Boycott

[the B spot]

I am really very upset that two of the most dedicated members of this site, NervousNelly and NoBuzz have been banned.

 

Because this is an open forum such long standing members should feel they can speak out against both Doctor and Members alike... I remember not to long ago that these two members helped regulate/defend this forum against ALL who threatened it.

 

I don't have to agree with their choices, but again, this is an open forum and these are two very well respected members.

 

I know Pat has always been reluctant to ban anyone---so this completely took me off guard, to be honest.

 

Perhaps a suspension for 3 days or a week is in order for those who run afoul of Pat/Bill? That gives both parties the chance to cool off and rethink things and communicate????

 

I hope this type of protocol can be added or assimilated into how this site operates. I think it establishes a solid safe-guard against emotional decisions and can work to promote working together as opposed to making enemies.

 

People like NN and NoBuzz are HARD to come by on these forums. They will be missed in the days to come, I am sure.

 

Jason

[wylie]

I never even saw this brouhaha nor do I know the details behind this poster being banned. However, while I am not surprised that the poster in question eventually got banned (does the kid good, he posted way too much anyway) he never had a transplant and used the forum as his personal romper room which were strikes against him as well. While his banning has upset a few people (somewhat needlessly it seemed to me at first glance) I also can see their point when I read something like this:

 

Chucky and Luck UK also had their posting privileges removed for a number of reasons, but primarily for smearing the Farjo clinic despite clear evidence that this clinic now provides outstanding and ultra refined hair transplantation.

 

 

This is where the "freedom of speech" road see that sign that reads "Dead End"

 

So these two posters disagree with your assessment and they are banned? That makes the forum "clubby" and is exactly what any forum should be not, when certain MD's are "off limits" then the integrity of this forum is non existent.

 

Might as well call it paid advertising then

 

Edit to add: Nervous Nelly and nobuzz are banned?

 

Thats too much, and thats no way to run this forum, gotta add that

[MrJobi]

Yes

 

It is sad to see some dedicated members leave. If I look objectively at this maybe one or two of these people actually would be in question but that is not my decision and I certainly understand why ..

 

Boycotting because of one specific instance is a bit selfish.. We all look at whats wrong with everything and ALWAYS overlook everything that is right. This is typical, look at the news and see how many topics are positive and how many are negative ( 30 to 1 on a good day)

 

We are here to HELP people and although there are some challenges, focusing on some individual situations does not give reason to "call it off"

 

This site helps soo many people, lets focus on that. Let's focus on Pat & Bill trying to help people and provide a positive atmosphere for hairloss sufferers..It is not their fault if there are occasions where a small percentage patients have an unfortunate experience.. They cannot control everything, just this site.

There are risks in Hair transplantation, patients need to understand this & not point fingers at this site for having a result which is unfortunate.. Nobody is forcing anyone to go to a specific doctor or have a procedure. In fact if you read closely it is the opposite.

 

Don't shoot the messenger

[Pat - Community Publisher]

I'm going to be busy this week visiting several clinics in the San Fransisco Bay Area and observing their surgeries all day.

 

I won't have the time to continually repeat what I've already stated on this and other topics.

 

Those who believe in the value of this community and want to stay and contribute to the process of helping people find the best treatments and doctors are encouraged to do so.

 

Those who choose to disregard our long standing track record of quality recommendations and openness, are free to leave.

 

Either way, I know there will be plenty of genuine members on this forum who will help others.

 

Nervous Nelly's calling for a boycott of this community hardly makes him "one of the most dedicated members" of this community. Those who miss him can find him whining away on any of the other forum communities that have no quality standards, clinic visits or patient input for determining the physicians who are presented.

[M&M]

Pat / Bill,

 

I'm hoping you'll answer the questions I posted earlier, which are reposted here for convenience:

 

If you sense that others have some reservation, why not make it so that new recommended Doctors have to post a minimum of 'x' before / after photos per month for a couple of years so that we can truly monitor their performance / consistency. In fact, all doctors should have to post some level of before/after photos.

 

You visited all clinics at one point to bring them into the coalition, but what is the procedure to ensure they remain at that same high level? 1 visit a year? 20 before/after photos from patients per year?

 

I'm curious about this. I know you are out visiting what are likely new clinics, but what about the existing clinics?

 

I know one member got banned for saying he'd only consider a couple of the doctors. I'm not taking anything away from those who you believe are highly qualified, but my honest opinion is that all doctors are not created equally and I know I'd be only considering Shapiro, H&W, Feller, Rahal and... that's about it. The reason? They consistently post impressive results. How else can I form my opinion? You have always said that the proof is in the pudding and the only way I can see proof is with consistently impressive results.

 

I can't think of the last photos I saw from Aronovitz, Bernstein, Charles, Cooley, Devroye, Dorin, Farjo, Feriduni, Gabel, Griffin, HAber, Keene, Konior, Limmer, Rassman, Reed, Rose, Tessler, True, Tykocinski, Vogel, or Williams...

 

Anyway, food for thought that I hope you will consider as it will only serve to strengthen the forum.

[hairthere]

I think M&M makes a good point and when i think about the only docs i would consider, his list matches mine to a T (i'd add alexander, though).

[Bill - Seemiller]

M&M,

 

Thank you for your suggestions.

 

Though they are good ones, trying to get physician members to regularly contribute to this forum community is like drawing blood from a stone. We do continually ask our physicians to regularly contribute, but for one reason or another, many simply just don't do it.

 

I want to make it clear that nobody was banned for saying that they are more comfortable with one doctor over another. We recognize that physicians who fail to get involved regularly are hurting themselves and patients will be more confident going to a physician who's work is more transparent on our discussion forum.

 

Notgoing2gobald did say that there were only a few physicians he would go to. This did not get him banned, but it did prompt Pat to send him a private message about it. Contempt shown in a private message to Pat and a blatant disregard for his hard work was the icing on the cake for this particular member which got him banned.

 

Pat was fully aware how many times I had to chase him around the forum telling him not to take constructive threads on wild goose chases and cleaning up inappropriate comments that could be potentially offensive to women and entire races.

 

Therefore it was a number of factors that led to the suspension of notgoing2gobald, not just one thing in particular.

 

A number of the physicians you mentioned have some excellent patient examples posted throughout this forum, even some recent ones. Usnig the "find" feature will lead you there.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[Pat - Community Publisher]

I fully agree that it would be great to see more examples of physicians work on this forum. But trying to get them to do what's best for them and potential patients is like pushing the proverbial rope. Now that Bill has been trying to get the doctors to post he knows first hand how hard it is to help them.

 

Frankly, it frustrates me that typically only a handful of physicians dominate the forums largely because they are better at posting their work than actually doing better work. It's only natural that patients would then develop the perception that only this handful of doctors are worth going to. Then patients do and return to post about this handful of doctors, thus further reinforcing the reputation of this visible clique.

 

Visitors on the forums would have a much more realistic sense of doctors' work if they all posted the same amount of photos. I've mailed the doctors instructions for posting, had in person meeting to show them how to do, yet only some of them ever do it.

 

I've been in doctors office and looking at their photos and seen jaw dropping results that they never get around to posting or even adding to their sites. It's truly pathetic.

 

In my experience the truism that doctors are generally horrible businessmen is true. Doctors are a different breed and many still think that posting is shameless self promotion.

 

Of course, it's a shame they think this. It's their loss and its a loss to potential patients who would benefit from their services if they had the confidence to go to them.

 

I guess if more patients asked them to post photos on the forums that might actually help get them to take action.

 

Onwards and Upwards, Pat

[flyby]

I also think that it's important for all coalition docs to commit to atleast 1 posting per month of their results and I've stated this several times before. As you've explained getting them to do this has been extremely difficult. I imagine that it has more to do with a bit of laziness or simply not wanting to deal with it.

 

If it is a case of laziness and not about wanting their results seen then maybe HTN could post the photos on their behalf as a service included with the fees docs pay to be listed as. I think it would probably be easier to get them or an office tech to simply shoot of an email once in a while as opposed to posting. Maybe not but something that should be asked of them.

[balody]

m+m wrote

 

"I can't think of the last photos I saw from Aronovitz, Bernstein, Charles, Cooley, Devroye, Dorin, Farjo, Feriduni, Gabel, Griffin, HAber, Keene, Konior, Limmer, Rassman, Reed, Rose, Tessler, True, Tykocinski, Vogel, or Williams..."

 

see this really gets my goat.mick mchugh has presented on average a patient per month in the photo section.i just looked back,2 in april,1 in march,1 in feb and 1 in jan and so on.this is without me and fallenstar giving our updates monthly,yet m+m gives a sweeping statement based on what he hasnt seen!isnt the buzz word on here "research"?i suggest some members do this instead of throwing it about"willy nilly"

[anonymous man]

Wow

 

I have no idea what is going on.

 

Sounds like an excellent soap opera.

 

 

I just skimmed this thread, seems like some heavy stuff has gone down.

 

I will be first to admit that being a small community, I feel a bit upset to hear that the ultimate resource here, users with experience and stories, are going missing.

 

It makes me feel like I wont get a fully well rounded opinion .... but anyway.

 

Just to keep us informed, is it possible to get a link to the whole drama, and what happened? I am extremely intrigued

[dakota3]

The doc's w/ the most publicity arent posting! They have paid patient advocates that are here posting for them which is pretty smart if you ask me. The only doc i see on here w/ any consistantsy is Feller. So between him and Spex there isnt anyone on this forum that shouldnt have Feller cross their mind when thinking about a HT. Now thats not to say that these guys are the best, but generally speaking people go w/ the business they think of 1st. Its called branding. Its very powerful

[MrJobi]

Hi

 

Guys, our doctors are not advertising experts and need consent from patients to do so. Some people don't want to post photos like myself. This does not make the doctor less talented although it is a good idea. Go to their website and you can see plenty of photos. If you want to see recent pictures of patients you can always visit the office of the doctor. Remember, this is part of the research process. We cannot always get one stop shopping, it is up to an individual interested to contact the doctor AND meet patients in real life.. Pics can be very misleading as well

 

Branding and marketing is a powerful thing, look at Bosley and Armani who are masters of this.. Does this make them better doctors ( the pics are great) ????

 

You decide.. By the way, I am not paid one cent by anyone.

[HairDew]

Geeez, I never read this forum (Open Hairloss Talk) but boy this is pity. Why would members try to boycot the forums....How is this beneficial to prospect patients and NOOBS like myself. I learned a great deal of information for the past few months on these forums and I have NOTHING but POSITIVE to say about Bill and Pats outfit here.

 

After reading here, I also went to HLH to read posts by people who got banned. Well you guys reall have to get a grip on yourselves.

 

The financial side of THIS site has nothing to do with honest recommendations of HT Doctors. I see absolutely NOTHING WRONG with having this site as a primary business while STILL HELPING hairloss sufferers.

 

In my own experience, I have learned SO much on these forums from all fellows baldheaded guys. Bills input on any topic is almost always tremendous. I have nothing but respect for the guy.

 

All people who are "protesting"....you should stand ABOVE personal agenda and try to understand from a patient point of view.

 

I didn't post anything on HLH because I know I'll just get pounded by haters and I have absolutely no desire to listen to those comments. Bill, I commend you for standing up for what's right on HLH forums. I can only imagine how tough it is to defend everything you believe in and really be on YOUR OWN without support.

 

Anyways, I don't really wanna bore you all with my mumbo jumbo, just wanted to chime in and give you my $.02

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Bill did a great job of defending this site.

Im 50/50 about this whole thing that went on

Yeah there are a couple of guys I wish were back but after reading even some of the guys that left or were banned before Im glad they are gone.

 

Farrrel has been waiting for this time but that thread failed to do nothing but waste all our time. If you go to the hlp site its only about bbqs and Armani ,with a few H@W and Rahal topics. All I know is that if I would have kept lurking on hlp I would have ended up an Armani fue patient,but I had a friend that convinced me not to .

It made me laugh that two little bitches over their find it hard tto believe that friends cant talk about hairloss but they can on here or at bbqs . This site gives you breakdown of all the surgeons so WE can make our own choice Over there they try and make it for you.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Standing somewhat alone on the Hair Loss Help thread was honestly not too difficult. I can say this because truthfully, I was addressing people like "HairDew" and other members and guests who were quietly reading all of the facts and drawing their own conclusions, many of which like "HairDew" have drawn logical and intelligent ones.

 

What I personally find most interesting about the HLH thread, was Farrel chiming in with entirely irrelevant issues to the purpose of the thread. I also love how he thinks that I must attest for the entire history of the Hair Transplant Network and all of Pat's correspondences with physicians and probably even patients before my time here. I guess he doesn't understand that I can easily answer what I do know and have been directly or indirectly involved in (such as the suspension of a few members which is what the thread addressed) verses what I do not know and would have to trail back through ALL of history to uncover (such as whether or not Pat has ever considered a particular physician for the Coalition BEFORE my time here).

 

The other interesting thing is, if you consider the question (even though I don't have the answer), one has to ask, what is the motive behind it? Consider also that I am answering the question of the few who would love to see the Hair Transplant Network fall and are not really interested in a genuine answer.

 

The question on whether or not Pat ever "solicited" (Farrel's word) Dr. Armani for the Coalition can only be answered one of two ways (if I actually knew the answer): "Yes" or "No". Clearly each answer would be followed by a clear logical explanation, but because most are not interested in a genuine answer - it would simply fall on deaf ears.

 

Now consider the responses.

 

If I say "No", how much do you want to bet that the ignorant will shout out "LIAR" which will only be used to try to prove I'm lying about other issues surrounding the suspension and what I have said about our recommendations. See, being a liar means that everything I've ever said is called into question which includes our moral standards of recommendation.

 

If I say "Yes", then I am seen as a hypocrite and in the eyes of the ignorant, our recommendations are based solely upon financial interests rather than moral standards that we claim to have.

 

Of course logic and reason beyond the simple "yes" or "no" that a select few would like to entrap me with would show the intelligent that there is no moral problem or conflict of interest.

 

I have already stated clearly on that thread that given everything I know and suspect about Dr. Armani, I have never considered him for recommendation or the Coalition. Apparently a genuine answer isn't good enough, after all, they couldn't entrap me with it so it frustrated them. Whether or not Pat has once considered Dr. Armani in the long 10 year history past of the Hair Transplant Network - it's possible - but certainly not today given all we have (or more accurately haven't) seen.

 

Cheers,

 

Bill

[HairDew]

Yup, I saw Farrels chiming in with that question. First of all I really would like to know: How old is he? He just sounds like a little kid who plays video games 24/7. Honestly Bill, be above it, I don't actually think you have ANYTHING to explain.

 

I run a few websites with forums (not hairloss related lol) and I too had to deal with a few trouble makers and too had to deal with gazillion of posts from other memeber defending those guys.

 

But I can assure you, in the long run the situation will stabilize and everything will run smooth once again

 

In any case, I think want to thank you for the tremendous work you do on these forums. Even the fact that you post A LOT every day, even if this is your full time job, tells me a lot. For the past couple of months (ever since I became paranoid about my hairloss lol) I have read quite a few site including HLP, HLH and this site, I can genuinely draw my own conclusions of what's best for the PATIENT. We have to be OBJECTIVE not SUBJECTIVE....

 

All you have to do is OPEN YOUR MIND.

Grrr, again my boring mumbo jumbo lol

[Bill - Seemiller]

I can genuinely draw my own conclusions of what's best for the PATIENT

 

Wait a minute....you mean my mind spells that are trying to sway you to a particular physician aren't working? I guess I ought to get that checked out .

 

In any case, I think want to thank you for the tremendous work you do on these forums. Even the fact that you post A LOT every day, even if this is your full time job, tells me a lot.

 

Better be careful - those who think this is the Bill discussion forum and feel that I am highly overmoderating just because I post helpful advice in addition to my "paid" duties may take offense

 

I'm not typically sarcastic - but every once in awhile, you just have to point out stupidity with sarcasm .

 

I appreciate the support HairDew and glad that the veteran members of this and other communities (the ones truly interested in genuinely helping people) have given you some excellent advice Bill

[HairDew]

Yep....now the only thing I have to do is to overcome my fear/discomfort/paranoid or whatever you wanna call it and actually contact the doctor(s) for a consult lol

[hairthere]

It's a shame that this situation has gotten so out of control. I would hate to be a newbie joining either of these forums right now. It's tough enough dealing with hairloss and choosing a doc you can trust. All this situation has done is muck things up. It's really pretty childish.

[HairDew]

hairthere, sorry but I have to disagree. Is this whole thing childish? Absolutely! But it is enough to draw conclusions. I'm a newbie when it comes to HT and everything it has to do with it, I however have something called intelligence, common sense etc. Every intelligent person would not make a decision in 1 day, he or she would spend a lot of time researching, reading, absorbing. But having all different sites/forums (and sometimes arguments) actually helps to draw your conclusions.

[hairthere]

I'm all for arguing and expressing differing points of view. But these arguments have gone beyond healthy debate and are no longer educational. It's become mudslinging.

[HairDew]

I agree, however Bill sounded more reasonable than people who were just bashing him for whatever reasons they have. All the sarcastic remarks of peeing into the garden or something to that extent is really childish, at least I have never seen anything even remotely close to those remarks made by Bill.

[the B spot]

I think it is best if everyone just dropped the issue and stopped taking shots at people who are no longer here.

 

In fact, I think the thread has served its purpose, perhaps Bill could consider locking it------

 

Jason

[balody]

i dont think newbies will be affected by this,as they say"todays newspaper,tomorrows chip paper"

i too think its time Bill locked this,its not like he hasnt given everybody ample time to respond.

time to move forward.