Doctors bypassing your input

[Jotronic]

Gentlemen,

 

Over the years the hair transplant industry has been rocked on it's ear by the contributions of the patients that have fed it. Patients taking dozens of photographs, building personal websites, and sharing personal testimony have sent a wake up call to clinics that do great work and those that do not so great work. This wake up call has helped to propel the standard of care to levels not seen in days past. I dare say the past five years have seen more improvement in patient care and results than the previous thirty years prior. Doctors have been held accountable for their abilities for all the public to see, whether they like it or not.

 

Website organizations like the Coalition and the IAHRS, where doctors are invited to answer patient questions, share their clinical results, and open their respective practice's for public scrutiny, have been the perfect vehicle to unite patients from all over the world. Without these sites, there would be no real central depository for us to band together and make our voices heard. Some clinics have embraced this, others have shunned it. Sure, there are fees involved to be officially recognized but these fees are readily disclosed and are necessary for the sites to be run full time. Fees aside, the work is what is judged as a common denominator for inclusion on lists of recommendation. Some will have differing opinions on who should be on these respective lists but for the most part they are a good thing to have as a starting point of reference. Both patients sharing results and organizations such as the Coalition and the IAHRS have helped to separate the good docs from those that cannot or will not step up to the challenge of improving patient care. Love 'em or hate 'em, these two "lists" have a lot of docs running into the shadows.

 

There are clinics that would have us believe that we as laypersons are not qualified to know what is good work and what is not. These clinics would have us believe that our dissatisfaction is due to our ignorance of the medical procedures that we have undergone and that our results that some can say are sub-par are due only to the fact that we expect too much. In addition, some doctors would have you believe that even though Pat, Spencer and Farrel are literally begging them to join their organizations they do not only because they do not wish to pay any "outrageous" fees thus explaining away their lack of participation in any forums. What they are not telling you is that they either applied and were turned down or were members at one time and got the boot.

 

Today, I was informed of a new website that serves to bypass the established lists of recommended physicians that we have all come to know and depend on. On the outside, it looks like any other hair loss website trying to grab it's share of your attention. However, once the shovel is pulled out we see what lies beneath.

 

www.hairlossdoctorlist.com

 

A simple whois search reveals the source...

 

Registrant:

Goertz, Brian

 

ATTN: HAIRLOSSDOCTORLIST.COM

c/o Network Solutions

P.O. Box 447

Herndon, VA 20172-0447

 

Domain Name: HAIRLOSSDOCTORLIST.COM

 

Administrative Contact :

Goertz, Brian

wf3sf4he2zh@networksolutionsprivateregistration.com

ATTN: HAIRLOSSDOCTORLIST.COM

c/o Network Solutions

P.O. Box 447

Herndon, VA 20172-0447

Phone: 570-708-8780

 

Technical Contact :

Goertz, Brian

wf3sf4he2zh@networksolutionsprivateregistration.com

ATTN: HAIRLOSSDOCTORLIST.COM

c/o Network Solutions

P.O. Box 447

Herndon, VA 20172-0447

Phone: 570-708-8780

 

Record expires on 30-Nov-2009

Record created on 30-Nov-2006

Database last updated on 30-Nov-2006

 

After reviewing the guidelines for membership we have some interesting points.

 

Reasons to be a Member of Hair Loss Doctor List:

 

5. Truth in Advertising: Many are aware of the organizations that paint themselves as "patient advocacy sites" that will promote hair transplant surgeons for an unrealistic fee. Being part of an ethical informational organization will decrease your dependency on these organizations that prey upon your industry and ultimately improve the promotional integrity of the hair transplant industry.

 

What better truth in advertising is there than showing your great results and having patients post their experiences? What better truth than having independent organizations helping patients to match up with docs that deliver? What better truth is there than making your clinic transparent? The complaint above includes mention of memberhip fees to be included on lists yet they themselves also charge a fee... Hair Loss Doctors List has simple criteria to be listed and Physicians pay a modest fee to be listed.

 

6. Ethical Standards: Hair Loss Doctor List will maintain high ethical standards and will not tolerate unethical behavior in the Forum. For example blogging or posting by paid employees or independent contractors of a hair transplant physician/practice which is been prevalent on other sites and is highly unethical and will not be tolerated here.

 

I'd like to know what the difference is between posting by consultants and posting by doctors. This is saying that most of YOU, the participants in this and other forums, are actually employees in disguise. Why? Because you are passionate about your results and the clinic that gave them to you.

 

Here are a couple of the criteria listed for membership.

 

1.) Member must be a member in good standing of the ISHRS for a minimum of 3 years.

 

Why? What influence could this have?

 

2.) Must practice within the United States of America.

 

Now this one is interesting. The ISHRS includes membership that is international to a heavy degree yet these non-US clinics are excluded from membership in this organization. One must ask why.

 

In summary, what this site is doing is trying to bypass accountability by placing themselves (the doctor membership) in charge of what is considered to be acceptable work rather than allowing you the patient to make this judgment for yourself. I'm sorry but this site and a few other "independent" sites dominated by YOU the patients are what has changed the industry undoubtedly for the better and are the ONLY reason why I, as a hair transplant repair patient first and foremost, was able to repair the pluggy, unsightly mini-grafts from years ago. It was because of CONSULTANT, not because of what a doctor told me because it was a doctor that got me into hair loss trouble to begin with.

 

Understand that this does not affect me in a professional manner. It does affect me in a personal manner and I feel it is important for you guys to know what some doctors really think about being transparent to you, the public.

[Jotronic]

Gentlemen,

 

Over the years the hair transplant industry has been rocked on it's ear by the contributions of the patients that have fed it. Patients taking dozens of photographs, building personal websites, and sharing personal testimony have sent a wake up call to clinics that do great work and those that do not so great work. This wake up call has helped to propel the standard of care to levels not seen in days past. I dare say the past five years have seen more improvement in patient care and results than the previous thirty years prior. Doctors have been held accountable for their abilities for all the public to see, whether they like it or not.

 

Website organizations like the Coalition and the IAHRS, where doctors are invited to answer patient questions, share their clinical results, and open their respective practice's for public scrutiny, have been the perfect vehicle to unite patients from all over the world. Without these sites, there would be no real central depository for us to band together and make our voices heard. Some clinics have embraced this, others have shunned it. Sure, there are fees involved to be officially recognized but these fees are readily disclosed and are necessary for the sites to be run full time. Fees aside, the work is what is judged as a common denominator for inclusion on lists of recommendation. Some will have differing opinions on who should be on these respective lists but for the most part they are a good thing to have as a starting point of reference. Both patients sharing results and organizations such as the Coalition and the IAHRS have helped to separate the good docs from those that cannot or will not step up to the challenge of improving patient care. Love 'em or hate 'em, these two "lists" have a lot of docs running into the shadows.

 

There are clinics that would have us believe that we as laypersons are not qualified to know what is good work and what is not. These clinics would have us believe that our dissatisfaction is due to our ignorance of the medical procedures that we have undergone and that our results that some can say are sub-par are due only to the fact that we expect too much. In addition, some doctors would have you believe that even though Pat, Spencer and Farrel are literally begging them to join their organizations they do not only because they do not wish to pay any "outrageous" fees thus explaining away their lack of participation in any forums. What they are not telling you is that they either applied and were turned down or were members at one time and got the boot.

 

Today, I was informed of a new website that serves to bypass the established lists of recommended physicians that we have all come to know and depend on. On the outside, it looks like any other hair loss website trying to grab it's share of your attention. However, once the shovel is pulled out we see what lies beneath.

 

www.hairlossdoctorlist.com

 

A simple whois search reveals the source...

 

Registrant:

Goertz, Brian

 

ATTN: HAIRLOSSDOCTORLIST.COM

c/o Network Solutions

P.O. Box 447

Herndon, VA 20172-0447

 

Domain Name: HAIRLOSSDOCTORLIST.COM

 

Administrative Contact :

Goertz, Brian

wf3sf4he2zh@networksolutionsprivateregistration.com

ATTN: HAIRLOSSDOCTORLIST.COM

c/o Network Solutions

P.O. Box 447

Herndon, VA 20172-0447

Phone: 570-708-8780

 

Technical Contact :

Goertz, Brian

wf3sf4he2zh@networksolutionsprivateregistration.com

ATTN: HAIRLOSSDOCTORLIST.COM

c/o Network Solutions

P.O. Box 447

Herndon, VA 20172-0447

Phone: 570-708-8780

 

Record expires on 30-Nov-2009

Record created on 30-Nov-2006

Database last updated on 30-Nov-2006

 

After reviewing the guidelines for membership we have some interesting points.

 

Reasons to be a Member of Hair Loss Doctor List:

 

5. Truth in Advertising: Many are aware of the organizations that paint themselves as "patient advocacy sites" that will promote hair transplant surgeons for an unrealistic fee. Being part of an ethical informational organization will decrease your dependency on these organizations that prey upon your industry and ultimately improve the promotional integrity of the hair transplant industry.

 

What better truth in advertising is there than showing your great results and having patients post their experiences? What better truth than having independent organizations helping patients to match up with docs that deliver? What better truth is there than making your clinic transparent? The complaint above includes mention of memberhip fees to be included on lists yet they themselves also charge a fee... Hair Loss Doctors List has simple criteria to be listed and Physicians pay a modest fee to be listed.

 

6. Ethical Standards: Hair Loss Doctor List will maintain high ethical standards and will not tolerate unethical behavior in the Forum. For example blogging or posting by paid employees or independent contractors of a hair transplant physician/practice which is been prevalent on other sites and is highly unethical and will not be tolerated here.

 

I'd like to know what the difference is between posting by consultants and posting by doctors. This is saying that most of YOU, the participants in this and other forums, are actually employees in disguise. Why? Because you are passionate about your results and the clinic that gave them to you.

 

Here are a couple of the criteria listed for membership.

 

1.) Member must be a member in good standing of the ISHRS for a minimum of 3 years.

 

Why? What influence could this have?

 

2.) Must practice within the United States of America.

 

Now this one is interesting. The ISHRS includes membership that is international to a heavy degree yet these non-US clinics are excluded from membership in this organization. One must ask why.

 

In summary, what this site is doing is trying to bypass accountability by placing themselves (the doctor membership) in charge of what is considered to be acceptable work rather than allowing you the patient to make this judgment for yourself. I'm sorry but this site and a few other "independent" sites dominated by YOU the patients are what has changed the industry undoubtedly for the better and are the ONLY reason why I, as a hair transplant repair patient first and foremost, was able to repair the pluggy, unsightly mini-grafts from years ago. It was because of CONSULTANT, not because of what a doctor told me because it was a doctor that got me into hair loss trouble to begin with.

 

Understand that this does not affect me in a professional manner. It does affect me in a personal manner and I feel it is important for you guys to know what some doctors really think about being transparent to you, the public.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Wow Joe,

 

What an awesome and informative post.

 

I agree that membershipo such as the Coalition and the IAHRS that are PATIENT driven work for the good of everyone....primarily the patient (which is the point). Of course, in order to keep these communities running, the doctors pay a fee into these membershipos and there is certainly nothing wrong with that. These communities could NOT exist without funding, after all.

 

And as you say...just because these communities collect funding, does NOT mean that they are banging the door down of every clinic in the world to join. In fact...it's quite the opposite. Some clinics have applied for membership and have been rejected because they have not met the higher standards that these memberships call for. Sadly...these clinics will lie about it and state that they just didn't want to pay the fee, but that they are asked regularly to join. Their lies are highly unethical. Unfortunately, uninformed patients may just buy it.

 

These memberships, therefore, end up promoting the elite physicians and exposing the hack jobs and unexperienced as patients share their real life experiences. That's EXACTLY how it should be. The word "promotion" here is NOT a bad thing as sometimes this word has a negative connotation. But patient excitement about their results, sharing their experiences and pictures become undisputable. As a result, these public postings draw more people to these clinics. Isn't this a good thing? Absolutely. The whole point of these communities is to educate fellow hair loss sufferers who are seeking REAL answers and assist them in making decisions that is BEST for them. If hair transplantation is an option...wouldn't we want to see these people go to the best? Absolutely! Would anyone out of good conscious direct a perspective patient to a doctor who has done sub-par work? I would certainly hope NOT!

 

In this day and age...there is no excuse for doctors who do sub-par work, and I believe strongly, that doctor's who are using older technology and leaving people with a pluggy unnatural look should lose their medical license.

 

I certainly understand how this impacts you personally and not professionally...I have the same passion you have...to advocate patient rights - seeing patients get the best result possible.

 

I will certainly have to poke around this hairlossdoctrolist site when I have a chance.

 

Thanks for the heads up Joe. You are a fountain of information . Keep up the good work.

 

Bill

[Pat - Community Publisher]

Joe and Bill - Right on!

 

The hypocrisy of physicians garnering patients from this online community while supporting a physician based website that denounces the right of patients to hold them accountable is deplorable in my opinion.

 

Before communities like this existed patients had no recourse, legal or otherwise, if and when they got poor results. But today patients have the resources available to be empowered.

 

Today the educated patient is in the driver's seat and demanding and getting the very best work possible. On this community physicians need to walk the talk to earn the respect and business of patients.

 

This new "old boys club" website is yet another reactionary attempt by certain physicians to take patients out of the drivers seat and put them back in the back seat for the ride. They'd prefer the good old days when patients could not hold them accountable and where the information flowed from the "expert" M.D. down to the lay patient.

 

I have been attacked and sued many times over the years by hair transplant physicians who hate the existence of this community and what it stands for. Yet this community has not only survived these attacks but thrived. Why? Because it empowers the person who really matters most - the patient.

 

Many of the best physicians and clinics have had the wisdom to understand that they do not need to fear open and free discussions by patients and potential patients. In fact, those whose end results do hold up under close examination earn a steady stream of educated patients and one Hell of a lot of money. Other physicians continue to see patient forums as a threat to their industry/profession.

 

So I ask the members of this community - should we continue recommending physicians on this community who support a website that has contempt for this forum and the right of patients to freely share their experiences and opinions?

 

In my opinion, such hypocrisy is unacceptable and must not be allowed to stand. I think it's time to find out where physicians really stand.

 

The membership standards for the Coalition make it clear that physicians are expected to operate in a transparent and accountable manner (see below excerpt from the Coalition "Membership Standards" page).

 

Coalition Standards - Section - Physician Accountability

 

"Membership in the Coalition requires members to maintain a high degree of patient satisfaction. Members care for their patients knowing that their patients are free to post their experiences on the popular Hair Restoration Discussion Forum.

 

On this open forum patients are free to critique physicians and to hold them accountable for their actions. This forum is run and moderated by hair restoration patients.

 

In such a transparent environment our members are held publicly accountable for their actions and results. Members who fail to meet the high technical and ethical membership standards set by the Coalition are removed from the group.

 

However, we ask that patients first give their physician the opportunity to satisfy their concerns privately before posting any public criticisms on the discussion forum.

 

If the issue is not resolved to the patient's satisfaction they are encouraged to contact the Coalition by email at service@HairLossLearningCenter.org

 

Member clinics also agree to open their clinics up to inspection. Many of these inspections have been reported on the Hair Restoration Discussion Forum. View some of these clinic visits."

 

This is our contract with the doctors we promote on this community. In return for our business we require excellent results and accountability.

 

Shouldn't we all expect them to honor it?

 

P.S. If you'd like to see an example of one of Dr. Goertz's patients who posted his immediate post ops on this forum, click here. After viewing this photo I expect you will understand why Dr. Goertz is not recommended on this community.

 

You may also gain an understanding as to why Dr. Goertz deplores this forum and has undertaken publishing a site that is openly contemptuous of this forum and others (i.e. If you can't join them beat them.)

[Pat - Community Publisher]

Since Dr. Goertz intends to run a forum that is free from the terrible abuses that plague this forum I paid his forum a visit.

 

The forum looked very lonely so I decided to post the following:

 

Subject - Photo of a Dr. Goertz patient

 

Welcome to the world of hosting a discussion forum.

 

As a forum moderator you will soon have to decide whether you are going to run a truly open forum or a censored forum that deletes posts or posters who present information that you are not comfortable with.

 

For example, the photo in the below link is of a patient of Dr. Goertz's. It was posted by one of his patients on a respected hair transplant discussion forum. Will you delete it and this post because it demonstrates a very invasive surgery that resulted in coblestoning and sparse growth?

 

Or can you deal in reality and reply to it? I expect you will soon be pressing the delete button. But please, prove me wrong.

 

Link to patient's immediate post op photo http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums?a=displayal...eshow&x_startwith=19

 

Best wishes to you in running a forum that is free from the inconvenient truths that visit all forums.

 

Pat Hennessey, Publisher of the Hair Transplant Network.com

 

If you'd like to visit this topic visit http://www.hairlossdoctorlist.com/Forums/tabid/53/forum...w/topic/Default.aspx

 

P.S. If you hurry you may be able to reply before they delete the post and my posting account.

[Guest HLBD]

I cannot be the only one that is a little disappointed that a quality doctor like Dr. Limmer woudl be involved in such a site. I would suggest he leave and never return. Some publicity you just don't need.

[Hans - Webmaster]

Here's the thing.. Given that this is a very "real" community and is probably one of the most accessable resources on the Internet, as far as comments, suggestions, commendations etc. goes, I see little, if any, benefit from this new site.

 

This - and a handfull of others - site has real influence over where potential patients go for treatment, or simply get some good advice. I have seen many sites pop up to try and emulate what the Hair Transplant Network (and the Coalition) has succeeded in doing - empowering and educating potential patients.

 

Some of them have been blatent replicas, others have loosely disguised themselves as psuedo "membership clubs" - none of them have really embraced the community as has this site and it's affiliated sites.

 

Not many of the members know me, some do - quite well - and I have been involved with the creating of Pat's sites since 2001, when it was really a showcase of how pleased (that's putting it mildly) he was with his hair transplant by Dr. Ron Shapiro. I won't bore you with the details of the progression, but what exists today is something that Pat is hugely proud of and I also have a sense of "ownership" when I see how many people have actively participated in the "family" of sites that know exist.

 

There may be some members of this "family" that have choosen to belong to this new site, however, they are very much still part of things here and it is really time that will tell how much influence the "hair loss doctors list" will have in this field.

 

I say let them stay on here and not put pressure on them. I think that they will very soon see that they will enjoy far greater results by being part of THIS family than by joining some other.

 

Interestingly, Dr Goertz was a member of the Hair Transplant Network some time back, but have no recollection as to why he no longer is a member, must be something that someone said at some stage.

 

Enjoy what you have for as long as you can.

 

Hans

[Bayer]

Here goes some paranoid thinking.

 

Goertz is in reasonable geographic proximity of H & W. No Canadian doctors are permitted on the new site.

 

Is the H & W quality killing Goertz's business and is this his attempt at retaliation?

 

Bayer

[the B spot]

I registered on the site and I plan to engage in discourse there.

 

I know EXACTLY why Dr. Goertz is no longer a member here.

 

There are a couple of very well respected HT docs that are sponsoring this site, namely. Dr. Cooley, Dr. Limmer, Dr. Harris and Dr. Nusbaum.

 

What is confusing to me is all of the effort that is being put into this site, when the PERFECT vehicle for displaying their work is right here on the HTN?

 

My impression of this site is docs who do not wish to enter the internet realm and be exposed for "average/good" work when other docs are much better, unless it is in a very controlled, safe environment. (aside from the 4 docs I mentioned)

 

For those who think I am rude, overly-passionate, and too aggressive at times.... this is the reason.

 

Some docs want to hide behind paperwork and do not wish to be exposed if something goes wrong, poor growth, etc....

 

Kudos to the Docs who take on the challenge of the internet and possess the strength of character to continually push forward and put the PATIENT first.

 

We shall see

J

 

ps. Any bets on how long until my membership is revoked---- I want in

[hairbank]

Jotronic (and others)-

 

Thanks so much for disclosing this information. If Dr. Goertz is producing the kind of work that was shown in the pic Pat posted, I can understand why he needs to "self-promote".

 

I am disappointed in seeing that some of our own Coalition Surgeons are opting to be represented by this site. Why would they have interest in joining it? I'm not sure I would take the stance that since they've opted to endorse the other site that they should not be recommended here. I believe that decision should solely be based on their character and quality of work as shown and determined by their former patients with results displayed here and experiences shared.

 

I did join the other site and post a few comments............we'll see if I get the axe.

 

The whole idea is kind of like a Car Dealer writing a review of their own product then posting it in Consumer Reports as gospel.

[Guest]

This is a well educated community & the members here call it like we see it. It is difficult for subpar surgeons to stand up to the scrutiny they face here. Even the top coaltion Doc's are scrutinized, however they withstand the storm in the face of sometimes harsh criticism because they don't run & hide, they answer the qusetions, graft count, scar closures & everything eles we can throw at them. They know thier results must be up to par with thier peer's who are the best Hair transplant surgeons in the world. Otherwise, they cannot exist here!

I believe Doctors should be able to be a member of other HT forums even if that forum founder deplores this forum. It is thier choice. However, the rules still apply to remain a member of this forum.

[Pat - Community Publisher]

Folica,

 

I do agree that physicians have every right to promote themselves as individuals or as collective groups outside of this community.

 

However, the ISHRS (International Society of Hair Restoration Surgery), which is open to all physicians regardless of the quality of their work, already has a useful website at www.ishrs.org with all of its 500 plus physician members presented.

 

However, unlike Dr. Goertz's online hair club for doctors, the ISHRS web site was not created to denegrate this and other patient based forums and sites.

 

I would expect this kind of self promotion from the many physicians who can't pass muster on real patient based forums. But from Coalition members?

 

I will be asking these members some very hard questions in the near future.

[hairbank]

Pat-

 

I understand what you are saying. I think the first question that should be asked of them is "Why did you join the other site?"

 

If they are producing quality work and have membership here, I'm not sure what the motive would be for them to join. Do they need more business? Are they trying to expand their practices? Maybe they can shed light on this to the members here so we understand.

[Guest]

Pat, I must admit I would be disappointed if My Doctor joined that forum that is published by Doctors. So I do see your point.

 

I love this forum, it got me to the point I am at now while bypassing many mistakes that I could have made & many other fellow hair loss sufferers have made. I would hate to see people led down the road of No return from an inferior

Hairtransplant based on info from a Hairloss help forum...

That don't happen here. If it does you ( Pat )

take action. Will that happen on a Doctor promoted forum??

 

Respectfully,

[Bayer]

Pat,

 

I would be very interested to know why Coalition doctors would sully their own reputations by being on the same site as the doctor (Goertz) who produced the work which you shared this morning.

 

There may be something I am not seeing here, but this does not make sense from what I perceive their "business" point of view might be.

 

Bayer

[Bill - Seemiller]

Pat and all,

 

should we continue recommending physicians on this community who support a website that has contempt for this forum and the right of patients to freely share their experiences and opinions?

 

 

My answer is NO....we should not, regardless of their reasoning. I have a serious problem with this and think it's extremely hypocritical if these doctors support another site that show contempt for what this community stands for, which is ultimately patients rights.

 

There is no reason for QUALITY doctors to become a part of such a community...as B Spot said...why are they putting their energy into a site that demotes patient rights when they could they could be using this and other sites that promote patients rights as a vehicle to show their work?

 

Anyway...I don't we should tolerate this from coalition/recommended doctors

 

Bill

[Dr. Alan Feller]

HT doctors have been ducking the internet for years- looking for any and every excuse not to have to participate.

 

Most of them know their work is substandard compared to those doctors who encourage their patients to post photos of every aspect of their procedures.

 

Rather than improve their work, they try to tear down the forums used to display other doctor's work. It is so transparent.

 

I have been attacked by other doctors who've critisized my use of the web to display my results. They think it is "wrong" but can never articulate why. Interesting isn't it?

 

Anyone with a medical degree and the due's fee can be an ISHRS member. It is meaningless as far as merit goes. Any doctor who honestly believes their work is superior should have no problem allowing themselves to be scrutinized DAILY on the web. If a doctor resists this, then you know where he/she feel's they really rank in the pack.

[the B spot]

You know, I find some of the language used in the "Qualifying Physicians Mantra" is confusing.

 

They are really focused on Doctors doing their own consults and not having anyone paid by the clinic posting online, due to a "conflict of interest"

 

Obviously there is a webmaster and a forum moderator, so who is paying these guys?

 

If the docs are paying these people, isn't that a conflict of interest?

 

If someone posts something negative about one of the docs and it gets deleted or censored by the moderator, where does that fall?

 

This is a VERY irritating and condescending group of individuals, IMO.

 

When I spoke with Dr. Limmer, he said that his clinic did not have the time or inclination to post results, due to a high volume of business.

 

Right now, I have lost a bit of the respect I held for this clinic, due to their association with this website, and the arrogance that pervades their writings and their blind assertion that the ISHRS is somehow a measuring stick of physician ability and merit.

 

The ISHRS is an organization that is designed to share and debate techniques, etc... and is not and never will be the measuring stick of physician accountability. Take a look at some of the people who are members of this organization. Hmmmm.

 

I would have more respect for this site if these docs stepped up and said that they had set up a panel or review committee that contained both physicians and lay-people to determine eligibility for the membership.

 

Hair Transplantation is not rocket science, and people who are not medically trained can learn enough about the methodology to comment on various techniques and results.

 

I am confident that several members of this forum could walk into any clinic, view a surgery, talk to patients and make a very solid recommendation.

 

I sense the underlying driving force behind this is FEAR. Fear of the internet, Fear of change, Fear of poor results being exposed, and most importantly, Fear of uncensored free speech by informed lay-people.

 

I think other hairloss sites are a tremendous help to many sufferers, so under those auspices another site is certainly a step in that direction.

 

However, my doctor, Dr. Ron Shapiro is not eligible for membership on this site.

 

Why? Because he uses an extremely patient orientated consultant to lay the groundwork for the patients wants and needs.

 

I can tell you unequivocably that he is head and shoulded above every doc that is either a member or will become a member there.

 

So in that case, is the site dedicated to steering patients to the BEST doc possible?

 

Or is this site dedicated to re-bolstering the ego's and reputations of stuck-in-the-mud-once held-as-industry-leader Docs who simply cannot or will not embrace new innovative techniques and are actually doing patients a disservice?

 

What would I know anyway.....

J

[hairbank]

As usual, B spot, I think your "spot on" with your comments.

 

I'm still not sure at this point, not knowing why some of our recommended Docs would choose to support this site, whether or not I would recommend their recommendation by HTN be removed. I really hope Pat has one-on-one discussion with each of the Docs............namely Drs. Bernstein, Cooley, Harris, Limmer & Nusbaum, to determine why they are supporting the site.

 

The sad part is that I believe our Coalition Docs who are supporting this site have proven they do quality work. Again, I hope Pat can shed light as to why they might have chosen to support what, to me, is clearly seems to be an attempt by a sub-par surgeon to control information provided to those suffering hairloss.

[Bill - Seemiller]

It looks like we are all on the same page. I'll be looking forward to the responses from these surgeons to Pat's difficult questions...and difficult they should be. I think they seriously need to answer why they would sponsor and support such a forum.

 

I appreciate Joe shedding this to light, Pat's immediate action, Dr. Feller's support of our community, and the dedicated members of this community's passion on this issue.

 

Bill

[Al - Moderator]

Here's my view.

 

I'm in agreement with everyone here IN THEORY... meaning I think it's a bad idea to support or want a competing site and forum to exist that's run and supported by doctors who can't get recommended here.

 

HOWEVER, here are the problems with that IN REALITY.

 

1. Those forums were almost totally empty until some of you here started posting on it the other day after it got mentioned by Jotronic. If you feel it's not right to support such a forum, then why are you? You're supporting it by making valid posts which will make the site valid. You're hurting your own cause. If a newbie looking for hair loss answers finds a hairloss forum in a web search and that site is pretty bare, the person will most likely move on to find another more active site. But if there's posts there, he will stay and ask questions and seek answers. We should monitor the site to see how things go, but should stay away from posting and making it a site that people start seeking answers on.

 

2. If you feel it's not right for the doctors listed on this site to support a doctor sponsored site, then again I have to ask... why do you feel it's OK for YOU to support such a site by posting there.

 

3. Any successful business is successful partly because they make themselves known in the community and have a presence there. If the other forum eventually has a lot of doctors and many potential patient vistors, shouldn't the doctors here reasonably be expected to make themselves known to visitors of the site?

 

4. By trying to force the best doctors off of a certain forum, aren't you contributing to the visitors of that forum getting ONLY recommendations from the bad doctors who are listed there? It sounds like you want to make the other site exactly what you say you don't want it to be. That is... butcher/hairmill doctors convincing visitors that their work is great. Visitors can only compare what is available to them. If you only make bad doctors available to them then you HAVE to expect that they'll be going to the bad doctors you say you don't support. I say get the best docs on that site and their great work will continue to outshine the bad docs who are trying to outsmart us.

[NervousNelly]

Guys,

 

What a topic!! I agree with the statements that all of you have made and look forward to some responses from the docs that choose to support such a website. I think that Dr. Feller stated it best when he said it is so "transparent".

 

Obviously, fear is what is motivating such a site. They want to limit as much patient education as possible and also try to monopolize a section of the market. They are attempting to limit those physicians that use consultants--which just so happens to be some of the top physicians in the industry. They also are trying to exclude Canadian physicians which at the present time, also happen to be some of the top physicians in the industry. Interesting??

 

Essentially, they are feeling the pinch of trying to compete in an open market and so they are trying to close the doors.

 

Gentlemen, in my opinion, all this will do is just make forums such as this all that much more powerful. Patients (people in general) are becoming more and more educated and want to find unbiased sites where they can educate themselves. Most people will see thru such a site and it will bury itself. Just a matter of time in such a knowledgeable world that the site would fail.

 

Once again these are just my opinions to such a great topic.

 

NN

 

P.S. I am slowly narrowing down a date for my next HT so hopefully soon my photo album will be updated with some new hairs.

[Pat - Community Publisher]

As the previous posts make clear, the members of this forum know the score and easily see this Hair Club for Doctors for what it is - a desperate attempt to mimic this community minus any real standards or accountability. It was not created to serve patients but rather to disempower them.

 

Many doctors fear the control that this community has over livelihoods. Many leading physicians get between 1/3 to 1/2 of all their new patients from this community. I can understand their fear of being removed. Perhaps they feel they will be able to huddle together in a group that has no standards or accountability.

 

So in addition to having no visibility the Hair Loss Doctor List of good old boys has no credibility.

 

Did these physicians really think this site would fly in the age of informed patients who have gotten used to thinking for themselves and expressing themselves online?

 

I encourage members of this community to visit the Hair Loss Doctor's Forum and to give this forum a dose of reality. Let's see how this self serving club can deal with real patients who can think independently and know what a grade A hair transplant looks like rather than ground up hamburger.

 

Posting photos of true world class results for physicians who aren't in their club would make this point. Then just in case this Hair Club for Doctors buys enough click through ads to attract visitors they'll know what real results look like.

 

I don't see such posts as support for this site or its forum. Rather such posts will give this forum a dose of reality that it will ultimately not be able to handle. After all could the doctors on this site who could not meet the standards for inclusion on the Hair Transplant Network stand for having their patient results compared side by side with Drs. Hasson, Wong, Feller, Shapiro, Rahal, Epstien etc? I'm betting they will choke within two weeks and start hitting the delete button like a desperate gambler at a slot machine.

 

Yes this site will fail for many reasons. But it will fail mainly because it was conceived not to help but rather to destroy. But before it flounders it will tarnish and possibly ruin the reputations of those physicians who have supported it and its hostile intentions.

 

Onwards and upwards, Pat

 

P.S. When I get time I'll share with this community how Dr. Dow Stough and Dr. Tony Mangubaut (former President of the ISHRS and creator of a device that cuts all grafts with one hammer blow by driving dozens of razor blades into a strip of donor tissue) attempted to ambush me and Farrell Manne (publisher of Hair Loss Help) during a physicians meeting about the Internet and its dangers. This new site is only a chapter in a long sad saga of doctors fighting the inevitable process of patient's critiquing them.

[Bill - Seemiller]

I agree with Pat,

 

I don't feel that posting the truth on the other forum is supporting their community. Comparing our photos of surgery performed by elite surgeons will certainly shed to light the reality of the surgery practices of these other physicians.

 

In additions, whereas I do NOT plan to become an ACTIVE member there, certainly I will call out the lies by providing the truth when appropriate. If my post are deleted, well then...so be it. Deletion of our posts will only further prove their desperate attempt to empower less than reputable doctors and disempower patients that challenge their techniques.

 

Cheers bros!

 

Bill

[PerfectFew]

People,

 

I am sure that this post will get deleted, because that is how this site operates. True opinions are not welcome, but $$$ is.

 

At one point in my life I visited this forum to learn about hair transplants and to find a good doctor. The doctors recommended to me at that time were not truly the best.

 

After much research and some behind the scenes investigation, I found out that you are basically just "recommending" doctors based upon the THOUSANDS of dollars that you get paid by them. I found this out by speaking with very good hair transplant physicians. Some of them even use their own staff to post in the forums and pretend to be patients.

 

Make no mistake about it people. Jotronic is MAKING LARGE SUMS OF MONEY FROM DOCTORS TO PROMOTE THEM. There is nothing more unethical than to call yourself an advocate, then charge money for advertising and promote only those that you see as "fit" (those who pay your fees).

 

All of the reputable physicians in the industry have taken notice. This site does very little for the ethics of the industry. It lines pockets of those who are unethical.

 

I have the proof to back this up. Anyone who wants to see the reality can contact me anytime. If you really want to find a decent surgeon, GO VISIT THEM FOR A FREE CONSULTATION. It is simple. See their work. Talk to their patients. ASK REAL DOCTORS ABOUT THE SCIENCE. Then, form your own opinion.