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Here's even more interesting news. I went back to see the changes on the 'Hairlossdoctor' site and ... no forums, no doctor list... basically, nothing is remaining. There's a single page with very little detail at all.

 

Congratulations to the doctors who quickly realized the 'agenda' of the other site and the credibility of this site and its members.

 

Pat - keep the faith!

___________________________

1662 with Dr. Ron Shapiro - Spring 2006

1105 with Dr. Ron Shapiro - Fall 2009

M&M Weblog

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The Hair Loss Doctor List was destine for failure from day one due to its lack of meaningful standards, accountability, credibility, visibility and its exclusion of Canadian physicians and quality physicians like Dr. Ron Shapiro, Dr. Jeff Epstein, Dr. Bob True and others who use patient educators.

 

Its foundation was also shaky because it was built on the basis of being against something rather than for something. It was so faulty that under intense scrutiny it crumbled in less than three days time.

 

It proved to be a big embarrassment to its unsuspecting physician supports and its principle originators Dr. Goertz, Dr. Bobby Limmer and Dr. Dow Stough.

 

But while the site has retreated behind the facade of a single web page, the animosity that certain physicians have for this community has not gone away.

 

I expect the hostility and antagonism that has been directed toward our patient based community over the past several years will continue, only for now it will retreat behind the curtain of private emails and phone discussions.

 

In time I expect this simmering hostility will regroup and again rear its ugly head perhaps in a more clever manner.

 

When it does I'll be ready and so will this community.

 

P.S. I do not consider this issue resolved just because the originators of this hostile site have cried uncle and retreated. I have some serious questions for Dr. B.L. Limmer in particular regarding his deep involvement and promotion of this hostile site.

Never Forget - It's what radiates from within, not from your skin, that really matters!

My Hair Loss Blog

Sharing is what keeps this community vital. Please join in. To learn how I restored my hair and started this community, click here.

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I am apparently late in my news...I was about to report the same thing as M&M.

 

But victory is ours...and rightfully so. As Pat said...due to their lack of ethics, they were destined for failure from the beginning.

 

Pat,

 

Regarding Dr. Limmer...I actually just referenced my concern for them on another post. Until this issue is resolved, I feel uncomfortable recommending these physicians to anyone. Please keep us posted.

 

This community will certainly be ready when hostility rears it's ugly head once again. In the meantime...I look forward to being a part of continuing to help educate the members and guests of this community.

 

Bill

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Amen, brothers!

 

Yes, I just now went to the HairLossDoctor site and there is only the main page talking about HT's. No forum, no Docs........nothing!

 

I also count this as a huge victory for all of us. Not just HTN, but all forums and individuals here to help others and ensure that the TRUTH gets out about hair loss and alternatives to it.

 

Great to be apart of a winning team with high integrity.

 

I would also like clarification about Dr. Limmer and his stance. I believe he was the last Coalition Surgeon still on the site when I checked while there were a couple of recommended Drs there as well.

 

Again, congrats gentlemen.

 

Viva La Follicle!

Hairbank

 

1st HT 1-18-05 - 1200 FUT's

2nd HT 2-15-06 - 3886 FUT's Dr. Wong

3rd HT 4-24-08 - 2415 FUT's Dr. Wong

 

GRAND TOTAL: 7501 GRAFTS

 

current regimen: 1.25mg finasteride every other day

 

My Hair Loss Weblog

 

Disclaimer: I'm not a Doctor (and have never played one on TV ;) ) and have no medical training. Any information I share here is in an effort to help those who don't like hair loss.

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As an HT doctor, I would have been swayed by that post op photo that Pat posted. NO doctor would want to be associated with a practice or website that considered THAT work to be true follicular transplantation.

 

Why doesn't that doctor simply improve his technique? It's not like these new methods are secrets. And if he insists on NOT changing his methods, why doesn't he just come on this site and post his reasons. Who knows, maybe he's right...although I highly doubt it.

 

I never heard of this doctor before this post, and that photo Pat showed is all the reason I need to know why.

 

Should he read this post I would tell him not to be offended or frustrated. Just admit you are a bit behind in skill and technique and make an effort to improve. Simple as that!

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Pat,

is this the end of my short career as a shill for your site?

So much shilling to do so little time icon_biggrin.gif

IH

HT2 2570 grafts Dr Feller

HT 2350 grafts Dr Epstein

Finax 1mg per day

nizoral 2% 3/week

MSM 3000 mg / day

TOTAL GRAFTS 4920

 

http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums?a=albumtopic&TOPIC_OID=6751014913&f=2566060861

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I.H....

 

You mean you didn't get the check?? err, ah, well.....it's in the mail, my friend. Sorry about that icon_confused.gificon_wink.gif

Hairbank

 

1st HT 1-18-05 - 1200 FUT's

2nd HT 2-15-06 - 3886 FUT's Dr. Wong

3rd HT 4-24-08 - 2415 FUT's Dr. Wong

 

GRAND TOTAL: 7501 GRAFTS

 

current regimen: 1.25mg finasteride every other day

 

My Hair Loss Weblog

 

Disclaimer: I'm not a Doctor (and have never played one on TV ;) ) and have no medical training. Any information I share here is in an effort to help those who don't like hair loss.

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Why doesn't that doctor simply improve his technique?

 

Amen Dr. Feller. That's the point I've made on several threads.

 

Should he read this post I would tell him not to be offended or frustrated. Just admit you are a bit behind in skill and technique and make an effort to improve. Simple as that!

 

 

I agree that this is the most viable solution. Some people get too emotional and make decisions that are emotional rather than one out of sound logic and education.

 

Oddly enough, it's the very same thing I/we tell perspective patients seeking HT here...NOT to make emotional decisions, but to make rational ones after plenty of research.

 

But doctor or patient...people are people. Some people just need to start making more rational decisions.

 

One more thing...I do not wish ANYONE harm...including Dr. Goertz. I think it would be tremendous if he just improved his skills, apologized for his bad emotional decisions, and moved on. Maybe after some time, he may even be able to be recommended here again...but I'm projecting!

 

Bill

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Guest Abbie

I've been following the posts on this site for several weeks. I am an RN and have specialized in Hair Restoration for over 12 years. I've seen the industry change markedly in the past 12 years and am excited at where it's headed. I've met most of the physicians you recommend here and I've met and worked with several of the physicians that are associated with "hair mills" as you call them. I've had the honor of working with the giants in the field as well as the newer guys who are excited and motivated to hone their skills and give the best possible care to the patient. I've worked along side of technicians who are highly skilled. I've trained dozens of technicians and help mold them to perform to a level of excellence.

 

I think it's important to be well informed and educated before making a decision to undergo a cosmetic surgical procedure. The physician however, is the only one who is qualified to evaluate a patient for hair restoration.

 

You can't learn everything you need to know about hair restoration from a web site, except that most of them are managed by people who have an agenda, by people who are pissed off at someone, or by people who want to make a buck.

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Abbie,

 

I can't honestly say I understand the intention of your post.

 

The fact that you used the term "so called" hair mills leads me to believe that you work for one of them. Are you a Bosley employee? MHR? Who do you work for?

 

The longest part of your post is giving your "credentials". The fact, however, that you've met and worked with a number of physicians doesn't really mean anything. The fact that you are excited about where hair transplantation is a good thing...so are we.

 

Education is important...and certainly qualified physicians ultimately are responsible for making the call as to who is a good candidate for an HT...however, many physicians don't make good judgements and/or are not skilled enough to produce quality results.

 

THAT is the reason for a website like this...to recommend physicians that have met our (the patients) expectations.

 

Your last paragraph appears accusatory so I suggest you explain it and get all your thoughts out in the open. I must caution you, however...since it's obvious you work in the field, your skepticism of this community will most likely be written off as an employee of a bitter doctor who couldn't meet the criteria of this community.

 

Cheers.

 

Bill

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Guest Abbie

Yes, I work for one of them, and that shouldn't matter. I realize that there is a criteria and a fee to be a member of the community and that's fine, Pat has a right to make a living.

 

There are many physicians out there that do excellent work and just simply don't feel the need to be a member of this community. That fact doesn't make them a bad hair restoration surgeon. I'm willing to bet that a lot of physicians out there go out of their way to avoid being associated with a web site like this.

 

I give my credentials because it does matter that I've worked with a number of physicians, and met most of the physicians who are members of this community. I believe this gives me a well rounded perspective and good knowledge base.

 

It's unfortunate that who I work for would cause my opinions to be written off by this community.

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Abbie,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

"I think it's important to be well informed and educated before making a decision to undergo a cosmetic surgical procedure."

 

And that is exactly what sites like this offer, information for self education and hundreds of patients that share what they've been through in the spirit of sharing so that others may benefit. As a patient, I've educated and I've learned for the past five years so I can attest to this from personal experience.

 

"The physician however, is the only one who is qualified to evaluate a patient for hair restoration."

 

And by the same token patients are just as qualified to know if they are happy with their results. If it wasn't for sites like this patients would still be going back to their clinic four or five times for 1500 graft sessions to "stay ahead of their hair loss".

 

"There are many physicians out there that do excellent work and just simply don't feel the need to be a member of this community."

 

Many docs don't feel the need to be a part of these communities because they have mult-million dollar advertising budgets financed by the "head office" to bring in the revenue. There may be some docs that are competent that are not a member of this community but anyone that is proud of their work should have no issue with exposure via any public medium. Of course, if this were the case I'm sure I/we would have heard of them by now.

 

"I'm willing to bet that a lot of physicians out there go out of their way to avoid being associated with a web site like this. "

 

This site, as far as I know, has no standing rules against participation by non-member docs. iI their work can stand up to public scrutiny I'm sure it would be appreciated.

 

I think it would be nice to know which clinic you work for. If you feel as you say you do then you should be proud of the clinic that you represent.

The Truth is in The Results

 

Dr. Victor Hasson and Dr. Jerry Wong are members of the Coalition of Independent Hair Restoration Physicians

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I think it's important to be well informed and educated before making a decision to undergo a cosmetic surgical procedure. The physician however, is the only one who is qualified to evaluate a patient for hair restoration.

 

You can't learn everything you need to know about hair restoration from a web site, except that most of them are managed by people who have an agenda, by people who are pissed off at someone, or by people who want to make a buck.

 

I find your comments indicative of the archaic mentality of the dark ages of hair restoration.

 

ANY doctor should be excited and challenged to belong to a community such as this.

 

What better way to test your mettle?

 

As far as ONLY doctors assessing hairloss and restoration--- Your assertion is flawed.....

If what you say is true that would mean that the level of skill and patient care is equal across the board and does not differ from doctor to doctor.

 

I don't know who you work for and while you may be very knowledgeable and very good at what you do, it is incumbent on YOU and the Doctor you work to realize that hair transplantation and the internet are becoming more and more tied together.

 

I have posted this before--- the internet started gaining popularity in around 95, so most of the patients 40+ research by word of mouth, phone book or walk-ins, whereas those of us currently under 40 make up a large portion of the internet "boom."

 

Due to the fact that almost everyone used the internet for information, your patient base is going to become increasingly internet based, period.

 

It is websites like this one that give people a chance to view work, discuss work, critique or laud work done by virtually any doctor on the planet.

 

I find your comments wholly inaccurate and very disturbing considering you actually work in the industry.

 

The internet is NOW... websites full of information are NOW and educated patients are becoming the norm rather than exception.

 

Take Care,

J

Go Cubs!

 

6721 transplanted grafts

13,906 hairs

Performed by Dr. Ron Shapiro

 

Dr. Ron Shapiro and Dr. Paul Shapiro are members of the Coalition of Independent Hair Restoration Physicians.

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Abbie,

 

Still not willing to mention who signs your pay checks? Interesting.

 

Given the well documented disappointing track record of the major national hair transplant chains, they have never been recommended on this site. However, their patients and physicians have always been welcome to share their experiences and advice any time on this wide open forum.

 

Unfortunately the majority of the patients of these chains who do participate in our forum are not happy with their results or treatment. A search for "MHR" or "Bosley" using this forum's "Find" feature will provide you will hundreds of posts that document this sad reality.

 

Perhaps your happy patients are too busy living the life presented in your infomercials to post?

 

I think you need to take a break from watching hair transplant infomercials and self promotion and tune into what patients are actually reporting on this and other hair loss forums.

 

As for the relatively small number of top quality physicians who have been invited to participate on this community, virtually every single one of them over the past seven years has enthusiastically joined our community and garnered excellent benefits for their clinic and patients.

 

After all, why would any physician who is qualified for recommendation on this community turn down an opportunity to participate in the most popular and respected hair transplant community in the world?

 

I challenge you to list those physicians who you claim are qualified to be recommended on this community but who are not yet recommended.

 

Let's have their names and while you're at it the name of your employeer.

 

I've looked under a lot of rocks over the years to find the few gems who are recommended on this site. If you actually find one I'll be delighted to have this physician brought to my attention and so will this community.

 

Pat

 

 

P.S. Joe "Inclusion in communities like this may not necessarily indicate quality of care . . . " excuse me Joe but if you're refering to the clinics who are recommended on this community quality of care has everything to do with why they are recommended on this community.

Never Forget - It's what radiates from within, not from your skin, that really matters!

My Hair Loss Blog

Sharing is what keeps this community vital. Please join in. To learn how I restored my hair and started this community, click here.

Follow our Community on Twitter.

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Abbie,

 

Considering your stand and premature hostility toward this community I think it DOES matter who you work for. You have to remember...you came onto this community with a negative approach from the beginning. If you were to say "I work for clinic X and want to show everyone the quality job our clinic does", we'd be willing and ready to view results and give our feedback. If you want to start fresh and go that route, we'll be willing to listen.

 

Physicians/clinics who are NOT recommended here are STILL allowed to post results. This is an open community. So I'm not sure where you got that idea.

 

I agree with JoTronic...those who don't feel they NEED this community are either those who advertise in different ways. But finances and advertising are a side note anyway. The REAL reason why a doctor should be involved in this community is to publicly share their work, if they can handle the public scrutiny. Quality physicians will thrive in a patient driven forum, while those physicians who do poor work will fail.

 

Just because a clinic is NOT a member of this community does not mean by default he does poor work. But if your clinic does great work...I challenge you to publicly post some high definition before/after results with graft/hair counts.

 

I won't knock your "credentials", but viewpoints are irrelevant...results are relevant.

 

Nobody is saying that who you work for will cause your opinions to be written off. But you won't publicly acknowledge WHO you work for.

 

As Joe said...if you are proud of your work, proclaim it loudly. If your clinic does quality work, provide examples for us to look at.

 

We pride ourselves with being open minded here. If a physician does quality work, we will acknowledge it.

 

Bill

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Originally posted by Abbie:

 

I think it's important to be well informed and educated before making a decision to undergo a cosmetic surgical procedure. The physician however, is the only one who is qualified to evaluate a patient for hair restoration.

 

Abbie-

 

I guess when I first read your post, like Bill, I wondered your intentions?? Why did you post here? I hope you'll answer that question as it's really important. The vast majority of us here are simply those who have experienced hair loss, didn't like it, and want to offer assistance to others regarding hair loss and methods for possible loss prevention and/or restoration.

 

As for the physician being the only one qualified to evaluate a patient for a transplant.........I disagree. Am I qualified......no.......I have seen tons of results and can give general advice about procedures and what to expect, maybe even come close to estimating numbers necessary for someone. However, many of the consultants employed by clincs have been reviewing HT candidates for years. They have seen what hair characteristics and donor hair are necessary for someone to qualify for a HT.

 

You can't learn everything you need to know about hair restoration from a web site, except that most of them are managed by people who have an agenda, by people who are pissed off at someone, or by people who want to make a buck.

 

 

True...........you may not be able to learn what you need to know about hair restoration from the internet, but you can learn enough to make an educated decision regarding what it takes for a good candidate and a bad one.

 

Here's a question for you: What about the physicians who are still performing 1000 graft mega sessions with larger than average incisions, non-directionally placed incisions/grafts....etc..................with today's technology and results from HT's, can these physicians do what it takes to offer the best for their patients? It's not a matter of whether or not they CAN, it's whether or not they will choose to do so..........assuming they have the necessary skill set.

 

Does the owner of this site have an agenda..........YES! What is it..........helping those suffering with hair loss. Is it a hidden agenda.......NO.........the purpose of the site is everywhere you care to look. If the information is not what you'd consider useful.......you have a choice as to whether or not you choose to frequent the site and participate.

 

Is the site's owner pissed at someone..............NO. Maybe a little disappointed, as we all are, when we see a pour soul who wants more hair on their head go into a "mill" and pay too much for not enough grafts that may or may not grow. Most of us have been there, feel for them, and want to help.........period.

 

Is the site's owner here "making a buck"..........man I hope so. The information here is invaluable to those suffering hair loss. What is wrong with someone making a living at helping people with hair loss? Isn't that what you're doing icon_wink.gif?? What about the physicians..........don't they get paid for services rendered?? What is the big deal??

 

Anyway, I hope you will personally consider your true intentions by posting and if you're not here to help by sharing from your experiences (and I'm sure you could) then stop frequenting the site.

Hairbank

 

1st HT 1-18-05 - 1200 FUT's

2nd HT 2-15-06 - 3886 FUT's Dr. Wong

3rd HT 4-24-08 - 2415 FUT's Dr. Wong

 

GRAND TOTAL: 7501 GRAFTS

 

current regimen: 1.25mg finasteride every other day

 

My Hair Loss Weblog

 

Disclaimer: I'm not a Doctor (and have never played one on TV ;) ) and have no medical training. Any information I share here is in an effort to help those who don't like hair loss.

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Hi everyone, I am saying to hope that you would be more positive to the persons and that you would just want to have the good hair too so maybe the doctors are good or maybe they are bad. But maybe the people who are coming to say things are being not about the hair but are about the money.

 

The money is ok because I now what it is to not have the money. It is for the patient for decide if they like with doctor and if the doctor makes the money that is ok too. So is the point to be positive or to yell at the opinion of the patient?

 

Please dont be mad at me too becuase my English is not good sometimes and I make many mistakes and maybe it is not having the meaning. Thank you.

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sanjayahair,

 

Nobody is mad at you...don't worry.

 

The whole debate on this thread currently is over the quality of physicians being recommended on this site. We don't recommend physicians here for one of two (or both) reasons:

 

1. Quality of hair transplant is sub-standard (not good)

2. Ethics are questionable (character, poor decisions, etc)

 

Ultimately, I believe both are related (hence my converstion with spoon on another thread regarding Dr. Limmer)

 

Bill

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Guest Abbie
Originally posted by Bill:

Abbie,

 

Considering your stand and premature hostility toward this community I think it DOES matter who you work for. You have to remember...you came onto this community with a negative approach from the beginning.

 

Bill:

I didn't come into this community with a negative approach...I came into it after hearing about this site from a colleague. It was actually presented to me as an informative well done site and I was curious as to it's content. I've been reading a lot of the posts for about 8 weeks now. Some areas of this site are good and informative and then there are the other nasty, cut throat and mean spirited ones. Those are the ones that I find to be offensive. That's all, I know you all probably don't care and truthfully, I don't care either. You all seem to need to grouse so have a great time and I wish you all the best.

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Abbie,

 

You don't call this negative?

 

You can't learn everything you need to know about hair restoration from a web site, except that most of them are managed by people who have an agenda, by people who are pissed off at someone, or by people who want to make a buck.

 

 

You are insinuating that we have an agenda here other than helping patients fight hair loss.

 

Anyway...from your last sentence I take it you are leaving.

 

I guess that means you will not rise to the challenge to share your clinics work with us.

 

You have to understand that the "cut throat" threads that you are referring to is because we won't promote or tolerate self promotion of clinics who do sub-par work, period. If that's offensive to you...you are admitting that you and your clinic is guilty.

 

I do NOT try to chase away anybody who is here legitimately to partake in discussion, education, and/or sharing results. I value the feedback of other patients, clinics, and doctors alike. But I won't (nor will many others) hesitate to call it as we see it.

 

Bill

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Originally posted by Abbie:

I know you all probably don't care and truthfully, I don't care either. You all seem to need to grouse so have a great time and I wish you all the best.

 

Abbie-

 

If you're still lurking here, I'd ask you to review your first post, ask yourself honestly what your intentions were. Any discussions here are for the benefit of those suffering hair loss, wouldn't you agree? The majority of the threads deal with offering help to those in need, that's all.

 

If you've been in the industry as long as you claim to have been I'm sure you could provide some great information. The statement you made about physicians being the only people qualified to evaluate a patient for hair restoration clearly is pointed to all of us here to tell us our experiences mean nil, so why bother even having this site then? When someone comes here with questions what do we do, tell them to call a HT doc? After seeing results of many HT procedures posted.....start to finish.........I believe a lay person can advise someone the "basics" to try and determine if that person is a candidate for a HT.

 

Often times, yes, we end up advising a person that they really need to talk with a Doc. The majority of the time, questions are not so techincal that they cannot be answered by someone who has been through a few HT's, or researched issues on loss and means of prevention and/or restoration.

 

Personally, I believe you could add a great deal to this site. I do believe you came here with "a chip on your shoulder" which is evidenced by the statements in your first post. I ask you to reconsider your opinion of the site.............the vast majority of threads are not argumentative.........they are helpful to those suffering hair loss.

Hairbank

 

1st HT 1-18-05 - 1200 FUT's

2nd HT 2-15-06 - 3886 FUT's Dr. Wong

3rd HT 4-24-08 - 2415 FUT's Dr. Wong

 

GRAND TOTAL: 7501 GRAFTS

 

current regimen: 1.25mg finasteride every other day

 

My Hair Loss Weblog

 

Disclaimer: I'm not a Doctor (and have never played one on TV ;) ) and have no medical training. Any information I share here is in an effort to help those who don't like hair loss.

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To hairbank and Bill. You should not be so mad at Abbie. I looked at her information that she post to this page and I dont see the problem you see. She just have an opinion like you also have an opinion. Instead of get mad at Abbie for the opinion you should just say your opinin discuss the information and say your own experience. It looks to be that Abbie was trying to help by saying this website is getting unfriendly and the person who look here are not getting the information. Thank you.

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Sanjayahair, I know you came to this forum community seeking input regarding the Limmer clinic. The members of this community have given you their honest and well reasoned opinions on the other topic you started entitled "Doctor Limmer and the Mega Sessions".

 

But ultimately you have to do your own research and thinking. In my opinion, Dr. Bobby Limmer's clinic provides qaulity results that far exceed their website publishing sense :-)

 

I suggest that as a new member you look past the current politics and focus on selecting the physician whose results impress you most.

 

Normally this forum functions with little or no "politics" - thank God. The focus in on getting optimal results for patients, as it should be.

 

But sometimes we have to fight for the freedoms that we have within this community when they are attacked by physicians who do not support the right of patients to critique physicians openly.

 

I commend and thank the members of this forum for seeing Dr. Goertz's site for what it was and rallying to the defense of this community. I also appreciate that all the physicians recommended on this site ultimately withdrew their good names from association with Dr. Goertz's site once they realized its nature and consequences.

 

I'm committed to operating this community in an open and accountable manner. I expect participating physicians to also submit to this process - no matter how uncomfortable it may sometimes be. Without accountability there is no credibility.

 

When all is said and done and the dust of this whirl wind controversy clears, the real "prime directive" of this community above politics, money, friendships etc. is helping hair loss sufferers achieve optimal results. I feel I'm very fortunate to make a good living at some thing I believe in deeply and without ethical compromise.

 

At the end of the day, I'm fortunate to have earned the highest honor of all - the respect of fellow patients and members like Bill, HairBank, B Spot, Mrjb, Jotronic and the many other members who know the real truth about how and why this community functions.

 

The bottom line is RESULTS. Therefore despite Dr. Limmer's mistaken decision to promote Dr. Goertz's site, (which Dr. Limmer claimed to me on the phone yesterday that he did not realize would attack patient based communities) his clinic should ultimately be judged on its patient's final results.

 

The Limmer clinic has consistently garnered good patient reviews on this forum over five plus years (use the "Find" feature on this forum to search for Limmer to read all posts). I was also impressed by the refined and minimally invasive nature of their grafting when I visited their clinic two months ago, click here to view the highlights and photos).

 

At the end of the day, its these results that count most and that's why the Limmer clinic is recommended on this community.

 

However, I have asked Dr. Bobby Limmer to read this entire topic and post his response to the issues discussed in it. I expect he will be a big enough man to apologize to all of us for promoting Dr. Goertz's website to his colleagues.

 

Best wishes, Pat

 

P.S. It looks like Abbie was not up for taking my "Pepsi Challenge". The expression "put up or shut up" comes to mind.

Never Forget - It's what radiates from within, not from your skin, that really matters!

My Hair Loss Blog

Sharing is what keeps this community vital. Please join in. To learn how I restored my hair and started this community, click here.

Follow our Community on Twitter.

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