Doctors bypassing your input

[PerfectFew]

Originally posted by NervousNelly:

 

I certainly use to have some of the same questions as you, but soon came to realize that Pat is a stand up guy that has capitalized on a much needed service. Who cares how much money he makes promoting this site as long as innocent patients are getting the knowledge they need to avoid being butchered by some hack. That is invaluable.

 

Bill has made a great point in that there are several well respected members that have posted here for years and you show up out of the blue and try to discredit this site. Do you think you'll have many followers?? We aren't idiots, we can see your intentions and know why it is you choose to slander this site and Pat.

 

Nervous Nelly:

 

A stand up guy would disclose the fees he charges. He would clearly state where he is promoting doctors for money, and he wouldn't "recommend" doctors publicly on the forum. He would leave that to the patients. It is a huge conflict of interest.

 

By the way, I didn't show up out of the blue. The only reason I came to this site is because someone from this forum and Pat started it all by posting defaming posts in this forum about a competing forum. Then, they went to the other site and posted more defamation. What is good for the goose, is good for the gander. Pat & Bill showed up out of the blue, because the paycheck will be getting smaller. And very soon, it won't exist at all.

[NervousNelly]

Mr. Perfect,

 

Bill did not lie, he made an error. It is allowed. Yourself however, have made several accusations with no substantiated proof.

 

You have said what it is you wanted to say so I believe it is time for you to piss off and go support your other site. Best of luck.

 

NN

[PerfectFew]

Originally posted by NervousNelly:

Mr. Perfect,

 

Bill did not lie, he made an error. It is allowed. Yourself however, have made several accusations with no substantiated proof.

 

You have said what it is you wanted to say so I believe it is time for you to piss off and go support your other site. Best of luck.

 

NN

 

No, he lied. It is clearly obvious. It needed to be pointed out so that these fine doctors don't get defamed.

 

I am a patient advocate. Until Pat comes out and clearly states the truth behind the "coalition" and the "recommended" doctors, I will continue to educate patients.

 

I have made no accusations. I have substantiated proof. Why don't you just ask the doctors in question?

[NervousNelly]

Mr. Perfect,

 

What do you want to hear?? Ya he makes money-possibly lots. So what? It does cost a lot of money to run a business and I'm sure that he is accurate in his statement that in some years the company was not profitable.

 

Why is it that Dr.'s want to be on this site. Do they want to be extorted? I had never heard of Dr. Nakatsui until Pat made us aware of him. Yes he is now a Coalition member, but it was his choice. I rather doubt that Pat said "join or I'll defame your abilities." How do you explain new members wanting to join?? Don't you think that in such a small tight knit profession that word would get out if it was such a bad thing to join as a Coalition member? Top notch surgeons are seeking out Pat so that they can be members.

 

NN

[PerfectFew]

Originally posted by NervousNelly:

Mr. Perfect,

 

What do you want to hear?? Ya he makes money-possibly lots. So what? It does cost a lot of money to run a business and I'm sure that he is accurate in his statement that in some years the company was not profitable.

 

Why is it that Dr.'s want to be on this site. Do they want to be extorted? I had never heard of Dr. Nakatsui until Pat made us aware of him. Yes he is now a Coalition member, but it was his choice. I rather doubt that Pat said "join or I'll defame your abilities." How do you explain new members wanting to join?? Don't you think that in such a small tight knit profession that word would get out if it was such a bad thing to join as a Coalition member? Top notch surgeons are seeking out Pat so that they can be members.

 

NN

 

Mr. Nervous,

 

I want to hear the truth. The doctors do not want to be on this site. That is the nature of extortion. This site is nothing but advertising. Just tell the truth! They don't seek him out. He seeks them out. People are just now starting to see the reality.

 

Pat makes a lot of money by leaching off of these physicians. Making money is fine, so long as you are willing to state it clearly.

[NervousNelly]

Perfect idiot,

 

"The doctors do not want to be on this site"

 

That statement is bullshit. If that were true they would all get together tommorrow and leave. How credible would it be if Pat tried to defame all of them at once. "They all produce shitty work and that's why I kicked them off." Get real.

 

NN

[PerfectFew]

Originally posted by NervousNelly:

Perfect idiot,

 

"The doctors do not want to be on this site"

 

That statement is bullshit. If that were true they would all get together tommorrow and leave. How credible would it be if Pat tried to defame all of them at once. "They all produce shitty work and that's why I kicked them off." Get real.

 

NN

 

That is exactly what they are doing. It is common knowledge among the respectable HT physicians that this site is extorting honest physicians. A revolution is happening. Very soon, when Pat's money dries up because the physicians no longer support him. This site will become irrelevant.

 

By the way, I heard once that when someone doesn't agree with the facts of an argument, they resort to name calling and using cuss words. Is this true?

[Pat - Community Publisher]

Imperfect Few,

 

You stated above that -

 

By the way, I didn't show up out of the blue. The only reason I came to this site is because someone from this forum and Pat started it all by posting defaming posts in this forum about a competing forum. Then, they went to the other site and posted more defamation.

 

 

Yet anyone who looks at your profile can see that you first registed on this site on February 6th of 2006 to share your experience with Dr. Goetz. You really need to get your info straight.

 

I also don't hide the fact that physicians contribute to this community as it is clearly spelled on all our sites. On the Hair Transplant Network on the "How We Select the Physicians Recommended on this Site" page it reads:

 

Important Note - The hair restoration physicians recommended on this site are not a definitive list of all excellent hair restoration surgeons. Nor do we warranty or guaranty the results of any of the physicians presented on this site. As always, we encourage you to do your due diligence in evaluating these and all physicians.

 

View our full list of Hair Transplant Surgeons.

 

For tips on finding and evaluating a physician, click here.

 

To find a quality prescreened physician in your area, click here.

 

How this online community is funded.

 

Those surgeons who are carefully reviewed and chosen for recommendation on this site contribute a monthly fee to co-sponsor this online community and display their before and after photos and contact information.

 

 

P.S. Bill was correct in his statement that some of the doctors on your site could not meet the standards for recommendation here - most notably Dr. Goertz who was removed for doing work as shown in this photo. I also met with Drs. Weinstein and Rousso. While I found them to be gentleman I did not have the confidence to recommend them.

[PerfectFew]

Yet anyone who looks at your profile can see that you first registed on this site on February 6th of 2006 to share your experience with Dr. Goetz. You really need to get your info straight.

 

 

My surgery was performed on March 6th. I registered a FULL MONTH before I had my surgery. Get your info straight. I asked about Dr. Goertz and you said "he didn't meet your standards". You lied. It is simple. He refused to pay your fees. Those are your standards. Please tell the truth before it is too late.

 

P.S. Bill was correct in his statement that some of the doctors on your site could not meet the standards for recommendation here - most notably Dr. Goertz who was removed for doing work as shown in this photo. I also met with Drs. Weinstein and Rousso. While I found them to be gentleman I did not have the confidence to recommend them.

 

They don't want to pay your fees. It is nothing short of extortion.

[MrJobi]

Yes, I understand what you are saying

 

But Perfect there is one point you are missing

 

 

THE PATIENTS RESULTS ARE DOCUMENTED TO QUALIFY THE DOCTORS..

 

They just don't pay the fee and get on here

 

that's the proof .. Seriously

[PerfectFew]

Paid Advertising != Patient Advocacy

[MrJobi]

Now you are dodging the questions

 

You would make a horrible lawyer

[PerfectFew]

Thank goodness I am not a lawyer.

 

Pat is dodging the questions. Stop being his shill.

[MrJobi]

Stop being overwhelmed by your rage and be objective

 

You still havent answered my question

 

No shill, here.. I don't get paid brother

 

( I just think you like saying the word shill)

 

[PerfectFew]

I don't have to answer your questions either. I am not getting paid. Pat is. He needs to answer the questions.

 

You should just go away and let him.

[MrJobi]

Nope

 

You havent answered my question.. So here I am again

[Pat - Community Publisher]

I've been contacting some of the physicians who are backing the Hair Loss Doctor List site and will have some interesting updates to post on this forum in the near futre.

 

Perfect Few,

 

Regarding your false comment above in which you wrote -

 

 

quote:

I asked about Dr. Goertz and you said "he didn't meet your standards". You lied. It is simple. He refused to pay your fees. Those are your standards. Please tell the truth before it is too late.

 

 

I'd be happy to "tell the truth before it's too late."

 

On multiple topics posted on this forum you have accused me of lying when I told the truth that I removed Dr. Goertz due to concerns about the quality of his work.

 

Yet you have no evidence to provide. Of course, how could you since you were not involved in my decision to remove Dr. Goertz. By your own account you are only a patient of Dr. Goertz who presumably does not read Dr. Goertz's emails.

 

However, I do have proof. I keep all my emails and I spent time this evening searching my correspondence with Dr. Goertz. Below is an email I sent to Dr. Goertz on February 27th of 2005 notifying him that I would no longer continue recommending him on our community due to quality concerns.

 

On this forum Perfect Few wrote -

 

quote:

 

 

This is not true. I asked about a doctor on this forum, and Pat quickly chimed in saying he didn't meet the "standards", which was a bold-faced lie. The doctor in question refused to renew his membership because the fees were basically extortion. I feel sorry for you that you really believe this site is about "patient advocacy".

 

Perfect Few repeated this misinformation in yet another one of his posts:

 

Complete lies. The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it. I feel sorry for you because you clearly have no soul. You consistently make sales calls to Dr. Goertz. That is all they are. When he refused to renew his membership (i.e. pay your extortion) you delisted him. That is the truth. Can you give me ONE EXAMPLE of a patient whose results were not good? You are doing exactly what you say you don't, disguised by a thin veil of the lie.

 

Because you didn't visit his clinic, nor meet any of his patients, how can you make such statements? I can see why he didn't want to PAY YOU to visit his clinic. He is an ethical person. Something that is not natural for you. You sold your soul to the devil, and your time has come.

 

 

But the dishonesty of his false allegations is easily apparent when my correspondence with Dr. Goertz is read (see below):

 

Dr. Goertz's response to my email and my follow up reply are also included.

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Pat - Hair Transplant Network [mailto:pat@hairtransplantnetwork.com]

Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 5:19 PM

To: Brian Goertz

Subject: Dr. Goertz, We will not be able to renew you in the Coalition or in the Hair Transplant Network

 

Dr. Goertz,

 

I have not received the immediate post op photos that I requested and therefore will not be able to renew your membership in the Coalition or continue recommending you on the Hair Transplant Network. As I mentioned in my previous email the standards for inclusion in the Coalition are now higher and all those renewing were asked to submit these post op photos to be considered for renewal.

 

I'm also concerned by the post op photos I saw posted on our forum by the contest winner you did. In my opinion the incisions are too large and far apart and invasive on the scalp and do not meet our current standards for membership. I have attached this photo for your reference and also a photo showing the type of immediate post op results we expect of Coalition members.

 

You will note the small minimally invasive incisions that are closely placed to allow for good cosmetic density after one session.

I hope that you take this feed back in a constructive light. The bar for excellent hair restoration has moved considerably higher in the past two years and our editorial content and recommendations need to reflect these new realities.

 

For now I will not be able to present you on either the Coalition web sites or the Hair Transplant Network.com.

 

If you feel that your patient's posted photos are not representative of your work, now or in the future, please feel free to send them to me and we will reconsider presenting you again on our sites.

 

Thank you for your past support and best wishes for your practice in the future.

 

Patrick Hennessey

 

Dr. Goertz's reply:

 

I am offended that you would cancel me as a recommended physician with such a paucity of correspondence at the 11th hour! You already knew before this posting your new criteria, why was I not informed?

 

If we are truly a "Coalition of Independent Physicians" should we not be judged by our peers? I am completely comfortable by having my work and results judged by them. Would it not be more appropriate for other members of the coalition to be involved in this all important step?

 

As I discussed with you when you first invited me to join and you requested to observe my surgery, it made me uncomfortable. It still is not appropriate for a lay person. I would invite any of my colleagues to observe me and have trained others as well.

 

Again please review the attached photos. If you would like to see more please let me know the size of files you can accept and I will send them.

 

I truly feel my work is second to none, yet try to improve my techniques daily. I have learned much from my colleagues look forward to continued sharing of ideas with them as we try to improve the field of hair transplantation for our patients.

 

I sincerely hope you find this helpful,

 

PS. I did leave you a voicemail on your cell phone this morning but have not heard from you.

Please respond by March 1st.

 

My follow up reply:

 

Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:46:57 -0800 (PST)

From: Patrick Hennessey

Subject: Re: , We will not be able to renew you in the Coalition or in the Hair Transplant Network

To:

 

Thank you for taking the time to provide me with more information about your surgical philosophy. I know that it is difficult to have a "lay person" make judgments about your work. You are certainly not the first to voice this concern.

 

However, ultimately it is always the lay person who makes the final determination on their choice of treatment and physician. Ideally their decision will be based upon information gathered during a medical consultation with a qualified physician and from comparing notes and experiences with actual patients, on and offline.

 

Today many potential patients look to the Internet as a resource for gathering and sharing credible information. We strive to serve hair loss sufferers by helping to educate them about procedures and physicians who we think are in their best interest. We are careful to not claim to have definative information. We simply offer those visiting our sites the best information we can in an open environment in which they can share information.

 

I have privately observed dozens of surgical procedures first hand in clinics over the past seven years. I've also attended over a dozen hair restoration conferences and workshops. While this does not qualify me to do surgery, it has given me a solid grounding in what constitutes state of the art surgery.

 

I may be wrong in choosing for now to not present you on our sites. But I would rather error on the conservative side than endorse a physician I need to learn more about to confidently endorse.

 

I have made the mistake of endorsing physicians who later did not meet my expectations or those of the patients that found them on our sites. I have found this scenario to be much more troubling than not promoting a physician I'm not completely confident with.

 

I did take your suggestion to heart to gather a second opinion from a hair restoration physician who I trust. This physician was shown the two post op photos of your work anonymously and asked to evaluate them. Like me, he found the incisions to be more invasive than ideally needed and the grafts to be larger than necessary for a truly refined state of the art hair transplant.

 

Much has changed over the past few years and today surgeons are doing work that they would not have imagined just a couple of years ago. I believe that you are a sincere and ethical physician and that you may well be doing truly outstanding surgeries in the near future.

 

I will remain open to learning more about your ever evolving surgery and results in the hope that one day we will be confident in promoting you on our web communities.

 

I hope you understand my need to error on the safe side at least for now.

 

Thank you for your past support. I look forward to the day when we will be able to collaborate once again.

 

Patrick Hennessey, Publisher of the Hair Transplant Network, the Hair Restoration Network and the Hair Loss Learning Center

[Bayer]

I just tried to post on the Doc's Hairclub site to get PFew to address the email exchange between Pat and Dr. Goertz. As I attempted to post, I received the following message:

 

"You have posted to a moderated forum.

Your message will not be available until it has been approved.

 

A moderator will review your post shortly.

 

Thank you."

 

Censorship is alive and well! Anyone attempting to post work not approved by the member docs will likely be punted.

 

Bayer

[Pat - Community Publisher]

Apparently we gave Perfect Few an over dose of reality over on his forum and he choked. My posts, Hairbank's and Bill' were also white washed off their forum. Perfect Few can now go back to speaking to himself and his alter identities, while show casing his patient portfolio. I hope he doesn't get too lonely.

 

Update on the physicians presented on Dr. Goertz's website.

 

I did speak with several of our recommended physicians today who were presented on the Hair Loss Doctor List. All of them told me that they did not realize the hostile tone and intent of this site or Dr. Goertz's grudge with this community. Those who viewed our forum were not impressed by the hostile tone of the defaming posts made by Perfect Few on this forum.

 

Most of these physicians assured me that they will be withdrawing from Dr. Goertz's site promptly.

 

Dr. Bernstien and Dr. Nusbaum requested that their names be removed immediately and Dr. Goertz has apparently honored their request and removed them from his site as of today, Monday.

 

I did not have the chance to speak with Dr. Beehner or Drs. Bobby and Brad Limmer about their association with this site.

 

Recommended physicians Dr. Cooley, Dr. Beehner, Dr. Harris and Dr. Parsley are still presented on Dr. Goertz's site.

 

However, Dr. Cooley assured me that he will be discontinuing his association with this site promptly. Dr. Parsley also supports the value of this community and its forum and also intends to disassociate himself from Dr. Goertz's website.

 

Dr. Harris wanted to speak with Dr. Goertz prior to making his final decision. But Dr. Harris spoke highly of our community and its positive value for his patients and his unwillingness to be associated with a site that would denigrate our community.

 

I will continue to provide this community with updates on the choices our recommended physicians make.

 

I appreciate the respect for our community that these physicians have shown today by disassociating their good names from a website that has a destructive and divisive agenda.

 

I would expect nothing less of stand up physicians who have proven their ability to meet the standards and expectations of this community.

 

Perfect Few posted several times on this forum that physicians would soon be leaving our community in droves. It appears that his prediction will hold true but only for his website.

 

I will be notifying all the recommended physician sponsors of our community about this controversy and its outcome. I expect that once they know the truth about Dr. Goertz's site and its agenda they will not associate with it either.

 

I want to thank all the members of this community who rallied to defend this community and the right of patients to share their experiences and opinions openly.

 

You have won the day for this community and the leading physicians who support it.

 

Our community will continue to help hair loss sufferers find and learn about outstanding physicians and their techniques, while helping leading physicians find and educate patients.

 

This most recent controversy has shown that the collaboration between our patient community and the quality physicians who support it is strong.

 

Pat

[M&M]

That's great news. And to this community that stayed at a higher level than 'Imperfect Few' who resorted to name calling and multiple posts, I commend you!

 

I owe this forum quite a bit in terms of the information it has offered me and certainly look to give back to others in a similar manner now and in the future.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Pat,

 

Thanks for the formal update. Great news about the doctors. PLEASE keep us posted regarding the decisions of our recommended physicians as to whether or not they officially leave the site.

 

Ironically, I think Perfect Few made such a fool of himself that even some of HIS posts were removed from the other forum.

 

Since I've posted all I need to post over there, I have no intention of posting there again. It is a sad lonely forum that is about to get lonelier.

 

I almost feel bad for Dr. Goertz...

 

ALMOST...

 

But the bed he made, now he must lie in it. Instead of spending energy trying to improve his methods and better himself, he spent the energy on being vindictive. Character is truly the most important thing about a person...without it, skill means nothing. It is character that give someone heart, and heart that gives someone passion. Without passion, NOBODY can do anything quality...at best, maybe mediocrity.

 

I'm glad to be a part of this community and consider it a privilege to share my wisdom and further expand my knowledge learning from others.

 

Bill

[hairbank]

Wonderful news, Pat!

 

Our Coalition Surgeons are here because not only of their skills, but their integrity and character as well. I believe it's definitely in ALL of their best interest to review what it's worth to be associated with a site that clearly has a hidden agenda.

 

We have nothing to prove at HTN. The site has been here for years (and will continue to be) supporting those who frequent the site in search of information regarding hair loss.

 

Great to see the community band together in support!!

[Pat - Community Publisher]

Hairbank you are right in saying that "Our Coalition Surgeons are here because not only of their skills, but their integrity and character as well."

 

They do not want to be associated with a site with a negative agenda. They also apparently have good business sense and know what and who really serves their patients and them.

 

As of mid afternoon Tuesday - Dr. Cooley and Dr. Harris have also had their information removed from Dr. Goertz's site at their request.

 

At this point the only physicians who are recommended on the Hair Transplant Network that are still presented on Dr. Goertz's website are Dr. Beehner, Dr. Parsley and Drs. Bobby and Brad Limmer.

 

We shall soon see if they will also choose to disassociate from Dr. Goertz's site.

[Bill - Seemiller]

I also agree with hairbank regarding the integrity and character of our doctors. This is how it is, and this is how we should keep it.

 

I'm glad to see that our coalition doctors are dropping like flies over there. Personally, since I have the most familiarity with Dr. Cooley and have high respect for his work, I'm ESPECIALLY glad to see he dropped off the list.

 

Pat...thanks for all your hard work! Please keep us posted brother.

 

Bill

[Bayer]

Great follow up, Pat. Of course you should be spending your time doing all of this for free .

 

The fact that doctors are "dropping like flies" from this site addresses the issue of uneducated potential HT candidates viewing this site as credible.

 

Here's to Dr. Goertz swimming on his own. I was just in this site and it has been totally skinned down - no forum.

 

Bayer