Are topicals just hype and fancy marketing?

[Melvin- Admin]

@NikosHair 

Your accusation against @Gatsby was unfounded. Anyone with a financial interest is required to disclose that in their signature. I can understand accusations against me. The forum pays me, so it's a valid concern. But you lose me and most of the members of our community when you start throwing out conspiracy theories and unfounded accusations against one of the most respected members of our community. There is zero financial interest with Gatsby. He posts here of his own free will. It's clear to me that you are someone who has been previously banned. Your so-called debates are veiled attempts to diminish the community and those participating. I will be ignoring you from this point forward. 

Onwards and upwards,

[Gatsby]

It's ok Melvin. I have a thick donor area. I can take it. 😉 But yes onwards and upwards! ☺️

[NikosHair]

 

On 3/22/2023 at 2:53 PM, NikosHair said:

Thanks for your contribution.

In the interest of transparency, which product do you use? do you pay full price for it or get it free?

Seriously @Gatsby, these were the question(s) I asked. @Melvin- Moderator is just creating a firestorm, which is a distraction from the important questions you, I, and many of the other contributors have.

I'm disappointed if that comes across as offensive as I was genuinely interested in your experience of topicals.

 

[Gatsby]

10 minutes ago, NikosHair said:

 

Seriously @Gatsby, these were the question(s) I asked. @Melvin- Moderator is just creating a firestorm, which is a distraction from the important questions you, I, and many of the other contributors have.

I'm disappointed if that comes across as offensive as I was genuinely interested in your experience of topicals.

 

@NikosHair you are the one creating a firestorm!!! The best way to put out a fire is to starve it of oxygen so that's the last response from me. If I was the moderator I would have you banned!

[NikosHair]

@Gatsby The discussion around the efficacy of topicals will continue to be hotly debated. If you decide to move from orals to topicals I'm sure the community will welcome hearing about your experience. Thanks again for your contribution👍

[NikosHair]

6 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Your accusation against @Gatsby was unfounded. Anyone with a financial interest is required to disclose that in their signature.

This is a fabrication. Can you provide the quote where I say Adrian is on the payroll? There is no quote. More importantly, I believe his views are his own and he generously shares his experience & time with the community for free.

This is just a pretext for banning people that don't share your view on a subject. When I asked him about the product he used, you felt the need to answer for him rather than allow him to answer. This isn't the delicate subject of a failed HT, it's about big business justifying the huge cost of compounding low-cost meds with limited evidence.

Many people have accused you of bias and vested interest in XYON. I've avoided going down that route because it's unproductive. I'm more interested in debating the substance of the studies and hearing your views on the points I raised in your conversation with the two founders of XYON. (You are still the only user who has expressed a view in favour of topicals)

Quote

 

Another observation, having watched your video with the founder's 'Hair Transplant Network Podcast Ep #10 - XYONHealth Topical Finasteride BIG ANNOUNCEMENT!'

None of the studies independently tested to see if the product actually grew hair.
None of the studies independently tested for side effects.
The systemic reduction of DHT was 31% vs 34% (XYON fin vs Alcohol based Fin). Negligible difference when we consider its USP is the 'claimed' suspension of the drug in the skin not in the blood.

 

 

[NikosHair]

3 minutes ago, Dhhhh said:

Do you take oral ?

Religiously, but always on the lookout for an alternative to pill popping

[Gatsby]

10 minutes ago, Dhhhh said:

You stil take oral finasteride and just try to live with the side effects ?

I'm about to cease the oral version soon @Dhhhh.

[Gatsby]

Just now, Dhhhh said:

Ok I see this issue is causing you angst . Given you were pretty much bald on the top . Is your reasoning for taking fin to prevent donor hair from thinning and  hence the result of the transplant will be persevered long term ? 

Yes. It's mainly to help guard against senile alopecia in the years ahead.

[NikosHair]

1 minute ago, Dhhhh said:

If oral working and no side effects, I see no reason to consider topical 

The idea of getting the same results as oral but with less of the drugs getting into your system is attractive but as you look into the subject the flakier the evidence becomes.

What's your view on topicals having read the thread?

[12345]

14 hours ago, NikosHair said:

The idea of getting the same results as oral but with less of the drugs getting into your system is attractive but as you look into the subject the flakier the evidence becomes.

What's your view on topicals having read the thread?

From the anecdotal reports of forum users, be it here or Reddit, who do not have an agenda to push the sale of a certain product, the consensus is topical fin still results in side effects as oral fin. 

We all hoped they would be a better option, better meaning no sides with the hair preservation, but they are not there yet. 

Companies use marketing terms "liposomal" or "slow release gel" formula, but we do not know what's really in that bottle, and despite claims of the drug going minimally system or being side effect free, people are still experiencing sides from them. 

Topicals are just another option for those who do not have side effects from orals.

Of course, topical dutasteride now has this re-knew interest not that topical fin was essentially a bust,  with everyone banking that its heavier molecular weight will stop it from going systemic, but this is all in theory, and from anecdotal reports from forum users, it has caused sides in the majority of the small sample size of people who use it. And I trust these reports to be real because they are not trying to make a buck, and are giving honest feedback. 

So yes, I think as of now, topicals are a bust. 

 

 

[mustang]

Having used most orals and topicals for the past 10 years here is my 0.2:

1) They absolutely work as efficiently as oral medication, hence so many get side effects.

2) Can you use topicals to stop, slow down or even reverse hair loss without side effects? Yes.

3) What concentration is the safest? It depends on each person but as rule of thumb we see a decline of 10% serum DHT for every 1ml of 0.01% concentration on Topical Finasteride. If I use 0.025% every other day I see a decline in serum DHT of 25% after 4 weeks, if I use 0.01% the decline is marginal.

Liposomes are useful to allow more efficient drug delivery at lower concentrations.

For me using 0.01% daily (1ml) or 0.025% every other day is as high as I can go without sides.

With Topical Dutasteride it's a different story. I can get away with 1-2ml of 0.5% or even 1% if I space it once a week or even once every 2 weeks and it was extremely effective on my case.

Oral medication creates metabolites, topical does not. It is these metabolites (first liver pass) that accumulate and create side effects hence you have to wait a month to feel better after stopping oral finasteride in many cases even though the half life of the drug is 8 hours.

My advice is to use a very low dose Topical Finasteride bottle (0.01% ideally) as most people need 2ml to cover the entire recipient area (which would decrease DHT by 20%) and a stronger method once a week or once a month with Dutasteride. 

Dermarolling (Dutasteride Mesotherapy) is more effective than the above but again, spacing is mandatory, once a week all the way up to once every 3 months. It varies depending on the potency and depth you do it at.

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by mustang

[NikosHair]

2 hours ago, mustang said:

Having used most orals and topicals for the past 10 years here is my 0.2

Interesting to hear about your personal experience with topicals👍

The main takeaways from your experience are:

2 hours ago, mustang said:

3) What concentration is the safest? It depends on each person but as rule of thumb we see a decline of 10% serum DHT for every 1ml of 0.01% concentration on Topical Finasteride. If use 0.025% every other I see a decline in serum DHT of 25% after 4 weeks, if I use 0.01% the decline is marginal.

The systemic reduction in serum DHT is directly related to the dose of topical finasteride. Despite the marketing, topicals do enter the bloodstream and have a significant effect on DHT levels.

We need to be highly disciplined with the amount of product applied to the scalp. The problem for many is the larger the area of hair loss the greater the requirement to apply more product with increased risk of side effects.

On 3/30/2023 at 10:27 AM, Gatsby said:

Yes. It's mainly to help guard against senile alopecia in the years ahead.

@Gatsby highlighted an important issue. We need to consider the preservation of all areas of our hair, not just the current balding areas. If there is any credibility to the theory of localised blocking of DHT in topicals (not proven), then the product should be applied to all areas of the scalp. We then have a problem highted above with reduced serum DHT and greater risk of side effects.

[mustang]

5 hours ago, NikosHair said:

Interesting to hear about your personal experience with topicals👍

The main takeaways from your experience are:

The systemic reduction in serum DHT is directly related to the dose of topical finasteride. Despite the marketing, topicals do enter the bloodstream and have a significant effect on DHT levels.

We need to be highly disciplined with the amount of product applied to the scalp. The problem for many is the larger the area of hair loss the greater the requirement to apply more product with increased risk of side effects.

@Gatsby highlighted an important issue. We need to consider the preservation of all areas of our hair, not just the current balding areas. If there is any credibility to the theory of localised blocking of DHT in topicals (not proven), then the product should be applied to all areas of the scalp. We then have a problem highted above with reduced serum DHT and greater risk of side effects.

Yes for Topical Finasteride. Not so much for Topical Dutasteride. I tried a very large dose and it did not present the same serum DHT reduction as Finasteride, not even close, both will enter the bloodstream but Topical Dutasteride if spaced out and at a sensible dose will not have a significant effect on serum DHT levels.

I don't know of anyone who can't cover their scalp with 2ML per application but maybe there are people with a larger surface that would need an even smaller concentration of 0.005% and use 4ML. Never heard of it though.

If you are disciplined and methodical and apply it EOD your chances of halting miniaturization without side effects are quite good with low dosages.

You can also take Tongkat Ali and Zinc to block excess estrogen and 10mg oral Pregnenolone to bump up your Progesterone if you get brain fog. Nothing will be as bad as taking 1mg oral finasteride a day for those of us who are very unlucky 

There are also more natural approaches that actually do work. My brother is using topical saw palmetto with a dermaroller and has had a big change in density in 3 months (diffuse thinner, 35 years old). You just need a giant 20% concentration dose to deliver 400mg of Saw Palmetto directly to the follicle mimicking the invitro studies. 

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by mustang

[12345]

5 hours ago, mustang said:

Yes for Topical Finasteride. Not so much for Topical Dutasteride. I tried a very large dose and it did not present the same serum DHT reduction as Finasteride, not even close, both will enter the bloodstream but Topical Dutasteride if spaced out and at a sensible dose will not have a significant effect on serum DHT levels.

I don't know of anyone who can't cover their scalp with 2ML per application but maybe there are people with a larger surface that would need an even smaller concentration of 0.005% and use 4ML. Never heard of it though.

If you are disciplined and methodical and apply it EOD your chances of halting miniaturization without side effects are quite good with low dosages.

You can also take Tongkat Ali and Zinc to block excess estrogen and 10mg oral Pregnenolone to bump up your Progesterone if you get brain fog. Nothing will be as bad as taking 1mg oral finasteride a day for those of us who are very unlucky 

There are also more natural approaches that actually do work. My brother is using topical saw palmetto with a dermaroller and has had a big change in density in 3 months (diffuse thinner, 35 years old). You just need a giant 20% concentration dose to deliver 400mg of Saw Palmetto directly to the follicle mimicking the invitro studies. 

 

is he using saw palmetto extract? and is me mimicking mesotherapy with the saw palmetto? how are his side effects?

[BaldDude]

The results I've seen on Reddit for people using topicals only make me believe it is definitely not just fancy marketing. Results vary of course, just as they do with oral meds.  

Edited April 1, 2023 by BaldBobby
Spelling

[olmert]

Which company does @mustang think gives the best bang for the buck with topical dutasteride and with topical finasteride?  

[DedLifts]

I'm a month into topical Dut currently. Time will tell whether it works or not, but I weighed the financial cost and I think it's worth it. Even with buying Xyon, I can potentially ease an affliction that's caused me distress for most of my life, for less than what some people spend on a single night out.

I'm already prone to some of the conditions that 5AR inhibitors cause as sides, so I don't want to risk oral.

If someone doesn't think topicals are worth it, they shouldn't buy them. But their availability led me to starting treatment.

[Melvin- Admin]

1 hour ago, DedLifts said:

I'm a month into topical Dut currently. Time will tell whether it works or not, but I weighed the financial cost and I think it's worth it. Even with buying Xyon, I can potentially ease an affliction that's caused me distress for most of my life, for less than what some people spend on a single night out.

I'm already prone to some of the conditions that 5AR inhibitors cause as sides, so I don't want to risk oral.

If someone doesn't think topicals are worth it, they shouldn't buy them. But their availability led me to starting treatment.

Completely agree. No one is telling anyone to buy anything, taking medication is a personal decision. Any side effects? 

[DedLifts]

37 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Completely agree. No one is telling anyone to buy anything, taking medication is a personal decision. Any side effects? 

I haven't noticed any sides so far. I happened to catch COVID right after starting the medication though, so I probably need a little more time to evaluate.

[NikosHair]

3 hours ago, DedLifts said:

I'm a month into topical Dut currently. Time will tell whether it works or not, but I weighed the financial cost and I think it's worth it. Even with buying Xyon, I can potentially ease an affliction that's caused me distress for most of my life, for less than what some people spend on a single night out.

I'm already prone to some of the conditions that 5AR inhibitors cause as sides, so I don't want to risk oral.

If someone doesn't think topicals are worth it, they shouldn't buy them. But their availability led me to starting treatment.

I understand the thought process. If you have disposable income or the ability to make sacrifices in other areas, it might be worth a punt.

Keep us updated. I'm sure there will be many others in the community interested in your progress.👍

 

[NikosHair]

On 3/31/2023 at 8:55 PM, mustang said:

Yes for Topical Finasteride. Not so much for Topical Dutasteride. I tried a very large dose and it did not present the same serum DHT reduction as Finasteride, not even close, both will enter the bloodstream but Topical Dutasteride if spaced out and at a sensible dose will not have a significant effect on serum DHT levels.

As you are aware, the likely explanation for the lower effect on serum DHT levels is the molecular mass of DUT at greater than 500g/mol. Essentially it's barely penetrating skin ('500 Dalton rule'). 

While anecdotal accounts have their place, have you found any good quality studies that show topical DUT grows hair without systemic lowering DHT and without sides?

On 3/31/2023 at 8:55 PM, mustang said:

I don't know of anyone who can't cover their scalp with 2ML per application

I read multiple accounts of struggling to cover their balding areas, let alone the whole of their scalp, using the prescribed dose. Have you found some products that are better for coverage?

Edit: This was a discussion on the lack of coverage I was reading. 

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by NikosHair

[12345]

36 minutes ago, NikosHair said:

As you are aware, the likely explanation for the lower effect on serum DHT levels is the molecular mass of DUT at greater than 500g/mol. Essentially it's barely penetrating skin ('500 Dalton rule'). 

While anecdotal accounts have their place, have you found any good quality studies that show topical DUT grows hair without systemic lowering DHT and without sides?

I read multiple accounts of struggling to cover their balding areas, let alone the whole of their scalp, using the prescribed dose. Have you found some products that are better for coverage?

I have zero confidence in the whole dut being too heavy to penetrate the scalp bc its 500 dalton rule argument. Ketoconazole I believe is either the same weight or a bit heavier than Dutasteride, and I can feel the systemic effects if I use 1% keto shampoo left on the scalp for 20 min a day. 

Once again these are theories, not realities. 

[olmert]

1 hour ago, 12345 said:

I can feel the systemic effects if I use 1% keto shampoo left on the scalp for 20 min a day.

Are there a  lot of people leaving keto shampoo on for 20 minutes? I think the FDA instructions say 5 minutes. Are there people reporting 20 minutes helping? 

[Gatsby]

1 hour ago, olmert said:

Are there a  lot of people leaving keto shampoo on for 20 minutes? I think the FDA instructions say 5 minutes. Are there people reporting 20 minutes helping? 

To be honest you would really need to leave Nizoral 2%, etc, in your scalp for hours and then see after many months of this if it is improving your hair. I personally don't use this anymore. Plus it dries out my scalp and makes my hair look like straw (and it looks like straw in the morning to begin with 😉)!