shanti

I do remember the name confusion I'm away this weekend but I'll get some pics up next week. Thats a promise !

I promise the photos are coming. I won't leave with out a proper update. Grafts?... I reckon about 2000 unfortunately. I could add it up but I don't need to know. I would however say 500-700 of those were wasted. It wasn't a large area but what I learnt is that you always need more grafts than you think to try and recreate your "expected" natural density. I didn't want a strip scar at the time and now I'm so pleased I don't. However I agree 1 large FUT session may have been better possibly in my case. However I am aware that if I'd done that with my first doctor back in 2001 I'd probably be in a right pickle now. I'm lucky that I only had a relatively small FUE session which could be fixed. A FUT megasession with a poor doctor would have been a nightmare. 600 badly placed FUE was bad enough!! I thought (probably like most of us do) that I'd nail it first time and I could get on with my life back in 2001. Not the case. It took me 10 years and 7 surgeries to finally hit my goal..... and that's with the internet, these forums, no expense spared, zero travel restrictions and using the top notch recommended doctors. The top 5 docs of their time. One way or another it's worked out eventually but it not a decision to take lightly. It's an intense ride !

Hi Dan, You may want to read my post "7 FUE's and counting". You're in good hands with Dr Feller. All the best Shanti

Update..... I haven't been on the forums for a long time. Don't suppose they've found a cure yet?? It's been 1 year and 4 months since my last surgery with Dr Feller. The grafts grew in as expected and the hairline filled nicely. I can't pin the timing down but one day my hair definitely became less of an issue. My haircuts seemed to improve and I just felt satisfied for the first time in a long time about my hair and hairline. Not quite "wash & go" but it's pretty damn close Then I guess I just drifted away from the forums. Never really thought that would happen but it took a follow up email from Spex to remind me about this place and to log in. It's taken 7 surgeries and a load of time and cash, but I can honestly say I don't need any further hair. The hairline is now very, very natural and a "home run" as they say. I'm sure I will lose further hair as I age but I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. (I'm 36 now). So for now I'm done. It's been a pretty nasty journey and a couple of years back I did regret ever starting.... but now on reflection, I'm happy that I did. My prior surgeries (before finding Dr. Feller) didn't live up to expectation. I'm sure they are good doctors in their own right but maybe a combination of my hair/ scalp characteristics and their technique didn't quite compliment each other. Who knows? What I do know is that Dr Feller fixed me .....and for that my biggest thanks of course goes to him and his team. It took me 4 surgeries to find him but since meeting him there has always been light at the end of the tunnel. Thanks Alan. A huge thanks goes also to Spex. He's been there all the way through. He's a legend in his own right and I know I won't be the last guy he helps. Cheers buddy !! And finally, the HTN publishers, moderators and its posters. This forum has been an invaluable source of information. It's also been a reliable and trusted companion when feeling down about all this hair loss crap... So a big thanks to all that make these forums happen and wish you all a very hairy 2011. I will update with photos and I'll answer any questions anyone may have but I doubt I'll be logging on much anymore. So I guess this is Shanti ... signing out

i lost weight just reading that ;-)

The hair at the back of the head will have thicker shafts and hold more pigment (i think that makes sense). It's usually always coarser, thicker and darker than the thinner miniaturising hairline hairs.

I've had a few zig zag hairs, in fact I have one now from a FUE surgery 5 months ago. In my experience they do relax and straighten after a few hair growth cycles. It may take a couple of years but they usually will normalise. However, the colour won't change.

Jones was around 900 and then I had another 800 planted by other doctors before I went to see Feller. Feller has planted something like 700 grafts now but to be honest I've lost count. 7 FUE surgeries to date. It's best to discuss this with your doc as this plan of attack may not suit your situation. Do you have a photo?.... while I'm no doctor I might be able to see if you're in a similar position.

Welcome to my world. Dr Jones planted the hairs vertically in my hairline/ temples. Obviously this wasn't how nature intended but he wasn't to know this as I think he had his eyes closed. My natural hairs point forward and the bend down over my forehead after they reach a certain length as is typical.......My Jones HT hairs point straight up. I had more put in over the years by different doctors to increase the density but this actually just added to the problem in hindsight. Then recently Feller under my instruction placed hairs at acute angles and forward in amongst the vertical hairs, concentrating especially along the hairline. It's worked. We've had to lower the hairline slightly to accommodate them but the fact that these new hairs are at a different angle they actually help create more density than if they we're all pointing the same direction. They cross each other creating a "lattice", therefore preventing light passing through and cutting out the see through look. It may not work for you but for me my correctly angled Feller hairs along the hairline are styled forwards and down and then they blend slowly into the more vertical hairs behind. They form a slowly increasing angle from nearly flat (180 degrees) at the hairline, slowly increasing in angle upto the "bad" vertical hairs behind at 90 degrees. Photos wouldn't show it any better than my description. It just looks normal now.

I will add that to hide it was the right thing to do for me. It really does depend on your circumstance. If you are in a very stable relationship or you're married then fine, tell the girl. Honesty in this instance is definitely the best policy. But when I first started having HT's I was in my 20's and had different girlfriends. I now know that one or two of them I wouldn't trust with the information. It's ok bringing people into your "circle of trust" if that circle stays under your control but for me it was too big a risk and in hindsight my "secret" would probably be on Facebook by now! I now have a long term girlfriend who I intend to marry. She doesn't know but she may do one day. For now my HT is undetectable and not an issue, so there's no need to bring it up. I'd like to keep it my secret for now and potentially forever if nature is kinder to me from here on. Shanti

It's possible but not easy and I'm sure you're not alone. I'm certainly guilty as charged. 1st I was run over by a bus. Not badly but just enough to have my head bandaged up. 2nd I was supposedly investigating real estate prices in Asia....for quite a while. I even set up an online virtual receptionist to take my calls. Insane. 3rd Grazed my head on "hard"?? snow while snowboarding... (good grief, can't believe where I was going with that one. Seemed believable at the time). 4th Think I could hide that one without an excuse (postage stamp FUE). 5th The attachment broke on the clippers and it gashed my head something terrible ... that was a good one. Should have sued Wahl ;-) 6th Business trip .... and then with and splash of dermatch easily hidden. 7th Same. No one knows... they just think I'm rather accident prone. Shanti

Quick update...... it's been 3 months since the surgery. Healing was quick and easy. No real signs of growth yet but that's to be expected. I held onto a few hairs but most shed so no real change in appearance. The usual stuff. However this time, to take my mind of the wait, I've managed to shift my focus onto my health and body. I'll mention it because it's been so effective in improving my mental state during the doldrums. Since I've spent a small fortune over the years on my head, I though the rest of me could do with a little attention. I've never been overweight but I was developing a bit of a belly thanks to a relaxed diet and beer. By hitting the gym 3 times a week for 40mins and running 3 days a week for 40 mins in the morning before breakfast, I've completely changed my body composition. I've cleaned up my diet but cheat one day over the weekend. The result is that at 35 i'm in better shape than I've ever been. The main benefit however is that I'm not staring at my head waiting for the hair to grow. I can't do anything about that, I just have to have faith in Dr Feller and let nature take it's course. Instead I'm focusing on my body, which I do have the power to do something about. When the hair grows in, it'll be the icing on the cake (God I miss cake :-), and I'm hoping people will notice my healthier appearance as an overall improvement and so they won't notice the hairline. At the end of the day, hairs all about vanity and confidence. I really recommend using the HT waiting period to give the rest of you a little TLC because the final package will really compliment the hair transplant. Have a great Christmas everyone. I'll update again when I see some growth. Shanti

I've gotta admit that the email Pats sent requesting your login details has floored me. Pats could be writing up/ editing all the result stories on that site. Does Hairsite know they are doing this? While I'm not a fan of Armani's work, I've tried to keep a balanced view and saw Pats etc as just defending Armani and protecting the "brand" as they call it. Fine..... but when I read this about them requesting login details for personal user accounts, that changes everything. I can't quite believe it. Is this really the case. Seems this rabbit hole goes deeper than I first thought.

Neck lift is another type of surgery. Neck lift involves cutting and tightening the platysma muscle (neck muscle). It's a bigger procedure and a general anaesthetic. Lipo involves just sucking out the fat. Look into Smart Lipo (laser) or Vaser Lipo (ultrasonics) for removing the fat. Quick procedure and only a local anaesthetic.

There is a lot of anger directed at Armani and I wonder how it sits with him. It obviously can't be great for business but I doubt it's had a huge impact based on his reach. To be fair to the doctor he is a skilled surgeon. He can and does get good results. He can extract and plant grafts and the results can sometimes look very good when supported by native hair. The problem I see is that he applies the same "brute force" technique to each and every patient. It's his chosen technique that's at fault and it was inevitable that the results would catch up with him. If you pack in big numbers a low yield will still look fine. Lowering the hairline and closing the temples will make someone look more youthful, which let's face it, is the name of the game. For some it will work. Someone with minimal hairloss who will maintain and has resilient scalp hairs that can withstand the trauma will probably look pretty good, possibly for life. That's his ideal market. Unfortunately they aren't many of those long term. For everyone of these lucky patients, there will be many more who don't have these ideal characteristics, their hair may shock or their MPB will progress and they will have real issues a few years down the line. What Armani calls " Zone 1 at MEDIUM density and zone 2 at LOW density" on Chanyouzhe, is HIGH density when compared to most other doctors. This is what has caused the shock on Chanyouzhe. I'm only expressing my opinions and I don't know hair/ surgery like Armani and Pats, but I have to ask Pats something. Pats... is Armani's statement saying that Chanyouzhe's hairloss in the areas transplanted is the result of his natural MPB progression that would have occurred in the same timescale with or without surgery? Would he really have naturally progressed to a Norwood 6 in 10 months? That's how it reads but is this actually what is implied?

This is a sad case and I really feel for you Chanyouze. It's also sad that the Armani clinic is behaving the way it is but I guess it's damage limitation and they have to stand by their technique. Chanyouze has had a failed surgery. There's no getting round that. The hair transplant hasn't improved his appearance and he would without a doubt look better now if he hadn't had the surgery. In Chanyouze 5 and 8 month pictures it's actually zone 3 that looks the MOST dense and as Pats said "Alvi Armani DID NOT work in zone 3". Go figure! The areas where Armani DID work (1,2 and 4) look thinner. It's pretty obvious that Chanyouze suffered significant shockloss in the areas where Armani dense packed. This visible shockloss at 5 and 8 months has failed to return and coupled with a low yield, Chanyouze has been left with a poor cosmetic result. Patient characteristics do come into play to be fair to Armani and even the most careful doctors can cause shockloss but dense packing is a risk, we know that. That's why most doctors avoid it and I don't think any go anywhere near as dense as the "Armani technique" for that very reason. There's always going to be a greater risk of shockloss and low yield by going in ultra dense with big numbers. Quite simply, more trauma is inflicted and there is a greater risk of the native hairs not recovering. I think it's unfair for Pats/ Armani to imply that the end result is a consequence of natural progressive hairloss. Shifting the blame completely onto Chanyouze is bad form. He hasn't continued to "loose hair in the areas transplanted", his scalp has gone through a major trauma as a result of the dense pack and his existing hair has been destroyed/ damaged. "Following the post operative instructions exactly", will do nothing now. The damage has been done by the surgery but I hope for Chanyouze's sake that the damaged native follicles will recover given time. Pats/Armani is correct when they say that you are not at your final result. I don't know how they had the audacity to write their other comments but at least they're right about waiting for another 5 months. Further surgery isn't advised at this stage in my opinion. Fingers crossed, there is still a chance your native hairs will eventually recover and give you back your density. Hang in there mate.

Thanks Balboa ..... ...but with regards "depending" on a future with unlimited donor hair, I personally find that very risky. Now this is just my opinion and I may be totally wrong so I don't wish to scare anyone but I think it's best forgetting about hair neo-genesis until it is actually commercially available and tested. They maybe be able to replace/ clone many parts of the human body, (not just hair), in the future but you've still got to look after what you've got now, wether it be for health or vanity reasons. I'm not going to pickle my liver now just because I may be able to grab a new one in the future. The research is there and it's potentially a viable future solution so why not? Extreme example sure but for us vain lot, hair can sometimes feel like a vital organ. Certainly its loss has a very real mental health, if not physical impact so you must treat it with care because it can't be replaced. Ok, great if it happens.... the "cure" for baldness would be an amazing feat, but cures don't come along very often.... and as far as I understand they will be planting a cultured "cell", (not a hair) into the skin. Even if they get the cell to grow, how will they consistently control the direction of the growth of the emerging hair? I know from experience that it's hard enough planting a scalp donor hair to create a cosmetically acceptable appearance (angle, graft rotation, direction etc), so if these "cells" decide to grow in different directions, even if you have an endless supply you're going to need a hell of a lot of hair gel to make them lie in the same direction when they grow out. Chances are you're going to get much better results planting existing scalp hair than cultured hair cells for the foreseeable future and it's the "quality" not the "quantity" that makes a good transplant. The way I see it, it's best to plan to avoid the worst case scenario. There are only 3 real situations so the choice isn't difficult. Excess hair (neo-genesis or very fortunate with minimal future loss), Enough/ Just Enough hair (careful planning) or Not Enough hair (oh dear). If hair neo-genesis does happen and it doesn't just look like a birds nest on your head, then you're sorted. If it doesn't happen very quickly or not at all, you'll spend your life waiting and hoping for the cure to come. The waiting will be the hardest part especially as your native hair won't be waiting for anyone. Anyway back to my point... I think it's wise to plan for the future without the idea of a golden ticket for a cure and avoid any doctor that tells you otherwise. In 20-30 years you won't need to look like a GQ model, you'll be happy just to have your health, look like you've aged well and not have the largest collection of hats out of all your friends. Shanti

No worries Matt, Anyway, Armani's had a bit of a bashing but it's been due in my opinion. I'm sure he has plenty of happy patients and I'm sure Pats will come on here and say the same soon. Problem is these happy patients may not be happy 20 years down the line. Some will but the nature of MPB means most will be in trouble and with half their donor gone and a teenage lowered hairline, there maybe no way to fix the problem. Pats (or the happy patient) simply can't and doesn't know the long term implications, they can only go off what they see now. What they see (and what Armani's website portrays), are great looking, youthful, perfect hairlines. But any decent doctor can plant half your donor upfront on a guy with minimal loss and it'll look good. If it doesn't then something is very wrong. They should all be looking like GQ models and most (with a little creative lighting) tend to look amazing. It's like Armani is in another league.... but he's not I'm afraid. The sad thing is that Armani is a technically competent doctor and I think he has a good creative eye. He had good strip results (aggressive hairlines aside) but unfortunately he got greedy with the mega session FUE, which maybe his undoing.

"that a low hairline will look bad on an older man" MattJ, I never said that. Some old men do have low hairline and they look great. Lucky buggers..... but they don't have MPB. The point is low hairlines are great IF you can fill the rest of your head with the same density. Problem is, chances are, you can't. There isn't enough hair in the donor especially when you've stuck it all up front.

Sonic, Unfortunately the hair multiplication, neo genesis or whatever it's called nowadays, always comes up. It seems to be the "insurance policy" for being reckless with your donor supply. I believe Armani brings it up quite often. It's part of his sales pitch. Problem is mate..... it doesn't exist. I for one can't base my future happiness/ appearance on something that may or may not happen. It's not rational. It not even a calculated risk.... it's blind hope and a completely reckless gamble. I just can't count on it being commercially available and more to the point, cosmetically viable in my lifetime, just like I wouldn't count on the lottery providing me a living wage.... although at least I can buy a tangible ticket with the lottery. What can hair neo-genisis offer me? Nothing. It no more than research. We've nearly had 20 years of FUE and 10 years BHT and most doctors still can't get it right. But these hairs do exist. They're already there, they don't need growing in a lab, they just need plucking and moving around our bodies. Problem is they are so delicate and complex even in their natural form, that I can't even imagine the struggle it must be to clone an already fragile follicle and then grow a cosmetically acceptable hair that will again continue to grow once implanted. Anyway, I don't know your case and I don't know what your hairloss future holds. You could be fine and I hope you are. Any HT patient from any doctor is vulnerable to future hairloss and runs the risk of leaving the HT hair stranded. My issue is that Armani does tend to plant low, dense hairlines on young patients that will only look good if the native hair remains. It's reckless practice and it can't be argued that in the majority of cases it isn't in their long term interests. I once emailed my photos to Armani for a touch up session. I thought I needed maybe 300-400 grafts to fill in. He quoted me something like 2000 - 2500 grafts. Where he would have put them I have no idea but from that point on I saw that it wasn't my interests he had in mind. In the end I had a postage stamp 200 graft touch up with Dr Feller and it did the job. Armani isn't breaking any rules. It's what a young patient wants and they are adults so hey.... but without a doubt there is more likely to be a serious consequences than if the patient had gone for a more mature hairline with a more conservative doctor. No amount of sales pitch/ hair neo-genesis or whatever can change that. Even Propecia has been guilty of providing to much false security for going aggressive with the hairline. You can't count on that long term either. The fact remains, that which ever way you turn it, you have your hair on your head and all you can do is move it around to try and create a cosmetically satisfactory result to hide your hairloss. That is what you have to play with, no more, no less. It needs to be used wisely.

@ Sonic... Plenty of doctors out there will refuse to lower a hairline or close off the temples but these tend to be doctors with a conscious. These doctors do "focus on the future", that's the essence of a successful hair transplant. A HT is for life and for most of Armani's patients their HT will have to stand up to scrutiny for another 60 odd years. Not an easy task with a teenage hairline. Due to the finite supply of donor hair Armani's approach just isn't a good idea. Anyone with MPB should be aiming for a mature hairline to save grafts for the future. Armani packs in half your donor supply to re-create a youthful hairline and then basically it's fingers crossed for the future. Sure it "can" look good for a few years and it might help with the ladies.... but what about when you are 40 or 50 and your wife's friends can't stop looking at your head because it looks weird. You will care just as much. Now for the lucky ones that don't loose more than their donor can supply, they can keep topping up but topping up itself is a nightmare. The native hair creeps back slowly and unevenly so you only have little gaps at a time to fill in which means multiple mini touch up sessions (would Armani even take these "mini" sessions on??). But you have to do it as the frontal HT hairs will become obvious with no supportive native hairs behind to stop the light passing through. With each touch up your donor becomes significantly more scarred and FUE extraction become harder and much more painful. Transection rates will increase and that aside just playing the numbers game, by creating a low hairline, chances are you won't keep up with the loss. There just isn't enough donor to support a dense low hairline on an average MPB male. There is barely enough to support even a mature hairline. Realistically you'll end up with a dense un-natural Armani hairline with less density behind as your HT supportive native hair leaves and you try in vain to fill in behind. It's the nature of the beast. Armani however has developed a business based on giving young patients exactly what they want. He's acquired a niche audience of young patients who at the first sign of MPB want to recreate their youthful hairline. Is it right?... no, is it hell, but he's not the first and he probably won't be the last. I've been on these forums for nearly 10 years now and I've quietly watched Armani become the force that he is. In all honesty it's been an accident waiting to happen and now his mega session FUE is the icing on the cake. But finally it seems the word (and the results) are starting to come out. Look, everyone knows it's wrong, including his fellow doctors... and that's the only reason he gets bad press. He's always had bad press. He's always had his "haters". His poor representatives Shane, Pats etc get slated on a daily basis. It's not easy working for Armani I'm sure and they are always on the defence. But why is that? You don't see that from Feller, Hasson & Wong, Shapiro etc. Their boys, Spex, Jotronic, Jason etc get a comparatively easy life in this regard. Why? The simple fact is Armani has gone against the grain of what we know is sensible and considerate HT practice. It's nothing new. The error of creating a dense packed low hairline for a young MPB patient has been discussed for years. Does Armani knows that?.... of course he does and unfortunately over the next few years I think more and more of his patients will realises it. It's not really that he found a niche as the niche was always available but most doctors chose not to go there. Armani however cashed in on it and ethics aside, I have to say he's executed it very well. He has a slick website, his patients look like "L'Oreal" adverts and he's branded his pratice like the "GQ" of hair transplants. It sells. It's not realistic but it sells. It appeals to the younger patients and their "dream" of perfect hair. Mature hairlines, pfff, why would you want one of those silly looking things when you can have an Armani hairline !!! It's what you WANT to hear but unfortunately is not what you NEED to hear. I expect 10-20 years from now these forums will be flooded with middle aged men with un- natural low hairlines searching for a solution. I hope I'm wrong but as the history of hair transplantation has shown there is no way around it. In my opinion I'm sad to say Armani will have a fair bit to answer for in the future. Watch this space.

Even Cole's example posted above shows that the transplanted area is darker and thicker than the native hairs behind. This is more obvious in real life than in a photo.

I've done it recently. Grade 2 all over. Donor was fine despite 6 FUE surgeries and the recipient looked good too initially. However I must say that as it started to grow out (1 week) then the transplanted grafts became more obvious. They were darker and thicker and so they did start to stand out. For me anyway, I'd have to keep it very short for it to look right.

If you ever find yourself across the channel, Merck Proscar is readily available in most pharmacies in Europe. I pick mine up in Spain when I'm over there for ??22 a pack. Great price.

yes. twice. much better doc out there in my opinion. not recommended.