Are Costs for FUE Reasonable?

[Bill - Seemiller]

Dear members,

 

FUE in particular has become exceedingly popular in balding men who desire to keep their hair cropped short on the sides and back of their head. Though both FUT/strip via microscopic dissection and FUT via FUE cause some scarring, the main advantage of FUE is that it does not create a linear scar like FUT via strip. However historically, consistency in hair growth yield and price have deterred many away from FUE.

 

Recently, members got into a debate about whether or not the costs physicians charge for FUE are reasonable on Cymru1980's FUE surgical experience page. Unfortunately, the debate started to get personal and brought a member's results thread off topic.

 

Members who want to continue to respectfully debate whether or not the costs of FUE are reasonable are welcome to do so here. However, do remember that our community promotes respect and doesn't tolerate personal mudslinging or profanity.

 

I look forward to hearing your points of view.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[Ronald]

In my opinion, FUE costs are reasonable.

 

Compare the costs vs benefits for all medical ht treatments:

 

50 year cost of Propecia @ $70 CDN per month: $42,000. Best case benefits, some hair regrowth (if you are VERY lucky) and hair stabilization . $42K is expensive for this benefit if you ask me. And yes, I know Proscar is much cheaper and I think its highly unlikely that Propecia will be around for 50 years since there will likely be better treatments discovered.

 

50 year cost of Rogaine @ $63 CDN per month: $38,000, with similar benefits as Propecia. Again $38K seems expensive for the benefits received, esp when they are not guaranteed to last.

 

6000 FUE grafts (average donor density) @ $6 per graft: $36,000. The benefit being that your hair is spread out over your balding area for the rest of your life. At a cheaper price than Propecia and Rogaine with MORE benefits....there is no question that $6 per FUE graft is reasonable.

 

Even if you pay $12 per FUE graft with Dr. Bernstein or $10 per FUE graft with Feller, you are still getting more bang for your buck than with Propecia and Rogaine.

 

Why people would pay A LOT more to go with those docs, I dont know since there are cheaper docs who provide similar results.....but we operate in a free market and that is their prerogative to pay more........

 

To those who complain about Feller's high prices, I have simple advice: DON'T GO WITH HIM. I'm going with Shapiro for FUE and will get similar results than with Feller but I will never disrespect those who do choose Feller, even if I would never in a million years pay more than the market value for a service without significant value added. The bottom line is that picking a ht doc is a very personal choice and people should not be bashed for it.....esp when Feller produces great work and provides good serice.

[HairHope]

6-$7 is reasonable and likely to be the price across the board IMO over the long term.

 

Strip use to be very expensive, the prices have plummeted with larger sessions.

 

That is my opinion, and please take your caps off and don't shout.

[Ronald]

My apologies for the CAPS LOCK.

 

I am a very passionate guy who means well but sometimes I get carried away and HAVE TROUBLE RESISTING THE URGE TO STAY AWAY FROM THE CAPS LOCK KEY!

 

Regardless, I thought my cost benefit analysis of the various hair loss treatments was solid.

[HairHope]

Ronald,

 

We are all in this difficult situation together, although we wish to wake up in the morning with all our hair back - it continues to be a long and often stressful endeavour.

 

Your passion is clear and that is good, there are lots of opinions here - and often from very different perspectives. It is usually best to not get into personal debates, IMO.

 

You did an excellent analysis, however I would say they over-estimate a little since, it is unlikely we will be on these meds for 50 years...I hope! lol.

 

Thanks.

 

Originally posted by Ronald:

My apologies for the CAPS LOCK.

 

I am a very passionate guy who means well but sometimes I get carried away and HAVE TROUBLE RESISTING THE URGE TO STAY AWAY FROM THE CAPS LOCK KEY!

 

Regardless, I thought my cost benefit analysis of the various hair loss treatments was solid.

[Ronald]

Yeah agreed, can't wait for the day that we get a new hair loss treatment!

 

Heres to hoping for hair cloning soon!

[thanatopsis_awry]

The price of FUE is precisely where it should be. The crux is that there is competition, incentive, and diversity of choice at play -- and there is. The specific #s associated with given doctors are really irrelevant, insofar as the aforementioned variables are in play. The #s that tag along for the ride are what they are; attempting to infiltrate (aside from simply not partaking and validating) in what a given doctor charges isn't just ineffective, but counterproductive in the horrible precadent it sets were other people to actually follow suit and play the same game. A million lines in the sand can be drawn from a million people in a million different places and none carry more individual worth, justice, righteousness, or fairness than the other.

 

Wanting to play economic King Kong and make blazing (and blazingly subjective and relative) statements about what a given doctor "should" be charging re-directs where the focus should be, and infuses the arena with unnecessary emotion that simply isn't germane. You can postulate -- and speculate -- on what a doctor *could* charge, but the same can't be said for what a doctor *should* charge. And traffic moves both ways, of course: Dr. X could possibly go from 10/g to 7/g; he could also quite easily go to 11/g and make more money. Is he now a saint for not going to 11/g?

 

In actuality, there is a clear downward trend in the price of FUE, while the quality remains on the rise. We truly couldn't ask -- nor should we want -- much more.

[notjustyet]

and infuses the arena with unnecessary emotion

 

haha...if that aint the kettle callin the pot black...

 

There arent enough FUE docs to bring prices down to a more reasonable level. The last thing we need is the demand side cheerleading some of the highest prices on the supply side.

 

having had a number of elective surgeries I can tell you I have negotiated them ALL down to reasonable amounts....often reductions of 25%...I got the docs I wanted at the price I thought was fair based on comparable market pricing/locations ect. With FUE its a supply side issue...plain and simple..I refuse to cheerlead a docs prices when I know if there was more competition amazingly his price would go down. Does that mean one less country club membership? Maybe a few more patients than desired?

 

Strip prices keep getting lower and lower..but how? Doesnt take teh same amount of techs ect? Competition..plain and simple..

[thanatopsis_awry]

You're incorrect on two levels, firstly. I've simply been calling out and dissecting your emotions, which you've continued into this post; more importantly, the expression you're trying to label me with is "pot calling the kettle black".

 

Anyways, I know facts can be stubborn things, so I'll reiterate one last time what has already been said, and what can already be gleaned by the cold hard facts of reality -- the price of FUE *is* going down, as it already *has* gone down. This is a fact. So your entire first paragraph, including the emotional-label of calling people who disagree with you "cheerleaders" is 100% incorrect.

 

You don't like to cheerlead for "docs prices", but I do wish you'd cheerlead for the facts that exist and are being reiterated in this (and other) threads for your consumption, instead of rehashing your emotional, subjective desires and projecting that onto what you think society must look like and how private enterprise operates.

 

Your second paragraph suffers from the same ailment as your first -- it is based in non-reality, as there is excellent competition within FUE, with an upward trend. This is a fact. And as I already stated, the competition is on the rise. This is a process. It isn't static, it is dynamic, it is in play, and it is moving along at an excellent pace. You seem more concerned with wanting to control how much money an individual can make than the actual events going on that actually impact the very thing you purport to be so concerned with -- that is, competition within FUE, and the subsequent drive of the price becoming more competitive across the HT landscape.

 

This is what's happening, whether or not it perfectly conforms with your obsession over how wealthy and luxurious the lives of skilled, effective doctors are living.

 

PS I think Dr. Feller is a saint for not raising his FUE price to 11/graft. How could you not agree with me when he could so easily be charging more than what he currently charges and make even more money to gain even more country club memberships?

 

PPS The very real, very important facet of this discussion that hasn't even been discussed is the incentive for doctors to spend their money/time on braving new advancements in FUE, expressly benefiting patients worldwide, and one in the same serving to ultimately lower the price of FUE as productivity and ability increases. Ironically, yet not actually surprising, Dr. Feller is an absolute leader in this regard.

[aaron1234]

If only more people had Thana's understanding of a free-market economy. What you saw with strip costs will happen with FUE in due time.

[thanatopsis_awry]

I just read Bill's post in the other thread that spawned this one. And I agree in large part with what was said -- I draw a distinction, however, with what NotJustY is saying.

 

Dr's prices won't move in perfect harmony; Dr. Feller charging 10/g doesn't truly reflect the state of FUE. Perhaps, because Dr. Feller has charged 10/g, and because of his drive to advance FUE, it has helped pave the way for what has happened: other doctors advancing and mastering FUE, and other doctors charging less. SMG is a perfect example of this, but they aren't the only doctors to recently become more and more immersed in FUE.

 

I would not assail Bill's position. What I do assail his NotJustY's position which *itself* is assailing others. The irony is the very people he is personally assailing (e.g. Dr. Feller and those who don't want to publically flog him for his pricing) are the very people who are integral in the *process* of competition and the lowering of FUE's price.

[shanti]

I recently had 487 FUE with Dr Feller and only paid for 400, which works out at $8 a graft. Seems to be common practice with Dr Feller.

[Ron J]

Originally posted by notjustyet:

Feller would still be able to afford his nice home and cars at $8 as he does at $10, I assure you he isnt hurting...you guys kill me..qouting me karl Marx and saying I make you sick or dont understand economics. "YOU LIE!"

 

You at one and the same time want to say that Feller could essentially still have a nice life if he charged you less for FUE - AND - mock the Karl Marx refference w/respect to your ideology?

 

-What does it matter at ALL how nice of a life Feller could still have if he charged less?

-Who are you to determine how much someone should charge for their skills and make as a living?

-If you can get *just* as good results from someone else who charges less, than simply go to them.

-If feller is indeed one of a select few in the world who can produce high quality FUE, then he is effectively a rare commodity amidst a a large population of men desiring the procedure; so supply and demand dictates and thus he's still in business. If he was charging such exorbitant, inflated prices, then he'd go out of business.

 

And yes, I would tell you all of this in person; but I wouldn't be so inclined to engage in physical violence as you, merely because we hold conflicting ideologies w/respect to your "I'd floor you pretty quick" comment. Essentially, that's precisely the difference between your ideology and mine: I don't dictate, demand, and FORCE that my beliefs be put into practice by other people, I merely STATE mine in opposition; and in my world view I have room for you to have an opposing world view

[ScottishGuy]

Originally posted by Ronald:

In my opinion, FUE costs are reasonable.

 

Compare the costs vs benefits for all medical ht treatments:

 

50 year cost of Propecia @ $70 CDN per month: $42,000.

 

50 year cost of Rogaine @ $63 CDN per month: $38,000.

 

6000 FUE grafts (average donor density) @ $6 per graft: $36,000.

 

For the benefit of anyone looking at this analysis in the future, we don't want to imply that these options are mutually exclusive - if you undertake an HT you're also committing yourself to take propecia for the rest of your life (based on current treatment options) so the total cost could be $78,000.

[TC17]

This topic is devolving into nothing more than personal attacks. Such behavior detracts from the stated goal of Bill's post, diminishes the credibility of the posters involved, and makes the site less informative for all members.

 

What everyone must realize is that each of you are merely using a different point of authority for your viewpoints. While Ron J's characterization of Marxism is not 100% accurate, I do not think he is wrong in his belief that highly skilled doctors can charge whatever they want for their services. Likewise, notjustyet is also not wrong in his belief that just because a doctor can charge whatever he wants, doesn't mean that he should. Attacking one another because you share different ideologies is absurd.

 

The truth is that notjustyet is right that there are not enough top notch FUE practitioners to really affect the price of the procedure, and even if there were, that would not guarantee a drop in prices. For every member who is extolling the virtues of unchecked capitalism, I ask that you read your history books and look at what laisezz faire economics did in the past. There are reasons why we have a mixed economy today, why businesses are not allowed to regulate themselves, and why monopolies are illegal.

 

I happen to agree that FUE is priced too high right now, and because of that, I will not go to a physician that charges what I believe are exorbitant fees.

 

Last, notjustyet, like all members, has the right to voice his opinion on matters that call for an opinion response. To say that he has no right to say that a doctor should charge less for his services is nonsensical. He is well within his rights to voice that opinion, just as the doctor is to ignore it and continue charging what he charges for his services.

 

In all cases there will be those who support businesses and those that support the consumers. There is no need to attack any member for supporting one or the other.

[HairHope]

You guys are hilarious, I said the same exact thing in my discussion here with Dr. Feller, only with a lot less BS in-between.

 

You guys are easily impressed! LOL

 

Originally posted by aaron1234:

If only more people had Thana's understanding of a free-market economy. What you saw with strip costs will happen with FUE in due time.

[HairHope]

Originally posted by shanti:

I recently had 487 FUE with Dr Feller and only paid for 400, which works out at $8 a graft. Seems to be common practice with Dr Feller.

 

This would be my expectations, I had mine for $5.00 by a non-rookie...just for FYI.

[notjustyet]

When the first hurricane hit South Florida back in 05 many people were concerned and found they needed to board uup their windows and buy a generator ect. Some free market entrepreneurs came up with the idea of rushing to all the home depots and buying all the generators they could get their oohh so smart and entrepreneur hands on. They then sat out in front of said stores and sold the generators for three times the price they just bought them for. Supply and demand right!? Based on a free market and taking all emotions or morals out of the equation they SHOULD be able to do this. After all they are merely providing a product that was in high demand. All of you completely free market thinks SHOULD NOT in this situation determine any moral highground or condemnation..if you do then you are justifying my opinion IN SOME WAY with FUE costs..

 

Not a perfect example of how you can abuse anything (i.e. few good fue docs so charge what you want). But it makes my point...just because you CAN do something in our free market doesnt mean we dont recognize price gouging and call it what it is.

 

I believe a good doc can charge more than an average one..but TWICE as much? Thats gouging in my opinion..both docs have fixed costs.

[thanatopsis_awry]

We have a climate where doctors *are* charging *far* less than "Dr. Feller", with a downward trend with quality on the rise, yet a few still want to gripe and bemoan how bad things are because the entire economic landscape isn't tailor-made to their express wants.

 

This has nothing to do with "unchecked" capitalism, because the very situation itself is a testament to the excellence of capitalism itself. And aside from the political tripe masquerading as objective academic text, history books show and mirror this, as well.

 

NotJust is not being told to not voice his opinion. He isn't a victim fighting against oppressors; he is simply debating on some of the brazen things he has said. The irony, of course, is that NotJust is the only one who took it upon himself to personally assail others, as he couldn't keep his emotions in check with his (political) views that leaked over into the HT world.

 

Anyways, in his last few posts, (particularly), NotJust has shown his true colors, and this is really no longer about the actual going ons of the price of FUE so much as it is a fruitless school session on the merits of free market economy vs. neo-marxism.

 

Again, Dr. Feller is a saint because he isn't charging 11/g and lining his pockets with more country club memberships.

[notjustyet]

Again, Dr. Feller is a saint because he isn't charging 11/g and lining his pockets with more country club memberships.

 

wow.. this one statement shows where we differ.. I think he CAN charge what he wants but hes NOT a SAINT for not abusing it further?

 

And why do you INSIST on labeling me? Is that the "worldview" that you have...EVERYTHING must be painted in politics?

 

BTW you couldnt have guessed futher from the truth..I do however have a major issue with price gouging...its exactly that type of behavior why capitalism DOES have its detractors throughout the world.. Unchecked it is ripe for abuse from amoral characters.

[hairthere]

notjust, without knowing operating costs, how can you accuse someone of price gouging? what if dr. feller's overhead is four times what another doc who is charging less for fue? you should really understand the big picture before coming to conclusions...

[notjustyet]

I would assume Dr Feller has not knowingly chosen a place of business that would incur FOUR TIMES the costs of doing business elsewhere..thats my first assumption. And BTW, he says he is inline with costs of doing business as those in the midwest..well, actually that THEIR costs would be similar to his..

 

its simple guys..I see pics of results from other docs who do fue..they look good and they charge less. Honestly you all act as if the doc does eveything from start to finish..I think the tech team is just as important as the doc..they do alot of the work..get a bad tech and your results are bad...period.

 

I dont think DR.Feller incurs any substantial costs that would require him to charge up to 60% more for FUE than other competent docs. Maybe he keeps his office really cool so he has higher A/C bills?

 

read the posts from his patients..seems like a simple business operation he is running..no different than that of other docs....I dont read anything about massages or free dinners and hotel stays..

 

BTW I am not a victim....I just call price gouging when I see it...and I call out rude people too.. i dont think any of you who hold opposing views are trying to KING KONG your views or are passive-aggressive..or are liberal..or conservative.

 

its amazing how consumers of HT can be SSSSOOOOOOOOOOO aggressive about supporting higher prices for FUE... its weird.. youd think actual consumers would be advocating for lower prices or at least prices that are reflective towards the norm..

[hairthere]

notjust, you are mistaken if you think prices are not higher in new york than in the midwest. rents are higher and employees get paid more. also, if dr. f is price gouging with his fue, then why doesn't he also gouge with his strip prices?

[thanatopsis_awry]

It's difficult to actually debate you, but I can't resist diving back in with your latest doozy: so, you are all about "price gouging" now, eh?

 

This latest remark has zero basis in reality. Price gouging itself is a totally oblique phrase, best used specifically as a legal term when defending/attacking nefarious individuals during a time of crisis. That aside, it a vague, nasty aspersion with the notion that a person is unfairly hiking prices in a marketplace lacking necessary competition to create more -- and less expensive -- options.

 

The problem -- for you -- is that reality flies directly in the face of this. There is *excellent* competition within FUE, and it is on a sharp, *upward* trend. There *are* less expensive, excellent options for FUE arising and that *do* exist. At the same time -- and led by Dr. Feller -- there is a wondrous wave of innovation to serve the public while one in the same facilitating the very environment necessary *to* have varied, lower pricing options with high quality.

 

What's next, NotJust -- is Dr. Feller going to be profiteering, spearheading monopolies, and that'l be the crux of your crusade?

[Bill - Seemiller]

Guys,

 

I started this topic thinking that we could have an intellectual debate without resorting to personal attacks and mudslinging. Is that too much to ask?

 

After reading all the comments on this thread, I have edited and removed those that contained personal insults respectively. I left the majority of the posts alone and though, some of them were quite passionate, they weren't personally insulting. It's the tendency of taking these passionate posts personally that have led to members insulting others. Perhaps some ought not to take things so personally?

 

I will leave this thread open for now. However, if I see this topic continuing to spiral downward, I will have no choice but to close it.

 

I happen to stand between the two extreme points of view I've seen presented on this thread (in between the personal insults). Whereas all physicians are welcome to charge what they want, I do tend to believe some physicians are priced a little too high. This of course, is my personal opinion. There are also a few strip doctors charging above what I consider is reasonable when considering average cost. While I'd select a physician based on skill and a proven track record of excellent results first, price will effect my final choice when deciding between elite physicians.

 

Just as physicians have the choice to charge what they want, patients have the choice to select a physician they want. Though I agree that there aren't a plethera of physicians experienced with follicular unit extraction, there are enough choices if patients don't like the price of a particular surgeon.

 

There's nothing wrong with dissonance, as long as it's presented in the spirit of respect. Carry on.

 

Bill