the study."

 

Interviews for health issues? There are some health problems that are not easily targeted by pain complaints...

 

 

But the highly biased claim in the conclusion is right at the end:

 

"In Japanese men with AGA, oral finasteride used in the long-term study maintained progressive hair regrowth without recognized side-effect."

 

Without recognized side-effect? There is no medicine out there without side-effect and yet they are able to construct such a claim?

 

Evaluation of efficacy and safety of finasteride 1*mg in 3177 Japanese men with androgenetic alopecia - SATO - 2011 - The Journal of Dermatology - Wiley Online Library

 

There is no information on the funding, as well.

 

You'd be hard pressed to find a legitimate study without half a dozen flaws like you pointed out.

 

I've listened to individuals with PhD's in physiology, medically related fields, etc, absolutely rip incredible studies from the New England Journal of Medicine, Journal of the American Medical Association, etc, to shreds. In the end, no study will ever be perfect.

 

However, I still think the Japanese Propecia study was one of the better finasteride-based studies to date. Frankly, it offers some objective data into an arena of theories, opinions, and n = 1 experiences, and I appreciate that.

 

Having said that, I do think the issue needs to be analyzed further. This research is far, far from over, and I look forward to future studies (despite what the results may be).

[TommyLucchese]

All I can say is in 2.5 years on Propecia and my hair is a million times better than it was, and my manhood is working perfectly.

[londonboycharlie]

Be interesting to see what kind of information come out about the drug when the inevitable class action lawsuits start against the manufacturers

[Blake Bloxham]

Be interesting to see what kind of information come out about the drug when the inevitable class action lawsuits start against the manufacturers

 

The class action lawsuits have already started.

 

I also wanted to add one small comment:

 

regardless of whether or not persistent sexual side effects affect a very small or larger than expected number of hair loss sufferers, I feel awful for individuals and wish it never happened to anyone. If there is anything our community can do to help hair loss sufferers with these issues, don't hesitate to send any of the moderators a private message.

[Bobilero]

Bottom line is each individual can only garner their opinon on this drug from their own personal experience.

 

Mine is an awful experience in which it took over a year to recover having been on the drug for nearly 4 years without side effects.

 

I have recovered though now. Good luck to everyone on it. The side effects and lifetime commitment was definitly not for me though or to lose everything gained once i stopped taking it.

 

But if it works for people , good for them. I hope they dont get hit with the sides. I just get a really bad gut feeling about this drug and a future massive medical scandal. Sincerley hope im wrong.

 

My main issue with this drug is not the drug itself but in how blase and reckless Dr's and other 'HT related individuals' are about prescribing or advising people to get on it. People should be made aware of the risks and let make their own choices for sure.

 

However it is imperative that people should be made get their bloodwork / hormonal data done BEFORE starting this drug. It is essential they have baseline data should things go wrong. Otherwise they are in a medical limbo and dont know what is causing their problems. From my experience and what i can see this just isnt happening.

 

People are jumping on this stuff like they would asprin. Its an extremley powerful drug in which we dont know what the long term implications are and which needs to be treated with much more care.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Bobilero

[Shampoo]

As Bobilero says Propecia is a "2EachHisOwn".

 

With that said we hear about the downsides of taking Propecia, but I think it also needs to be known that there are downsides to not taking Propecia.

 

This isn't a situation where you just decide to not take propecia and end up with as much hair as the guy taking propecia. You probably wont.

 

In fact you will probably go bald quicker and possibly be faced with spending thousands more on extra transplants trying to keep up with native hair loss that probably could have been saved longer had Propecia use continued.

 

Most top doctors advise their patients to take propecia to preserve native hair, but each patient must in the end decide which downside they can live with.