Hair Tattooing - Scalp Micropigmentation

[Time to do something]

Hey Guys,

 

I thought I'd post an update on my long seemingly never ending saga. After two hair transplants with a surgeon that provided very poor results I went to Ron Shapiro in Minneapolis and had two more. I'm happy to say Dr. Shapiro's work has been a success. I am eight months into my second surgery. My understanding is second, third or fourth surgeries take longer for results to show than the first. I'm giving myself 14 months until I will say I'm seeing the final result and there will probably be some maturing of the hair even after that.

 

Because so many grafts were lost in my first two surgeries I'm tapped out for donor hair. I believe I'm right at the cusp of having a cosmetically acceptable appearance. However, I'm considering a light tatooing in the event the final result isn't quite dense enough to provide the appearance of more density. I visited a company while I was in Minneapolis having my last hair transplant. I was not impressed. They were far more worried about me signing on the dotted line than answering my questions. When I finally told them I would go no further until my questions were answered the conversation shut down. They answered all of my questions to my satisfaction except one.

 

I asked if the tatooing could be removed with a laser one day if I needed to do so for some unforseen reason without damaging the hair follicle. They would not answer that. After completing a little more research after my surgery on the hair tatooing subject I discovered there was a coalition approved surgeon in California offering hair tatooing. Does anyone have his name or another coalition doctor who is offering that service? I would feel far more comfortable going to a doctor for that service than a tattoo artist for many reasons. Thanks.

 

Relevant article inserted by moderator: Hair Loss Treatment: Is Scalp Micropigmentation a Legitimate Hair Restoration Solution?

[TakingThePlunge]

Time to do something,

 

Dr. Rassman has been offering scalp micropigmentation in his L.A. office for a year now.. For more information see the following article:

 

Dr. William Rassman now Offering Scalp Micro-Pigmentation (SMP) at his Los Angeles Office

[Dutch]

Sorry to hear that your first two ops weren't successful, 5k and it was a poor result?

Dr Rassman has an ocean of experience.

[Time to do something]

Sorry to hear that your first two ops weren't successful, 5k and it was a poor result?

Dr Rassman has an ocean of experience.

 

 

Yes my first doctor did a terrible job. I went to numerous well respected doctors for opinions and they agreed the results were not what they should have been for the number of grafts placed. The doctor didn't even refund my money. He beleived he did a good job. Shortly after that his membership here was revoked because others had complaints as well. My last two surgeries with Ron Shapiro in Minneapolis have turned out better. The problem is so many of my grafts were lost in the first two failed surgeries, that Dr. Shapiro had a finite number of grafts to work with before my donor hair supply was exhausted. He did what he could with what he had to work with. The results are far better than with the first doctor but may not quite get the level of density that I believe would be cosmetically acceptable. For that reason I'm considering the option of a light scalp tattooing to beef up the appearance of density a little. I might add that Dr. Shapiro did my TWO hair transplants FREE because he followed my case with the previous doctor and knew I hadn't obtained the results I should have.

[Davis91]

TTDS,

 

I have been researching the company you refer to as well, Good Look Ink. in Minneapolis regarding SMP (or their equivalent). Indeed they go very, very hard on the sales pitch front. They have some good photos of scar repair patients but both they (and other similar companies) come up way short on videos of the same for scar patients. They just posted a new video and again, the actual amount of time (very little) that they spend on showing the scar post procedure in a video says something about the approach. There are a lot of unknowns with this stuff and I am a little surprised that Dr. Shapiro is endorsing this particular company (or at least it seems that they are based on Good Look Ink.'s videos). Maybe someone from Dr. Shapiro's office can comment on their current relationship with GLI.

[scar5]

Time2do

 

Agree with your sentiments 100% and in a similar position. GLI are aggressive in marketing and while that is not bad in itself, we need a lot more from them if they can convince us. Video is a joke, I'm sorry to say. I hope they post better videos. Showing a scar that way.

 

Have to cast the net further and wider, and push all of them to answer more questions.

 

HIS has a conservative approach, in marketing and technique, but they seem skin head focused.

 

Tatts are 2 dimensional but they can help with density. Anyone can see that by trying a .8mm marker and see the difference it makes.

[Janna]

TTDS,

 

I am a little surprised that Dr. Shapiro is endorsing this particular company (or at least it seems that they are based on Good Look Ink.'s videos). Maybe someone from Dr. Shapiro's office can comment on their current relationship with GLI.

 

Hi,

 

SMG does not endorse any particular clinic for SMP but GLI benefits by being very close in proximity to our clinic. We feel SMP can be a useful tool for the right candidates, especially those that are "tapped out" of donor supply. We've referred some of these patients to GLI to research for themselves. GLI have been pushing Shapiro Medical to endorse their facility, however, we're not comfortable at this stage since we're still researching the technique itself and the long term results of it. In researching, Dr. Ron Shapiro visited Dr. Rassman's clinic just two weeks ago. Dr. Shapiro was impressed with what he saw and certainly appreciated Dr. Rassman's time and information on SMP.

 

Davis09, we looked through some of GLI videos and saw in the HT scar repair section where a patient of SMG talks about us. Are there any other mention of Shapiro Medical on GLI site? If so, could you send me link(s)? Thanks.

 

Hi TTDS,

 

I mentioned to Dr. Ron about your post on SMP - he said to say "hi" and also wanted me to mention that he's happy that you are checking into Dr. Rassman's SMP work. Glad you are able to notice growth from your last ht surgery. You are right, there is another 5-6 months of growth. Hope you are doing well. - Best regards from all of us at SMG.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Janna

[aaron1234]

Hi Janna! Would love to hear Dr. Ron's thoughts on Dr. Rassman's SMP! I know he posted a lengthy review on inking a few months back - just curious if any of his thoughts/concerns have changed after his visit. Hope all is well!

[scar5]

Dr. Rassman's SMP! I know he posted a lengthy review on inking a few months back

 

This is what you are talking about?

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/161422-scalp-micropigmentation-done-dr-william-rassman-nhi.html

 

Top guy is just about me, hair wise, maybe more crown, but a subtle change of light could be critical

Bottom guy just poor, because of different head angles.

 

Janna,

Great to read your comments about this. It is encouraging to see your clinic is trying to learn more about this technique.

Edited March 6, 2012 by scar5
Found the link I requested?

[scar5]

1. Listened to Spencer try to discuss Tattoo/Pigmentation

2. Bald Truth Radio Show, Episode 20, title: Something like, "Tattoo Scalp"

3. Don't hold your breath. 1:45 show, must wait until 1:05 before topic breached

3. Disappointing

4. Spencer allows Joe to talk him out of the most promising part of conversation

5. That being the prospect of tatts offering lower density FUEs a fighting chance

6. Instead Joe gets Spencer to agree that low density FUEs are BS. So what, and..?

7. Ignores the crucial part, that tatts could help make this idea real and even

8. Spencer's meandering style pleasant but too easy to move off target.

9. Instead allows Joe to tell him things like, "If you are going to have your hair so short, then why have a hair transplant"

10. Spencer tries to suggest that ink could augment hair, but conversation drifts

11. They talk about blue heads

12. Joe says they don't look good close up. I agree, caveat: "with no hair"

13. The no hair plus tatt is delivered a crushing blow - and thank you to both Joe and Spencer here - for pointing out, 'How are you going to feel wondering what they are wondering"

14. I'm not bagging Joe, but Spencer, a skeptic, for the right reasons, is just is too accommodating. And why wouldn't he be. I know, I know.

15. It's worth checking out.

[NEWHAIRPLEASE]

I also would love to see more SMP work and examples....I was on Dr Rassmans site the other day...I guess Im confused on this: Maybe someone can clear this up

 

Is there no benefit for SMP if you don't wear your hair short? I know Dr Rassman says cut your hair every few days so Im just wondering..

[Blake Bloxham]

I find SMP (scalp micropigmentation) very interesting. Frankly, I'm still waiting (eagerly) to see what type of role it ends up playing in modern hair restoration, but I do think it may have a place.

 

I've thought about the process in the past, and I always thought it would be interesting to further investigate non-permanent ink; something to augment lower density hair restoration sessions, but not remain forever (which means it could be redone on a periodic basis, but not stay forever if styles changed or aging altered hair color/tone).

 

However, I'm pleased to see New Hair Institute/Dr. Rassman investigate the technique further and I'm hoping we see more SMP cases presented on the forums.

 

Additionally, Janna and Spex, I'm interested to hear more of your respective opinions on the matter!

[aaron1234]

I always thought it would be interesting to further investigate non-permanent ink; something to augment lower density hair restoration sessions, but not remain forever (which means it could be redone on a periodic basis, but not stay forever if styles changed or aging altered hair color/tone).

 

That's a very interesting take. We often discuss the ink fading as a negative aspect of SMP. But maybe the non-permanency of the ink could leave more options down the road.

 

NHP, I think Dr. Rassman is referring to those with shaved heads. There are patients of his who do SMP and keep their hair long - however, the color of inking for this approach would be different than if they shaved their heads.

[NEWHAIRPLEASE]

Aaron

Thanks for clearing that up...I was wondering...seems like it could be a good thing!!

[scar5]

There are patients of his who do SMP and keep their hair long - however, the color of inking for this approach would be different than if they shaved their heads.

 

...But would it?? How do you know this?

 

Why I ask is this.

 

Rassman's FAQ on SMP tells us that hair under the skin, no matter what color the hair assumes as it grows and is exposed to light, it remains is a dull grey blob. One assumes (but doesn't read) that on that basis, colors for inks are chosen. So if the grown hair turns grey, for example, the mismatch is not as bad as it might seem to be.

 

I have seen women, with '60s beehive haircuts and SMP in photographs (I know pics are deceiving) and I wonder, what the color choice rationale was based on and I have no idea in those cases.

 

When I asked about this, I was told, I would be given a light tone for scars, which suit a skinhead match, (which at the back, was fine) and that on top, there would be more scope for graduation to suit hair length. And guess what, when I got there, they said, nah...it must be uniform, or graduated to reflect hair cut very, very short. This is not Rassman, I'm talking about.

 

It is a tricky situation, because a shade used to match skinhead, would be diminished as hair grows. But damn it, it seems to look promising.

 

But here is the thing. The SMP artist at Rassman, and we assume Rassman has better things to do than have a tattoo gun in his hand, might err conservatively before delivering the final blow. I bet he/she does, if he wants to protect Rassman from bad publicity if the client wants to change hair length exposing a horrible mismatch of tones.

 

Must be ready for the bait-and-switch here. 'Yeah, just come and pay and we'll figure it out on the day" type scheme.

[Davis91]

This is an excellent post. These questions are critical towards getting some answers from the SMP places and will help push developments in the field (I hope). The idea of a safe, semi-permanent ink is very, very interesting, both in covering scars and covering the whole scalp. There is also the subject of pricing. Scar5, you might have more information on this, but I have been quoted some high prices just for the strip scar ($2500 for example for 31 CM2 strip) vs. $5000 for the whole head. However, I think the issue of technique and also safety are far more relevant in the short term. It would also be great to get some examples on this forum for commentary by the experts and forum members.

[aaron1234]

...But would it?? How do you know this?

 

From Rassman's blog:

 

SMP with Long Hair - Balding Blog

 

"In a minority of cases we do use SMP in between the hair to make it look fuller. In effect, this is coloring your scalp to diminish the contrast between hair color and scalp color. If you do this, you will need to keep your hair longer (5cm+ or so) so that it would not look like you tattooed your scalp. This method is only recommended if you are never going to cut your hair short (for life), because if you shave or cut your hair short it will not look right."

 

"If you keep your hair long and we use your dark brown pigment to give you fullness, cutting your hair short later will cause the different color to stand out. If you want some permanent color to your scalp while keeping your hair long, it’s doable, but not advised for everyone."

[scar5]

Aaron, excellent!

I hadn't checked Rassman"a blog for at least a month and it seems they have changed it . And this is a significant change, because now they are qualifying the color choice scheme based on intended hair length. So this is news! And it means we can't have it both ways. You gotta go for short hair tones and then add topic or whatever, if u want to maintain the illusion of full coverage. I know, many will say, "Well, what's the point" and IMO the answer Is that there is a point, based on the assumption that u can cut ur hair as short as u can knowing u have some tone in the patches.

Excellent Aaron, thanks for this! I will go back and check Rassman"s blog before I open my mouth again!

[scar5]

Davis,

Those prices are in the same vicinity of what I was quoted. I know Rassman is also in Korea, (edit: remove Dr Pak, edit: insert Dr Kim) but still got the US dollar price. Don't forget the tax in the UK is a brutal 10 percent on top. It is a ridiculous price of course, but thanks to having strip scars we can make it happen. For scars, u r looking at 3 to 4 30 to 40 minute treatments and a whopping 2500 bucks. Where else could a tattoo artist clinic get paid 20 bucks a minute just for doing one color dots all the same size?

Edited March 8, 2012 by scar5
Dr Kim is in Korea, not Dr Pak,

[Dr. William Rassman1530037930]

We offer scalp micropigmentation (a tattoo essentially that mimics the sutbble of a shaved scalp). We have been doing it close to two years now with some wonderful results (see scalpmicropigment.com).

 

To answer your question about removal of the tattoo with a laser, yes it works reasonably well. We had one patient who had the hairline placed in a position that he was not comfortable with, one that was far too flat without the normal appearing mature hairline. We had it tattooed and then once the hairline was 'erased' we redid it for him. He was more than happy. Hopefully, he will agree to allow us to use his before and after pictures which will appear on the scalpmicropigment.com site when that occurs.

 

William Rassman, M.D.

[Dr. William Rassman1530037930]

Scalp Micropigmentation is not for everyone. We make it a point not to sell this procedure but rather spend considerable time getting to know the problem the SMP is going to treat and the mental state of the patient (is he/she realistic in their expectation). We spend a great deal of time with each SMP prospect because so many of them really don't understand the process and as a good doctor, we must teach the patient as much as diagnose and treat them. We have Open House events every month and at these events our patients (people who had transplants in the past or people who had SMP) come to these events. Last week at the monthly open house, there were three SMP patients there so that prospective candidates can judge, first hand, what it is all about and what they are going to look like after the process is done. We even performed SMP on one of our patients for everyone to see. Nothing is a secret when it comes to good education. It takes hours and hours to do the SMP right. The typical patient who decides to do his entire head and shave it (keeping it shaved or clipped) will take 4-6 hours on the first of what may be 2-3 sessions. The reason for second and third sessions is because the pigment often fades in blotches and we want uniformity so we touch it up again and often again. The web-site scalpmicropigment.com covers the many issue (good and bad) and provides a balanced view of the process.

 

Our best SMP artist is Dr. Jae Pak, himself. It took a long time to learn the process and refine it. We have two additional staff that have mastered it as well and like a hair transplant, the process is a team effort. Also, like a transplant, the process is tedious, very much so.

 

It is very important to educate the patient audience. The doctors also need an education on the benefits of the process. It is not uncommon for us to treat people who have had many hair transplants and have depleted the donor supply. Our work with scars produce fantastic results. With some patients work incomplete (because of poor planning on the transplant surgeons part), the SMP process offers a reasonable alternative way of filling in a thin transplant (pigment between longer hairs). Again, this process is not for everyone. Feel free to write me here on the hair transplant network or to my private email at wrassman@newhair.com.

 

William Rassman, M.D.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Dr. Bill Rassman

[scar5]

From Rassman's blog: "In a minority of cases we do use SMP in between the hair to make it look fuller.

 

So I go to the page for NHI and I still see this,

 

NHI

 

3-4 out of 5 gallery patients with longer hair, and this is 'a minority'?

 

 

 

Anyway, i'm happy Dr. Rassman chimed in here. Encouraging.

 

P.S. I wonder if he would be partial to putting a SMP recipient on the front page of his SMP page and not a buzzed down guy with the disclaimer stating it is not an SMP recipient

[Davis91]

I think it is indeed god of Dr. Rassman to have checked in. I also like the idea of replacing the front picture on his website with an actual patient. But beyond this, to all the SMP places: GIVE US "REAL" VIDEOS OF SCAR REPAIRS--LINGER, MOVE AROUND TO DIFFERENT ANGLES, SHOW IT IN DIFFERENT LIGHTING--STOP GIVING 5 MINUTE VIDEOS WHERE 98% IS ABOUT HOW GREAT YOU WERE TREATED OR YOUR INNER JOURNEY. WE WANT TO SEE RESULTS AND HOW THEY LOOK IN A VARIETY OF SITUATIONS.

[Dr. William Rassman1530037930]

You said: "I think it is indeed god of Dr. Rassman to have checked in". Just for your information, I am not God.

 

If you are indeed intersted in learning about SMP, you should consider a visit to one of our Open House events where you can actually see the results first hand and up close. We are often performing an SMP procedure at these events as well (go to: Upcoming Events - NHI). Thanks for your insights.

 

William Rassman, M.D.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Dr. Bill Rassman

[aaron1234]

Dr. Rassman,

 

Thank you for coming on to the forum to discuss SMP. I'm glad a credible doctor is looking into another viable approach to deal with hair loss. I personally know a lot of HT patients are interested in keeping their hair long and using SMP as a permanent scalp concealer. I definitely look forward to seeing more of those type of SMP patients.