Are topicals just hype and fancy marketing?

[Melvin- Admin]

2 hours ago, NikosHair said:

Given the simplicity of the test (as above), it brings us neatly back to the poll question.

Perhaps if you are raking $100+ dollars a month off each subscriber, let the hype train keep rolling and leave it as a convenient unknown🙄

 

I don’t appreciate your tone, or your accusations. I’m not making $100+ off any subscriber. That’s a false accusation. We partnered with Xyon because both Pat and I use the product, and it’s something we both believe in, just like the physicians we recommend. 

We were approached by Reviv a natural topical last year. We used it, but found it wasn’t effective, so we never partnered. You’re making all of these claims without even trying any topical. Still, you’re free to share your opinion. But when I recommend this product it’s because it works for me. 

[Melvin- Admin]

2 minutes ago, NikosHair said:

No need for a biopsy - have another read of what I wrote:

 

You need a biopsy to check scalp DHT. I don’t believe your proposed plan is a scientific approach. 

[NikosHair]

Just now, Melvin- Moderator said:

You need a biopsy to check scalp DHT.

Scalp DHT proves nothing.

Just as they did in the study you initially cited, they were interested in comparing hair growth and serum DHT levels.

[NikosHair]

7 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

I don’t appreciate your tone, or your accusations. I’m not making $100+ off any subscriber.

'You', in this context, are the companies charging $100+

Apologies for not making that clearer. 

[Melvin- Admin]

1 hour ago, NikosHair said:

Scalp DHT proves nothing.

 

If you can measure scalp DHT before treatment along with serum DHT, you could clearly assess whether topicals reduce DHT locally. 

For example, if a topical reduces 30% serum DHT, but 80% scalp DHT. That would prove that it indeed reduces DHT locally. 

After all, DHT on the scalp is what matters the most. Serum DHT levels don’t matter. 

[NikosHair]

2 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

After all, DHT on the scalp is what matters the most. Serum DHT levels don’t matter.

Can you show us the studies that support that?

The efficacy of a hair restoration product is if it grows hair not how much it reduces scalp DHT levels.

In the experiment I suggested, we would create two groups with the same serum DHT levels, but only one group would have the topical fin applied to their scalp. If it works, we should see significantly better results than the group with the topical fin applied to their neck. If we get similar results, then we can conclude it's the action of the systemic DHT.

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by NikosHair

[12345]

I think topical fin and dut are just fancy marketing. They all claim they have some gel or some liposomal formula to decrease systemic absorption, but they are all just marketing schemes to sell a "side effect free" product. They will all go systemically. The scalp is a sponge. 

Topicals are better suited as  alternatives for those who never had or tolerated side effects from oral fin or dut. They are still not an option for users who had side from oral fin or dut. 

With Xyon becoming the new sponsor of the website there has been a big push by the site to push the xyon line of products.

Not many forum users have experimented with the xyon product, but from the few reports written, it is not a side effect free option for those who have side effects from topical or oral fin in the past. These users still reported sides on this new product. The only person who has reported sides with fin in the past, but not on this new product is the moderator. Go figure. 

We will have to wait for a better version to come on the market at this point bc these formulations have not cracked the code. 

 

 

[olmert]

@12345, have a lot of people here reported side effects to topical finasteride? 

 

Most new products fade away. A few stand the test of time. Minoxidal pills have stood the test of time. PRP may or may not. The only way to know for sure topical finasteride is good is to wait a few years. 

That being said, Xyon's dutasteride at $129 is just not practical for 99% of people. That comes out to $60,000 over a 40 year period, which assumes the price stays the same. (It will only go up.) If I start now, I am sure to keep with it for 40 more years, so I see the cost as $60,000. 

A hair transplant seems more cost effective, if you have to choose.

Maybe one of the cheaper $60/month topical finasterides is better bang for the buck. I would love a post listing out the cheaper topical finasterides/dutasterides. I haven't found such a post.  

I do have a prediction. I think Xyon will go down to $60. They had no way to know the pricing point that would maximize their revenue. All the research is already done, so there is no reason not to pick the pricing point that will maximize their revenue, even if it was so expensive to develop that they end up losing money. I don't think there is demand at $129/month, which factors in both the evidence of efficacy, and how rich people are. 

Edited March 29, 2023 by olmert

[Melvin- Admin]

13 hours ago, olmert said:

@12345, have a lot of people here reported side effects to topical finasteride? 

 

Most new products fade away. A few stand the test of time. Minoxidal pills have stood the test of time. PRP may or may not. The only way to know for sure topical finasteride is good is to wait a few years. 

That being said, Xyon's dutasteride at $129 is just not practical for 99% of people. That comes out to $60,000 over a 40 year period, which assumes the price stays the same. (It will only go up.) If I start now, I am sure to keep with it for 40 more years, so I see the cost as $60,000. 

A hair transplant seems more cost effective, if you have to choose.

Maybe one of the cheaper $60/month topical finasterides is better bang for the buck. I would love a post listing out the cheaper topical finasterides/dutasterides. I haven't found such a post.  

I do have a prediction. I think Xyon will go down to $60. They had no way to know the pricing point that would maximize their revenue. All the research is already done, so there is no reason not to pick the pricing point that will maximize their revenue, even if it was so expensive to develop that they end up losing money. I don't think there is demand at $129/month, which factors in both the evidence of efficacy, and how rich people are. 

I can understand you're reasoning. My only issue is that hair transplants do not stop hair loss. You must treat the root cause of the hair loss before getting a hair transplant. You can't fix all of your hair problems with transplants. If cost is an issue, micro-dosing on oral finasteride or taking oral dutasteride once a week would be the optimal solution.  There's no need for topicals. They are a luxury in the industry. Oral medications are still very effective and very cheap.

[olmert]

1 hour ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

If cost is an issue, micro-dosing on oral finasteride

1. Is it possible that the hair benefit is exactly proportionate to the sex effect, so there is no real bargain? (In other words, micro-dosers just kind of fool themselves and suffer a sex effect too--a small one to accompany a small hair benefit.)

2. What evidence is there that micro-dosing Finasteride stops ANY hair loss?

I ask this because Dr. Damkerng Pathomvanich told me he did a study with .3 mg/day finasteride, and it found no benefit to hair loss. He told me "save your money," when I told him I wanted to micro dose. 

He told me this like 7 years ago. I haven't found the study. I'm sure the study was small. It does seem to be logical that micro dosing stops some hair loss. I've seen some other doctors recommend it, though they were relying on logic, not any study. 

[Melvin- Admin]

38 minutes ago, olmert said:

1. Is it possible that the hair benefit is exactly proportionate to the sex effect, so there is no real bargain? (In other words, micro-dosers just kind of fool themselves and suffer a sex effect too--a small one to accompany a small hair benefit.)

2. What evidence is there that micro-dosing Finasteride stops ANY hair loss?

I ask this because Dr. Damkerng Pathomvanich told me he did a study with .3 mg/day finasteride, and it found no benefit to hair loss. He told me "save your money," when I told him I wanted to micro dose. 

He told me this like 7 years ago. I haven't found the study. I'm sure the study was small. It does seem to be logical that micro dosing stops some hair loss. I've seen some other doctors recommend it, though they were relying on logic, not any study. 

I have to disagree, the correlation of side effects and efficacy are not combined. Some get no sides, others do, it has no bearing on efficacy. 

Its common knowledge based on studies that 0.2mg can significantly reducescalp DHT. 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10495374/

Now, everyone has different sensitivity to DHT. For some 0.2mg will be enough, for others it wont. Regardless, 0.2mg is better than 0. 

[olmert]

For people who have side effect from finasteride, what does @Melvin- Moderator think about taking Saw Palmetto, either with or without micro pills of finasteride? Not enough data on it? That Indian doctor Dr. Bhatti recommends it. Then again my impression is Dr Bhatti's approach is tailored toward the patient who is willing to try things that have relatively small chances of working. 

I was on Saw Palmetto. I had sexual side effects. I have no idea whether these side effects were from Saw Palmetto, oral finasteride, or my blood pressure med. I just changed my blood pressure med to try to rule out the former one as the culprit. 

It is tough when I  have three possible culprits and at the same time have to decide whether to add in a fourth possible culprit, topical finasteride.

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by olmert

[Melvin- Admin]

1 hour ago, olmert said:

For people who have side effect from finasteride, what does @Melvin- Moderator think about taking Saw Palmetto, either with or without micro pills of finasteride? Not enough data on it? That Indian doctor Dr. Bhatti recommends it. Then again my impression is Dr Bhatti's approach is tailored toward the patient who is willing to try things that have relatively small chances of working. 

I was on Saw Palmetto. I had sexual side effects. I have no idea whether these side effects were from Saw Palmetto, oral finasteride, or my blood pressure med. I just changed my blood pressure med to try to rule out the former one as the culprit. 

It is tough when I  have three possible culprits and at the same time have to decide whether to add in a fourth possible culprit, topical finasteride.

 

Saw palmetto can help, but no where near as much finasteride or dutasteride. I guess it’s better than nothing.

[NikosHair]

2 hours ago, olmert said:

I was on Saw Palmetto. I had sexual side effects.

There are far less rigorous controls on the quality control of supplements such as saw palmetto vs FDA-approved drugs.

You don't want to take a supplement from a health store to regulate something as crucial as your hormones.

[NikosHair]

Interesting observation: 10 users accounts have come out in favour of topicals yet only 1 user has voiced their support🙄

[Melvin- Admin]

40 minutes ago, NikosHair said:

Interesting observation: 10 users accounts have come out in favour of topicals yet only 1 user has voiced their support🙄

I'm not sure what you're trying to insinuate. Four people said no, and yet only two posted about it. 

[NikosHair]

7 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

I'm not sure what you're trying to insinuate. Four people said no, and yet only two posted about it. 

The poll was conducted to hear the views.

Quote

It would be interesting to hear your views and the study is a good starting point to support your views, either way.

The observation is 50% of the Yes vote have expressed a view and only 20% of the No vote (1 user and 1 non-user).

[Melvin- Admin]

18 minutes ago, NikosHair said:

The poll was conducted to hear the views.

The observation is 50% of the Yes vote have expressed a view and only 20% of the No vote (1 user and 1 non-user).

Maybe people aren’t interested in arguing or being accused of having ulterior motives like you did with @Gatsby

[NikosHair]

Another observation, having watched your video with the founder's 'Hair Transplant Network Podcast Ep #10 - XYONHealth Topical Finasteride BIG ANNOUNCEMENT!'

1. None of the studies independently tested to see if the product actually grew hair.
2. None of the studies independently tested for side effects.
3. The systemic reduction of DHT was 31% vs 34% (XYON fin vs Alcohol based Fin). Negligible difference when we consider its USP is the 'claimed' suspension of the drug in the skin not in the blood.

[NikosHair]

7 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Maybe people aren’t interested in arguing or being accused of having ulterior motives like you did with @Gatsby

Oh the drama😊 -  It was entirely reasonable given his unqualified support for topicals to establish if he actually used the stuff and if he did (which he didn't) was a freebie or paid for out of his hard-earned cash.

[Gatsby]

@NikosHair if it’s anarchy you’re after then you’ve come to the wrong forum. I (like 99.9% of others) am here to help our brothers and sisters when it comes to hair loss. The only time you will hear me being critical and negative is when surgeons knowingly butcher patients for money. Otherwise everyone here is supportive in the pain hair loss can cause for an individual. If you’re chasing negativity for the sake of it you might get the response you want elsewhere. Here I really enjoy being involved in trying to help others as does @Melvin- Moderator of all people and many, many other people. I don’t have the time to waste in being negative here or anywhere for that matter. Take that in the vein that it is meant. 

[NikosHair]

4 minutes ago, Gatsby said:

@NikosHair if it’s anarchy you’re after then you’ve come to the wrong forum. I (like 99.9% of others) am here to help our brothers and sisters when it comes to hair loss. The only time you will hear me being critical and negative is when surgeons knowingly butcher patients for money. Otherwise everyone here is supportive in the pain hair loss can cause for an individual. If you’re chasing negativity for the sake of it you might get the response you want elsewhere. Here I really enjoy being involved in trying to help others as does @Melvin- Moderator of all people and many, many other people. I don’t have the time to waste in being negative here or anywhere for that matter. Take that in the vein that it is meant. 

It's healthy to have a debate over the finding of studies. Imagine if I had created the poll and allowed one answer. Is that the positivity you are looking for?

Topical Fin/Dut have not received FDA approval. Therefore, it is entirely reasonable we try to understand the benefits of these products. The industry has been plagued with false promises and snake oils salesmen. Topicals have some encouraging data but there are major questions to be answered. Not least because many of the people looking for hope in these product are desperate for answers and may not have the level of disposable income to support these high-priced subscriptions.

I embrace the debate as you do. I heard your contribution on the Bald Truth last week with Dr Anderson. There was a lot of scepticism in the studio as I recall.

 

 

 

[Gatsby]

4 minutes ago, NikosHair said:

It's healthy to have a debate over the finding of studies. Imagine if I had created the poll and allowed one answer. Is that the positivity you are looking for?

Topical Fin/Dut have not received FDA approval. Therefore, it is entirely reasonable we try to understand the benefits of these products. The industry has been plagued with false promises and snake oils salesmen. Topicals have some encouraging data but there are major questions to be answered. Not least because many of the people looking for hope in these product are desperate for answers and may not have the level of disposable income to support these high-priced subscriptions.

I embrace the debate as you do. I heard your contribution on the Bald Truth last week with Dr Anderson. There was a lot of scepticism in the studio as I recall.

 

 

 

I asked what are my options as I get side effects from oral finasteride. It was not about this thread nor was it about you.

[NikosHair]

12 minutes ago, Gatsby said:

I asked what are my options as I get side effects from oral finasteride. It was not about this thread nor was it about you.

I always value your contributions on there. You asked if it's worth trying topicals and specifically referenced the XYON product and it's suspended delivery method. That was where the scepticism occurred. (around the 1 hour mark on the youTube vid)

The point I'm making is ... it's an ongoing debate and collectively we are all looking for answers.

[Gatsby]

Yes. Good point.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Gatsby