Doctors bypassing your input

[hairbank]

Originally posted by sanjayahair:

To hairbank and Bill. You should not be so mad at Abbie. I looked at her information that she post to this page and I dont see the problem you see. She just have an opinion like you also have an opinion. Instead of get mad at Abbie for the opinion you should just say your opinin discuss the information and say your own experience. It looks to be that Abbie was trying to help by saying this website is getting unfriendly and the person who look here are not getting the information. Thank you.

 

sanjayahair-

 

Where do you read in my posts that I am "mad" at Abbie? I merely asked honest questions as to her intentions from her first post but she has not replied to me. If you'll read my second post to her I mentioned that I believe she could be an asset to this site with her knowledge.

 

Just trying to call things as I see them, my friend.

[Guest Brad Limmer, MD]

Pat:

 

It was good to speak to you yesterday (05/17/2007) and explain my personal involvement on Dr. Brian Goertz's site. I was not aware of the activity generated on the HTN by Dr. Goertz's site. For those not privy to our conversation, let me review the main points.

"?? For many years, long before the HTN, IAHRS, and other sites existed, quality physicians have discussed creating an educational site directed towards informing the public in an honest and ethical fashion of the advantages, disadvantages and potential complications of hair restoration. At one time I kept a list of those physicians who had such an interest and who produced the highest level of hair restoration surgery. Such a site never came to be because of the time and Internet expertise needed to pursue such an endeavor and the gap became filled by yourself and others who were willing to commit to it.

"?? In 2004, Dr. Goertz came to me at the ISHRS meeting explaining that he wished to create such a site and because of his company involved in the net he had the expertise among his staff to do so. I was not aware of his past, present, and future relationship with Pat Hennessey or the HTN. Nothing further came of this conversation until Dr. Goertz again visited me at lunch during the 2006 ISHRS meeting in San Diego and again raised the concept. At this time I promised Dr. Goertz that I would make 10 telephone calls to physicians in the field for whom I had great respect both based upon their work and their integrity witnessed over my career of 39 years in dermatology, the last 19 years spent in hair research, teaching, and restoration. I made those 10 calls as I had promised to do.

"?? As I told you on May 17th, I saw Dr. Goertz's efforts as simply another site for patient information. The doctors were to meet and discuss the standards, ethical code, etc. of such a site at the next ISHRS meeting in Las Vegas, this fall. So any doctor involved including myself had no input into Dr. Goertz's site other than an interest in the possibility of such a site for public education.

"?? I looked (very briefly) at a proposed site makeup from Dr. Goertz perhaps 2 months ago. The listing had my name and Dr. Harris' name on the front page. I called Dr. Goertz and requested my name be removed since I had no vested interest other than contributing honest and ethical answers to any questions from potential hair restoration patients. Obviously my name did not get deleted. I hope the agenda of these physicians is understood better by this posting and the concept of revenge and personal vendetta against you or the HTN is removed. These physicians, in my opinion, are among the cream of the crop in the field. Many of them are on the HTN and deserve respect for careers that have benefited the patients in the hair loss field.

 

B.L. Limmer, MD/jac

[Pat - Community Publisher]

Dr. Limmer,

 

Thank you for sharing your perspective on this controversy. Based on your response, I get the impression that you did not read the preceding topic/thread but rather drafted a letter/statement which your admin posted.

 

As the lay person publisher of this community, I have a different perspective on this controversy, which I do not dismiss as an innocent and innocuous incident.

 

As you well know, the hair transplant industry/profession has done a poor job of monitoring/regulating itself. I believe this lack of accountability produced much of the negative perceptions about hair transplantation that for years plagued your industry/profession.

 

Many physicians have resisted the patient empowerment and accountability that this community has fostered.

 

Frankly, my entry into this industry ten years ago was much like stepping into a huge toxic waste dump. There were so many hair cripples crying foul online it made running a forum a nightmare, while some doctors attacked the very right for this community to exist.

 

Now this negativity and mistrust has largely been cleaned up due to the quality work being done by leading physicians and the advocacy of the patient members of this community. Trust has been re-established and many are now restoring their hair successfully.

 

I hope that you and your colleagues will show the good sense to not violate the public trust and the patient/physician collaboration that we have all worked hard to build over the past ten years.

 

Pat Hennessey,

 

P.S. Just as patients are encouraged to do their due diligence and look before they leap, physicians should do likewise before they lend their support to organizations and websites.

 

Just as it's advisable to read a contract before signing it, I advise you to read any website you support and or promote in the future.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Dr. Limmer,

 

Thank you for your post and sharing publicly the points that you and Pat discussed privately on the phone.

 

I believe your intentions were good...(as well as the other physicians who have also promptly removed themselves from that site). After all, how could anyone really know the ultimate intentions of another? Unfortunately, sometimes intentions leak into behaviors, which is why Dr. Goertz's site reaked of hostility towards this one, and ultimately the rights of patients.

 

That is why I believe your clinic should have looked more heavily into the intent of such a community rather than jumping on Dr. Goertz's train so readily.

 

That is all I'll say on the matter.

 

What I DO hope for, however, is that you will encourage your patients (and maybe some of your staff) to post more regularly on this community with patient results. Other than Pat's visitation to your clinic, I have not seen any recent results from your clinic.

 

Preferably, I personally would like to see more results posted by your patients than your staff...but surely, it can be useful for the ocassional result also to be posted by your clinic directly.

 

We hope to see and hear more from you as time goes by.

 

Thank you for your honesty,

 

Bill

[Guest Brad Limmer, MD]

Pat: Bill: Jotronic: The B Spot: MRJB, etc.

 

Please reference my post by Jessica on May 18. I have read the full thread and it does not change what I know to be true. Doctors have discussed an independent website since 1993, the first year of the ISHRS, for dissemination of information. This was the concept behind the site proposed by Dr. Goertz and unfortunately it got off to an inauspicious start due to negative statements regarding other sites. It was in concept to be simply another forum for discussion or as I told Pat, another yellow pages or another talk show. The physicians listed had not met or formulated a set of rules or principles ??“ this was to occur at some future time. This is now all history and whether such an effort will ever again be initiated is questionable. None of the doctors involved had "deep involvement" as has been stated repeatedly on the HTN.

There are some other points I would like to address both on general professional levels and on my personal levels.

First, physicians are frequently attacked here and elsewhere for failing to police other physicians. You need to understand that nothing is more irritating to ethical physicians than to see poor quality work or to see patients taken advantage of. The unfortunate fact is that policing of other physicians must fall under the legal guidelines of the Federal Trade Commission which allows for very broad liberties in the field of advertising and under the rules of the professional societies or the State Boards of Medical Examiners who post the rules for ethical conduct. Individuals both lay public and physicians alike must go through these societies whose total power is revocation of membership or censorship or through the State Boards. As a layman you have far greater freedom to attack than does the professional. I will tell you that both censorship and suspension of physician membership have occurred through the ISHRS Ethics committee efforts. These do not make headlines or talk forums, but efforts to keep ethics at as high a level as possible have been and are alive at the ISHRS contrary to what you may feel.

Secondly, I find it quite unprofessional to be repeatedly attacked with such endearing statements as "Bobby Limmer may have invented FUT but that is about where he left it", "I guess he pretty much got passed up, huh", "people exist online who are not doctor whose opinions carry more weight with hair loss sufferers than Limmer ever did or will" and others. I don't understand 2 things about such negativity ??“ first, those making such blanket accusations have never met me, visited our clinic or spoken with our patients. Secondly, what does such unbased and false diatribe contribute to the advancement of the field or patient welfare? I am not going to defend myself because I have no need to do so ??“ our practice is fully booked for 3 months or more in advance almost totally by patients referring friends and family members. There must be a message in that alone. As far as my professional abilities are concerned, ask Dr. Shapiro, Keene, Wong, Hasson, True, or any of the other doctors on Pat's site.

Have a great day!

[Aquarius]

Get the vasoline and a saline drip...

Put your affiliations in your sig.

I'm your hucklberry...

[the B spot]

Secondly, I find it quite unprofessional to be repeatedly attacked with such endearing statements as "Bobby Limmer may have invented FUT but that is about where he left it", "I guess he pretty much got passed up, huh", "people exist online who are not doctor whose opinions carry more weight with hair loss sufferers than Limmer ever did or will" and others. I don't understand 2 things about such negativity ??“ first, those making such blanket accusations have never met me, visited our clinic or spoken with our patients.

 

Since those are my comments, I will assume this is pointed at me... allow me to offer a rebuttal.

 

First off, you have a flamer (Perfect Few) posting as if he is the employee of the website, of which your doc is a member.

 

Secondly, while I really like Dr. Limmer and I feel he does very solid work, there are HT docs who are pushing the envelope and improving session sizes, reducing incision sizes, improving closures, mixing incision types, increasing staff, updating technology, etc....

 

Thirdly, your clinic performs surgery on more than one patient per day and your techicians create recipient sites and place most of the grafts. I understand your staff is controlled by Dr Limmer, but many people are uncomfortable with the "technician stick and place" surgery.

 

Last, I really like how you can determine my comments were negative, when your clinic was completely at fault here due to the relationship with the website and Dr. Goertz.

MHR and Bosley offices are booked in advance as well, so your full office carries no weight.

Dr. Limmer provided a great advancement to the field---10 years ago---- it's ok to transplant in excess of 35-40 fu's cm/2, it's ok to do more than 2500 grafts in one session, and I suggest you REALLY spend some more time reading through the forums and understand the level of education that is passed along these days.

 

I find some of your comments to be arrogant and un-informed, especially in the face of what has recently transpired. If your clinic is so full, why continue to be part of this site? Why not continue your relationship with the other site?

 

My comments were not attacks, but observations in response to a poster affiliated with YOUR site. The only way they can be construed as attacks is if they are true.

 

Dr. Limmer does solid work and while I recommend the Limmer clinic for those unwilling to travel out of Texas, the automated process employed at your clinic is not something I am a fan of.

 

Note to all.. I hold Dr. Limmer in the highest regard, regardless of my comments as to his clinics procedures and status within the industry. However, regardless of the respect I have for Dr. Limmer, I will not post something other than what I believe.

 

Aquarius--- Please remove your B**** comment in your first response to Jessica--- that is uncalled for and will not be allowed. Regardless of our differences of opinion, you can't post that to her.

 

Take Care,

J

[Bill - Seemiller]

Aquarius,

 

Your response to Jessica was a bit harsh and unnecessary. As B Spot requested, please edit your post. I believe we can have an intellectual debate without mud slinging. Let's keep it that way brother .

 

Jessica,

 

One thing you have to remember is this is a patient driven forum. Whereas B Spot's posts may seem negative to you, it is his opinion and he is entitled to it.

 

Your PAST affiliation with the Anti-Hair Transplant Network had a lot of cause for question. I could list them if you want me to, but I think that's all been covered. The point is, your clinic has recanted, and I'm good with that. I do encourage your clinic, however, next time to research so you understand in what you are involving yourselves.

 

I agree with your assessment of ethical physicians. Clearly these physicians care about the patient's well being and are angry at doctors who do poor work.

 

The problem, however, with a doctor run website is that who is really holding who accountable? Do you really think Dr. Goertz was going to allow any negative reviews of his work posted on a forum that he owned? In fact, Pat's post was removed about 5 days after it was posted which included an immediately post op picture of grafts spaced far apart using larger tools to create incisions. Certainly there were ethical physicians that were blindly sponsoring that site...and that was the call to question.

 

Anyway...in my eyes, it's all in the past.

 

The best way to build up any potential broken rapport on this forum is by taking the time to post your clinic's work, pictures(before/progression/after pictures), graft/hair counts, etc.

 

Bill

[Pat - Community Publisher]

The Dr. Goertz Old Boy's Network.com debacle shows that many physicians still don't understand the dynamics of this community or the open Web. Anyone can make a "Doctors List". But a list is only credible based on how it is forumulated and maintained based on real patient results, clinic inspections, high technical standards etc.

 

The vast majority of hair transplant physicians do not read this forum or any hair loss forum. However, they do discuss them and have even had dedicated closed door meetings at the ISHRS conferences to discuss what to do about them. Thus you have doctors forming their opinions about this community based on second hand information and out of context posts that are presented to them by critics of this community.

 

Careless, glib or unfairly harsh comments made by posters are ammunition for the critics of this community.

 

Aquarius, I did not read your original post until after it was edited. But while it's easy for you to make glib two line comments, it's me and this community that have to deal with the fallout when physicians fixate on such comments and discuss them outside the context of the overall constructive nature of this forum.

 

B - Spot, while I know this whole "Old Boy's Network.com" debacle has been upsetting, I don't think your characterization of Dr. Limmer's office is completely fair or accurate based on what I have seen and the patient feedback that I have gotten. I do agree that they are long over due to get more involved with this community and that they should consider increasing the size and density of their sessions. But I do believe that their current work is extremely refined and yeilds excellent growth rates at very modest rates.

 

You can certainly express your opinion. But as a senior member of this community please be aware of how your comments and posts can and probally will be discussed out of context between physicians. It is such controversy that led physicians to support Dr. Goertz's negative old boys network.com to begin with.

 

This community has served both patients and leading physicians very well for several years now. But this community needs to be fair to both patients and physicians. This can be a delicate balancing act at times.

 

I ask that members of this community keep this in mind when making future posts.

 

Thank you in advance for considering the consequences of your posts. Pat

 

P.S. The 600 plus hair transplant physician members of the ISHRS have had a quality website for several years at www.ishrs.org that presents all its members - regardless of their experience, skills or ethics. This ISHRS site also is not antagonistic to this community or any other patient based websites.

 

Dr. Goertz's site turned out to be any thing but "simply another site for patient information". If such an insulting site that is antagonistic to patient based open communities re-emerges once again - ignorance of its content and intend will not be an acceptable excuse next time.

[the B spot]

Ok Pat--- I say again, I really have no issues with Dr Limmer other than a few methodology issues.

 

Much of my commentary was directed in response to Perfect Few, but two things you and the others who know me should realize------

 

1. I am happy to discuss anything with anyone anywhere.... MD or not.

 

2. I will recant or admit wrong/inconsiderate posts if proven wrong.

 

Pat, I know you are working hard to keep this site the great work that it is..... far be it from me to do anything to hinder it's growth.

 

Anyway, it seems that a few of my comments are inflammatory.... they were not meant in that manner..... However.... I really think that Jessica's comments are slightly out of touch and warranted a response.

 

Again, in reviewing the ENTIRE thread, I would like to extend an apology for expressing my comments about Dr. Limmer--- He does solid work for a very reasonable cost. It is not a matter of truth or un-truth, but perhaps some commentary is better left between a few and not the many.

 

Should my comments warrant any additional attention, my phone number is available for all who ask.

 

Take Care,

J

[Pat - Community Publisher]

B-Spot,

 

Thanks for your clarification. Given the inflamatory nature of Dr. Goertz's site and Perfect Few's hostile posts on our forum I can understand your posts.

 

Just to clarify, it appears that Dr. Limmer has been writing his comments and then Jessica has been posting them to this topic. Thus since Dr. Limmer is not an active member of this forum his comments do not have the perspective of an active forum member who knows the overall forum and its members.

 

I hope and expect that we will all be able to focus more in the future on helping others rather than dealing with politics. I know that helping others with frank advice and insight has been one of your strong points B Spot.

 

Best wishes, Pat

[Aquarius]

Although it might have been glib that was my point.

I edited out of respect.