Dr. Wong 6500 Grafts, 1.5 Years Post #2

[TC17]

TE,

 

My opinion is of little consequence, but for what it is worth, I think your face is adequately blocked out. It seems as though you are so angry with Joe and H&W that you are blowing small issues out of proportion. One of the problems with doing that is that it detracts from the man thrust of this topic, and paints you in a bad light. This topic should stay focused on your result. I believe if that is done, you will find that the vast majority of community members will support you.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Balody, that's because TE chose to remove his patient website.

 

For the record, I agree with TC17. In my opinion, TE's face is adequately blocked and is just deflecting the more important issues. I suggest we get this topic back on task and discuss the results instead of sidestepping what really matters.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

 

Bill

[The count Of Baldecristo]

I think if TE doesnt like the pics posted they should be removed! Its not fair to tell him that he should sort it out with Joe. If a patient has something bad to say about a procedure with a doctor then he must give his written consent for the details of his procedure to be shared by other party (the doctor).

 

I never heard moderators saying to a coalition or an advertised doctor its between you and the patient sort it out by yourself usually first consent is needed and at that times you intervene for the doctor so why not now for the patient? I have a feeling that you are somehow acting like you are "bored of him" by wanting to lock the thread or telling him to sort it with Joe.

 

He is unhappy, he has a bad result, he shared it with us, he is a long time poster, he has paid thousands of dollars on the procedure and he wont get a penny back, at least do him the favor and intervene with this coalitions rep (Joe) if the patient doesn't want the pics in question! Maybe his request sounds a bit far stretched but no need to freak him out completely he is been through enough and from what i see the best thing he will get is a... bad luck a pat on the back and go on your way.

Edited June 22, 2011 by The count Of Baldecristo

[Jotronic]

The photos I submitted were no less "de-identified" than any other patient I've shown that wanted their identity preserved. However, I have edited the photos further.

 

For the record, and as documented, TE made claims that we Photoshop our results to make our results look better. Ironically, in one of his emails to me he was demanding that I Photoshop his images.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Baldecristo,

 

Had Joe or the clinic posted photos showing TE's face and the clinic wasn't responding, I would have intervened and removed the photos. In this case however, his face has already been blocked. Removing the photos would be like allowing TE to badmouth the clinic without providing or allowing the necessary evidence. Besides, patients are required to let their physician present their side of the story including pictures. Since Joe has already blocked his face, why should I remove the pictures just because he's not happy with them? This makes no sense! TE knew our policies and rules before he created this topic and he chose to post.

 

All that to say I did speak with Joe yesterday and he agreed to try and make TE mire comfortable by further blocking any remaining facial features.

 

Now let's bring this thread back on topic.

 

Bill

[The count Of Baldecristo]

the only thing that i make out from all this is that maybe consultants shouldn't oversell the procedure before the final result comes out because this surgery is very unpredictable and there are many unsatisfied patients even from H&W. Expectations should not be raised and telling to patients you gonna look better than him or better than that one.

 

Also i think the before and after pics should be the same color because i ve also noticed that the H&W after pics look lighter in color. there is no excuse for that and it seems they are misleading. I think TE is just stating the obvious not slander or offend, the best way to answer back is by having same color photos. you already make nice HD videos so it should be simple to do that and wont leave any suspicion in the air

 

And if i dare to make a suggestion, we should be more supportive to the patients in here. Some rush in to take the clinics side and trying to put blame on the patients. Do clinics need protection from posters, i know you are all day here posting but i think they have consultants for this job. the only thing you achieve is making some of us who are less active to have to type to point out the obvious. In the end we forget something...most business say the customer is always right and if he is not happy there must be a reason. He is the one that paid 15000-25000 for his procedures not you! I always hear from physicians that there is only very few failures. If they are really so few then maybe a refund should be a norm for this "unlucky" few. I also don't think this result is what it should be for all these grafts!

 

I am also glad that patients come forward and speak of their negative experiences . I prefer to be afraid of a bad outcome than actually having one because none talks about it and i go in ignorant. Also my money is very important to me and these procedures cost a lot i am not that thrilled that if things go wrong the best i can get is a discount for my next procedure to fix the first one. I can understnd TE's anger is not the best feeling to pay all these money and still be unhappy you feel robbed! I think refunds are only fair even if TE went online. If a refund is given only if you don't go online then its like buying someones silence

 

thanx TE for your feedback and good luck. though is not what you wanted i think you will find a way to make it look good because all things said it doesnt look to me that bad to freak out about . Just accept a less than great reality and you ll be happy, there is no such thing as perfection in transplants no matter what you hear in the sale phase

Edited June 22, 2011 by The count Of Baldecristo

[Guest Ian512017155]

The Emperor) my advice to you would be stop bickering on this site about everything, because nothing good is going to come from it. Now I am going to take your story at face value and if everything you said on here is true, then you need to seek advice and opinions from friends and family. The bottom-line is if everything you stated is TRUE regarding your results, post follow-up, communication, professional conduct, the reveling of your identity, plus all the thousands of dollars you have in this situation, then I would get an attorney and have them commutate with the clinic directly. Because it’s clear by your post that you’re getting nowhere fast. That’s what I would do; I wouldn’t waste one my sec on this site bickering back and forth.

[The count Of Baldecristo]

The Emperor) my advice to you would be stop bickering on this site about everything, because nothing good is going to come from it. Now I am going to take your story at face value and if everything you said on here is true, then you need to seek advice and opinions from friends and family. The bottom-line is if everything you stated is TRUE regarding your results, post follow-up, communication, professional conduct, the reveling of your identity, plus all the thousands of dollars you have in this situation, then I would get an attorney and have them commutate with the clinic directly. Because it’s clear by your post that you’re getting nowhere fast. That’s what I would do; I wouldn’t waste one my sec on this site bickering back and forth.

 

 

sounds like a good advice but probably he signed the consent forms and he wont have any luck. I don't wanna be negative but sadly i think his only consolation will be that he shared his story.

[bonkerstonker]

The count my personal experience with jotronic the hw and consultant was very good and I felt he was very honest and real. I was in no way oversold the expectations or told anything misleading infact he is extremely real about things! I find it hard to believe anyone at hw told the emperor he would have a ht better than jotronics like emperor says!

[Bill - Seemiller]

For the record, while we continue to evaluate surgeons based on their consistency in providing excellent results, this community isn't here to resolve every single dispute between physicians and patients. Moreover, the publishers are not and cannot be the arbitrators of all truth. We do however, provide a venue for patients to share their genuine experiences and photos and invite both the patient and the physician to join in the discussion regarding any concerns or disputes. The adult members of the community are then free to decide what's true and what's not.

 

In some cases, the publishers of this community will do further investigation on cases presented by concerned patients to ensure a physician's practice remains state of the art. No physician has gained tenure and those who don't continue to produce only the best results consistently will be removed from recommendation. After all, patient feedback is critical in evaluating hair transplant surgeons, including those already recommended by this community. In this case however, I see no reason to reconsider Hasson and Wong's recommendation or Coalition membership.

 

While TE's results may not be a "wow" result, his hair looks vastly improved from his before state. Like others have said, another procedure with Dr. Wong or another elite surgeon will give him even more density and very possibly, satisfy his concerns.

 

Regarding all the specific "he said, she said" issues, none of us were privy to the conversations that took place behind the scenes. I think it's highly unfortunate that there is such dissention between TE and Hasson and Wong, but this is up to them to resolve.

 

As for Baldecristo's response, I agree with providing support for patients, especially those who aren't happy. But why do members feel they have to take sides? Frankly, more members end up "siding" with the patient and badmouthing a clinic when they're less than happy with their result, not the other way around. This in turn causes other members to stand by and defend their clinic, which is commonly referred to as "cheerleading". But I propose that the educated patient members of this community collaborate with the dedication physicians of the field rather than stand against each other. Why can't everyone work together for the good of patients?

 

This can occur if members provide support for the patient while showing respect to the physicians recommended by this community who have earned their excellent reputation.

 

In this particular case, I would suggest the folllowing possibilities or a combination thereof:

 

1. TE's expectations of his results were too high. Hasson and Wong may or may not have assisted in creating these unrealistic expectations.

 

2. TE's growth was less than expected and desired. It's hard to tell by the photos as to whether or not TE had optimal growth. However, in my opinion, with fine calliber hair and only 6400 grafts on a Norwood 5A, his results don't look bad. Another procedure with Dr. Wong or another well respected surgeon would help give him the kind of results he wants and deserves.

 

3. Problems with Communication: One of the leading cause of problems between patients and physicians is a lack of adequate communication surrounding expected results, expectations and concerns. Fault can usually be pointed back to both the clinic and the patient.

 

In my opinion, all of the above may be true. But nothing above indicates that TE or anyone at Hasson and Wong should be treated with anything less than respect. TE is an unhappy patient who we should sympathize with. Dr. Wong is a world renowned surgeon who earned his excellent reputation. Joe is a long time member of this community and while he may work for Hasson and Wong, his only real interest is providing genuine help and feedback to hair loss sufferers. I see no reason to throw anyone under the bus and pass blame on anyone.

 

My only hope is moving forward, that TE and Hasson and Wong put their previous issues aside and begin working together on this. If TE would rather undergo another procedure with another physician to obtain the density he wants and deserves, then I encourage him to do this. After all, undergoing an evaluation by another well respected physician for a second opinion is never a bad idea.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[M1A1]

TE,

 

I would encourage you to give serious thought TC17'S advice.

 

In addition, I am surprised that Dr. Wong has chimed in to possibly provide clarity to the surgery that TE underwent.

[Jotronic]

BonkerStonker, thank you.

 

I think that a few facts are being overlooked (or ignored) by a few of the members and in no way should our customer service toward TE be in question. I was supportive of TE from the very beginning as has the clinic been in general. The support was not only before the procedure and during but also once he returned home with his first email two days post-op from HT#1 with dozens more to follow. All correspondence was polite, respectful and civil. It was five months after his second surgery that TE hung up on me which was, in my opinion, unnecessary if not grossly premature.

 

As early as six months post-op from his first surgery I told TE that if he was not happy with the result then we would offer, at the very least, a partial refund (yeah, I found the email) or do the procedure again at no charge to address any areas of concern. We followed through and took care of business AS WE SAID WE WOULD. There is a long paper trail of support than cannot be refuted.

 

Some of the issues TE has brought up have never been brought up before by ANYONE in over nine years of being open and public on the forums. No one has said that their crown is noticeably larger due to the strip. No one has said I made them point their head in specific ways to make their result look better than it actually is. No one with aggressive loss has said that Dr. Wong promised them they'd have a result better than mine in one session. No one has said that Dr. Wong does what he wants and doesn't listen to the patient. No one has said Dr. Wong told them he was too busy to talk to them the morning after surgery. No one has dealt with us for over four years and then three years after their first surgery decide to accuse us of manipulating our photos with Photoshop to deceive the public. It is not a case of some people saying a few of these things. No patient has EVER said ANY of these things so how is it that ONE person says ALL of these things and more?

 

Situations like this are very unfortunate but this highlights a credibility issue especially when nothing that TE has shared can really be documented but EVERYTHING that I have shared can.

 

Anyone can say that their result is not up to their expectations. We've always encouraged our patients to share, more than any other clinic. However, no one should turn us into a punching bag with undocumented and untrue stories of deceit and failure.

 

The underlying and simple fact that trumps EVERYTHING is that had The Emperor continued to communicate with us we would have been more than happy to continue addressing his concerns and work with him to come to some sort of resolution for his satisfaction. Unfortunately he decided to take this in a different direction that no one would ever expect to lead to an outcome of satisfaction.

[orlhair1]

Jotronic, your summary makes sense. I believe the issue has gotten way out of hand and clearly Dr. Wong has a great reputation in this field, so it is a shame to see all of the mudslinging. I really am not saying this to take sides and I am sorry that TE feels the way he does, but there is no way that H & W could have the reputation they have if they treated their patients the way things have been portrayed here.

[TheEmperor]

As early as six months post-op from his first surgery I told TE that if he was not happy with the result then we would offer, at the very least, a partial refund (yeah, I found the email) or do the procedure again at no charge to address any areas of concern. We followed through and took care of business AS WE SAID WE WOULD. There is a long paper trail of support than cannot be refuted.

 

 

Let me know the date of the email and I'll see if the email is legit. In fact, please forward it to me, you have my current email. Once I receive the original email from you, I will investigate and report to the forum on the truth of the email.

 

And just to be clear, dont print out the email, save it to a PDF and forward that in an attachment like you did one time before. Just go into your mail client, and forward the original mail to me. Simple. I want the actual email, not a PDF.

 

Some of the issues TE has brought up have never been brought up before by ANYONE in over nine years of being open and public on the forums. No one has said that their crown is noticeably larger due to the strip.

 

This is not true. If you do enough research on the forums, you will find a few other patients who have made the same claim. Check on HLH. I am perhaps the only person who was concerned about this possibility and had the foresight to take before photos from directly behind so I could compare to the after photos.

 

My situation is perhaps unique because I was a class of NW5 where the loss was not visible from behind. My expectation was that I would be able to comb the back rim hair forward to help cover the crown. However, as it was pulled down close to an inch, this is no longer possible.

 

Most people who have seen my photos and seen me in person agree that the back was pulled down.

 

I ask anyone to perform this test: While looking in a mirror, do the scalp exercise and pull down on the back hair. You will see your forehead slide up. The skin slides across the surface of the head. If strip removal didn't expand the bald spot, then that would mean only the skin in the vicinity of the scar stretched. If that were the case, when you pullled down in the back, your forehead skin would not move up.

 

I will concede that there may be variations in physiology, which is why I invite forum members to perform this test and report their findings.

 

No one has said I made them point their head in specific ways to make their result look better than it actually is.

 

 

As far as I know, no one besides me has described the meticulous detail in which you take your photos. You asked me to make very minute adjustments to the tilt of my head while taking the photos.

 

No one with aggressive loss has said that Dr. Wong promised them they'd have a result better than mine in one session.

 

 

First, I never said you made the claim that it would only take one session. So you are putting words into my mouth.

 

I have made the claim that Dr Wong said my result would be "better" than yours. I reported this in multiple threads. Its been out there for over a year and this is the first time I hear you objecting to the statement.

 

When doctor Wong meant "better", I presumed that would mean that I would have at least as many styling options as you, which I do not. And I assumed the hairline would look as natural. It does not. These are subjective impressions, but I notice you don't have evenly spaced "jaggies" in your hairline.

 

My loss is/was significantly less than yours and my hair characteristics were described as similar. When Wong said my result would be better in the in person consultation, that is the reason I scheduled an appointment. As you know, I had already cancelled out of one appointment because I had concerns on the quality of the result. I wanted some assurance I would get a great result and Wong gave me enough positive feedback to get me to book an appointment.

 

 

No one has said that Dr. Wong does what he wants and doesn't listen to the patient. No one has said Dr. Wong told them he was too busy to talk to them the morning after surgery.

 

 

I told him I wanted a symmetrical hairline. I did not get this. He drew in temple closure in the first procedure which he did not plant. After my hair cleaning the day after surgery, I asked Dr Wong, "do you have a few minutes, there are some things we need to discuss", at which point he told me he was with a patient. He was in the cutting phase, so I can see he was busy, and I wasnt going to hang out in the office for an hour as I had a plane to catch. I don't know how much less he could have listened to me.

 

No one has dealt with us for over four years and then three years after their first surgery decide to accuse us of manipulating our photos with Photoshop to deceive the public. It is not a case of some people saying a few of these things. No patient has EVER said ANY of these things so how is it that ONE person says ALL of these things and more?

 

 

This is partially true. I did not bring up the image brightness manipulation before, but I know some other patients have. You yourself mentioned you had answered to this criticism in other threads.

 

 

 

Situations like this are very unfortunate but this highlights a credibility issue especially when nothing that TE has shared can really be documented but EVERYTHING that I have shared can.

 

In my blog, there are comments from other forum members who agree the bald sport was made larger by the surgery. My photos have also accurately detailed the poor yield, with photos of individual hairs and hair counts per sq. cm.

 

Everything I have claimed is documented in photos. The only things I cant document are the things that Wong and you said in person. I was not recording our conversations.

 

 

 

 

Anyone can say that their result is not up to their expectations. We've always encouraged our patients to share, more than any other clinic. However, no one should turn us into a punching bag with undocumented and untrue stories of deceit and failure.

 

 

I have documented everything in the photos in my blog.

 

The underlying and simple fact that trumps EVERYTHING is that had The Emperor continued to communicate with us we would have been more than happy to continue addressing his concerns and work with him to come to some sort of resolution for his satisfaction. Unfortunately he decided to take this in a different direction that no one would ever expect to lead to an outcome of satisfaction.

 

The second surgery was to give you a chance to make things right. Due to poor growth, the jaggies are still visible as shown in my blog. I have shown photographs of poor yield where the transplanted hairs either did not grow or grew in much reduced diameter.

 

Because there had never been an offer of a refund, there was no incentive for me to work that angle. I decided I was never going to set foot in your office again because of evidence that some of your techs are not getting the same yield as others. Rather than throw away more grafts at your clinic, I decided to share with the forum the reality of surgery with Hasson and Wong. I have detailed the sales techniques (oversell) and how some of the technical limitations of the surgery are glossed over. Hopefully this will help other patients to make better informed decisions. When you say "we expect great things for you", they should know this is how it may turn out.

Edited June 24, 2011 by TheEmperor

[lorenzo]

Jotronic, your summary makes sense. I believe the issue has gotten way out of hand and clearly Dr. Wong has a great reputation in this field, so it is a shame to see all of the mudslinging. I really am not saying this to take sides and I am sorry that TE feels the way he does, but there is no way that H & W could have the reputation they have if they treated their patients the way things have been portrayed here.

 

 

First of all orhair congrad on choosing a great doctor and I look forward to your upcoming results. I agree 100% with what you say, very well said!!

[The count Of Baldecristo]

The count my personal experience with jotronic the hw and consultant was very good and I felt he was very honest and real. I was in no way oversold the expectations or told anything misleading infact he is extremely real about things! I find it hard to believe anyone at hw told the emperor he would have a ht better than jotronics like emperor says!

 

 

Bonker i am glad for you. the thing is that that when a happy patient post his result and an unhappy one comes in and post his bad experience or bad karma with the clinic in that thread then he is accused of hijacking the thread and he will be asked to stop it by the moderators which i think is correct.

 

But there is a flip side to that coin and i don't see that happening the other way around. When you come in and post your positive experience or good karma with the clinic as leverage to the bad experience of TE who started this thread then you are hijacking also. TE wants to make a point and its his thread. If i want to hear your happy story i will find your thread, its as simple as that.

 

Maybe unhappy patients do that to damage the clinic reputation and credibility but what the happy ones do is damaging the unhappy posters experience and credibility in favor of the clinic. Maybe TE if it wasn't for all this cheerleading postings and the clinics attitude "you went online so now piss off" would get a refund for a poor result, maybe other patients in the future would be able to claim something but i feel like you are stripping that away from them with all the cheerleading posts and in the end we get worst service from the clinics

 

I think the moderators in the interest of keeping this site even more objective should apply that rule to everyone not just the unhappy patients but also the happy ones. You love your clinic thats fine but there is another human being, an other hairloss sufferer who also paid alot of money and still suffers cause his experience was much different to yours, its his thread. We are here for each other not for cheerleading clinics and consultants, they do a job they offer a service and they get paid very well for this, god bless them.

 

by the way bonker i only used your post as an example, i am describing a phenomenon its not personally about you i am sure you understand.

Edited June 24, 2011 by The count Of Baldecristo

[bonkerstonker]

Listen mate this is what forums are about if you have something good to say you say it if you have something bad to say you say it it's that simple! If you don't want other peoples perspective don't use forums! Most people are fair on here like my self thats why i do not want this thread locking and most of the other so called hasson and wong cheerleaders have said the same. No offence mate.

[bonkerstonker]

The emperor like I've said before I'm sad that you haven't got what you wanted hair loss is a bitch and I know how upsetting it is.

 

I'm not sure how Dr Wong cuts his donor but it's likely to be like Dr Hassons. I'm a nw5a in the exact same pattern as you but much thicker and Dr Hasson did not pull the top side of the scar down at all he pulls the bottom up to meet the top like he has done mine and many others which has not lowered my crown loss so it's highly likely if Dr Wong does that too it's impossible to make your crown loss appear lower. I'm sure Joe will be able to confirm if that's true or not.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Baldecristo,

 

There is a clear distinction between someone responding to a topic with their own experience to benefit the overall content of the topic and someone attempting to hijack a topic and turn it away from the original topic starter and towards them.

 

For your reference, the moderators of this community have applied the same principle to posters who've shared positive experiences with a clinic on a topic started by someone else. When there is a clear attempt to to steer a thread away from the topic starter and onto themselves, this is called hijacking. In each case this has occurred (whether a happy or unhappy patient is attempting to hijack a topic), they've been asked to create their own topic to share their own experience. If they refuse and continue hijacking topics, these members are suspended. I typically issue a warning first because sometimes they're unaware they've even done this. But those who refuse to follow the rules or heed warnings will be suspended. That's the way forumns work.

 

In this case however, Bonkerstonker kept his post relevant to the topic and simply added his opinion to this topic based on his own experience. There is nothing wrong with this. Thus, I will not be removing his post.

 

Having moderated this community for over 4 years, I have removed several agenda driven posters which includes those who have an unfair agenda to tarnish a clinic's well earned reputation and blatant shills promoting a clinic - including fictitious posters pretending to be genuine patients. Agenda driven posters (whether they're shamelessly promoting a clinic or unfairly maligning physicians, clinics or other patients) are not interested in benefiting this community, but are out to deceive and harm. Note however, that genuine posters (happy or not) who follow the rules of this community are not removed.

 

This community is about balance. The vast majority of patients from leading physicians have positive experiences to share. However, we certainly allow those who are unhappy to post their concerns, as long as they're legitimate. But I'm not going to remove legitimate posts from members on this topic sharing their genuine positive experiences as long as they stay on topic and don't make attempts to hijack the topic.

 

Best Regards,

 

Bill

[Jotronic]

The Emperor,

Your last post has some interesting points but again, none of them are documented and you simply ask other forum members to tug on their own scalps for a very anecdotal experiment and then to search on another forum for someone (our patient? Someone else's?) that has the same problem. Ultimately, nothing is documented.

 

 

However, as I said, I have the email that you asked me to forward for verification. Better yet, I'm posting a screenshot for all to see.

 

 

 

 

This proves that I did not lie to you and exonerates the issue of the refund.

[Bill - Seemiller]

At this point, it's obvious that "TheEmperor" and Hasson and Wong are not going to come to any real understanding or agreement regarding specific "he said, she said" issues surrounding his procedure and results. Both parties have now had ample time to share their side of the story and photos have been presented as evidence on both sides. Thus, the adult members of this community have all the information they need to draw their own conclusions.

 

As I've said previously, the publishers cannot be the arbitrators of all truth. However, given Hasson and Wong's world renowned reputation for providing only the best results and excellent customer care, I don't feel this case warrants any further investigation of Hasson and Wong regarding their recommendation after obtaining the details of this case.

 

At this point, I strongly encourage TE to consider finding another leading physician he can trust to discuss his options moving forward.

 

Keeping a community balanced and fair isn't always easy. Unfortunately, it's not always possible to please everyone. And while I'm a firm believer and advocate of free speech and allowing the free flow of information, allowing this discussion to continue and repeating the same unresolvable issues over and over again only creates more dissention and keeps members from participating on other important topics. Thus, now that all the information has already been presented, it's time to move on and close this topic.

 

TE, thank you for presenting your experience and photos. I now wish you the best of luck resolving your concerns offline and seeking the advice of another well respected physician about your options moving forward.

 

Onwards and Upwards,

 

Bill